CGI Images wrote:
Personally I think all the paranoia exists on MM because the vast majority of people here, be it models or photographers are hobbyists that really have never stepped foot in the actual photography business world.  Their source of experience and information is the other equally un-knowledgeable hobbyists and internet experts.

Most of what you read in the forums is anecdotal wivestales rather than comments from people who have actual knowledge.  Your point is very well taken.

That having been said, I think they mean well.

CGI Images wrote:
Personally I think all the paranoia exists on MM because the vast majority of people here, be it models or photographers are hobbyists that really have never stepped foot in the actual photography business world.  Their source of experience and information is the other equally un-knowledgeable hobbyists and internet experts.

ei Total Productions wrote:
Most of what you read in the forums is anecdotal wivestales rather than comments from people who have actual knowledge.  Your point is very well taken.

That having been said, I think they mean well.

Well your much more tactful and optimistic than I am ei, while I agree the majority mean well I still think there is a significant percentage of the women that fear-monger that has more to do with being jealous of younger females than meaning well.  Then a significant portion of the men that are just white knighting for those women.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Wow!  The fear mongering in this thread is mind blowing!     Photographing minors is about as controversial as "flakes and escorts!"   For 20 years I never knew anyone had problems with such things until the Internet came along! 

But that very internet IS the problem, Patrick.  It has given the average Joe access to all the fear and horror stories out there, and enabled them to have immediate access to all sort of laws and statutes that may or may NOT apply to a given situation.  Now all they have to do is contact some dodgy lawyer with a CLAIM about inappropriate behavior (cause they read on the internet that its inappropriate), and Whamo...

CGI Images wrote:

CGI Images wrote:
Personally I think all the paranoia exists on MM because the vast majority of people here, be it models or photographers are hobbyists that really have never stepped foot in the actual photography business world.  Their source of experience and information is the other equally un-knowledgeable hobbyists and internet experts.

Well your much