Forums > Photography Talk > Whats you're definition of a TF shoot?

Photographer

Kent Art Photography

Posts: 2929

Ashford, England, United Kingdom

Kari lee Peterson wrote:
Just to throw out a model's point of view-
... the shots that appeal to or improve a photographers portfolio are not always the same ones that are advantageous to a model. In a model's portfolio the technical merits are more or less afterthoughts- in a photographer's they are paramount. This makes perfect sense since your portfolio is meant to be representative of your mastery if your craft. It seems only fair that both party's have some say in the final editing process. Trade implies mutual benefit.
... why do we want unedited shots? 1) Some of us would like to practice our photo-shopping skills- not a criminal offense last time I checked. That said I never post any of my edits without getting the okay from the photog...unless of course they do not have the due dilligence to have me sign a release. 2) Everyone in here seems to be a competent if not a phenomenal photog/ photoshop wizard... you are the exceptions - not the rule. I've gotten some truly horrendous edits on what were decent shots...
...can we please refrain from the superiority complexes? You put a lot of time into your craft- so do many of the models. You spend hours editing- she spends hours at the gym. You spend money on equipment- she spends money on appearance and wardrobe. It takes two to tango...

as for the OP's situation... did you ask the model in question if she liked the shots or your edits? If the answer is yes- then you have more than fulfilled your part of the TF arrangement...if not perhaps ask her if she'd like to choose and image or two for you to edit- or you may discover that what she wants is a little extra editing. I have two scars on my stomach that I'm incredibly self conscious of- photogs don't always edit them out...see my point?

thats enough drivel for the evening....

much aloha!

Much wisdom.

I would only add that some models like to see all the pics so they can work out which poses work best for them and which ones should be forgotten.

Nov 04 12 09:07 am Link

Photographer

ArtisticGlamour

Posts: 3846

Phoenix, Arizona, US

This is a copy of my "stock" TF* policy that I communicate (email) to the models that ask about it:

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/collaboration01a-1.jpg

Sure, I may lose the model who's looking for a bazillion random images (good or bad) to include the RAW files and such, but that's okay. Many new models confuse "quantity" with "quality".

The models that do follow up are the ones that like my portfolio enough to trust me and desire to "collaborate", and I always show them my "favorite" images as we shoot (on the back of the camera) so they have an idea of how we're doing and what's working/coming in the final edits. 15-20 "good" images are more than a fair trade of your time.

I don't buy the idea that because "she spends hours at the gym" that I owe her hours of my editing time. She maybe spent (maybe) 2-3hrs getting "ready" for the shoot...now you spend 2-3hrs cropping/editing/resizing 15-20 images...a VERY fair trade.

Nov 04 12 04:47 pm Link

Photographer

GNapp Studios

Posts: 6209

Somerville, New Jersey, US

If you want to be successful, you need to meet or beat customer expectations.

The best way to find out customer expectations is to ask them beforehand and agree on what they are.

Nov 04 12 04:55 pm Link

Photographer

ArtisticGlamour

Posts: 3846

Phoenix, Arizona, US

GNapp Studios wrote:
If you want to be successful, you need to meet or beat customer expectations.

I would agree in most industries this would be true...however, in internet modelling you have to be careful of the new GWC (Girl With Cellphone-pics) "model" who's unrealistic expectations of YOUR time would drive an ordinary business into the GROUND if you satisfied their unrealistic "expectations".

Often they have expectations of 150 images from a 2hr "trade" shoot...or "oh, and my boyfriend wants the RAW files too, if you don't mind...he knows photoshop..." lol or "I spend hours in the Gym, so...neutral " LOL! The logic is often pretty comical.

You cannot be sucessful if you "give away the farm"...and so you have to "negotiate/modify" (as you said "agree") the customer's "needs" back to TF* reality. Or, charge $$$ for your extra time/RAW files like a successful business.

Nov 04 12 05:03 pm Link

Photographer

Ed Woodson Photography

Posts: 2644

Savannah, Georgia, US

From my Profile:


"What do you take away from the shoot?

*TF* 8 edited images of your choice.  I will post the complete shoot on zenfolio and you may choose those that you like.  Or, you can simply allow me to choose the best 8.
"

I normally give the model the 8 she chooses plus those I like, have edited, and are not among her choices.

This has worked well with models who have worked with me.  And, has probably caused some to not work with me.

It is what it is.

Nov 04 12 05:05 pm Link

Photographer

ArtisticGlamour

Posts: 3846

Phoenix, Arizona, US

Kari lee Peterson wrote:
...why do we want unedited shots? 1) Some of us would like to practice our photo-shopping skills- not a criminal offense last time I checked.

There is the problem, Keri. smile

THIS photographer doesn't want his name attached to someone else's photo-chopping of (legally) HIS image. You can "practice your photoshopping skills" on something else (or go to school for it like many of us). Or, PAY for the images, and chop away. But, that's not part of the usual photographer's TF* package.

Most serious photographers don't want to "give away" control of their "final" images to a model or anyone else, (model's significant other, etc) but instead want to maintain control over exactly what their final images (that have our name attached) end up looking like. You choose that photographer because you like and trust their work.

It would be like the model asking the artist "could I just come around and add a few brushstrokes" to his final painting.

The model comes to the "artist" to paint them...and gets copies of that finished artwork in exchange for their time...not for the artist to provide a bunch of half-done signed "sketches" for the model (or someone else) to finish painting later.

Some artists will do that, I suppose.

Nov 05 12 12:47 am Link

Photographer

RKD Photographic

Posts: 3265

Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

Kari lee Peterson wrote:
... why do we want unedited shots? 1) Some of us would like to practice our photo-shopping skills- not a criminal offense last time I checked...

If you want images to practice on - hire the photographer and buy the images - or better still, buy a bloody camera and take your own photos to 'practice' on...

Nov 05 12 01:47 am Link

Photographer

Damon Banner

Posts: 85305

Hayward, California, US

I've only had a few models ask for all photos. 

they were all new models.



the rest, during a TF, know they aren't getting all the photos.  They also don't seek unedited...

i guess this is an old thread!

Nov 05 12 02:38 am Link

Photographer

Eridu

Posts: 623

Boston, Massachusetts, US

1-2 edited images per look, high resolution, watermark remains intact.

End Transmission

Nov 05 12 06:19 am Link

Model

Shandra Stark

Posts: 13612

Los Angeles, California, US

Margaret Hope wrote:
I don't think I have a happy model. I refuse to give her all the photos taken at the scheduled TF shoot... I gave her 8 edited photos!... She tells me all the photographers she has worked with have given her edited and unedited photos.

This is what I told her:


So... what is your definition of a TF shoot?

Any model that wants all images from a shoot: A) has not been doing this long enough to know what's useful B)will probably not be at this long

That said, you need to settle this beforehand.

A lot of models feel entitled, but don't express their expectations until after they're upset.  Knowing this, you should go into all shoots stating either a specific number, or a ballpark number. 

I, personally, never ask, but that's because I trust the people I do trade with to only choose what is best.  I haven't accepted any new trade work in years (just the same people for fun/art), so that's not the norm.  Most models need to be told what to expect.

Nov 14 12 09:02 am Link

Photographer

Tatsu Photography

Posts: 1

Durham, Ontario, Canada

ArtisticGlamour wrote:
This is a copy of my "stock" TF* policy that I communicate (email) to the models that ask about it:

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/collaboration01a-1.jpg

Sure, I may lose the model who's looking for a bazillion random images (good or bad) to include the RAW files and such, but that's okay. Many new models confuse "quantity" with "quality".

The models that do follow up are the ones that like my portfolio enough to trust me and desire to "collaborate", and I always show them my "favorite" images as we shoot (on the back of the camera) so they have an idea of how we're doing and what's working/coming in the final edits. 15-20 "good" images are more than a fair trade of your time.

I don't buy the idea that because "she spends hours at the gym" that I owe her hours of my editing time. She maybe spent (maybe) 2-3hrs getting "ready" for the shoot...now you spend 2-3hrs cropping/editing/resizing 15-20 images...a VERY fair trade.

Oct 11 14 07:02 pm Link

Photographer

Isaiah Brink

Posts: 2118

Charlotte, North Carolina, US

Margaret Hope wrote:
I don't think I have a happy model. I refuse to give her all the photos taken at the scheduled TF shoot... I gave her 8 edited photos!... She tells me all the photographers she has worked with have given her edited and unedited photos.

This is what I told her:


So... what is your definition of a TF shoot?

To answer your question, my definition of a TF shoot is no money will change hands.  Nobody pays for travel, nobody pays hourly rates.  The two of you are trading your time and expertise for images.  In your case, something that should be discussed prior to the vast majority of shoots is will the photographer supply images, and if so, how many and in what time frame.  This would have taken care of your problem.  If she wanted more images, she has the chance to say so, and you have the chance to either accept or make a counter offer as far as the number of images, or to reject their offer.  Both have time to cancel the shoot if they aren't satisfied with the terms.  Hope this helps in the future.

Oct 12 14 08:47 pm Link

Photographer

Bourbon Street

Posts: 186

New Orleans, Louisiana, US

"So... what is your definition of a TF shoot?"


My definition is a "totally f _ _ cked" shoot.

If I have something I want to shoot for my benefit I pay the models. They don't get prints or digital images. To tell you the truth it's worth it to me not to have to be bothered with it afterwards. I will sometimes send them a couple if I feel like it. But what when you want to shoot some experimental ideas and they simply don't turn out to measure up to your standards? Then the model is going to be expecting images that you're not very proud of.

Another idea is to pay the model for their time and if they want images they pay you for them. That's the best way to trade.

Oct 15 14 09:36 pm Link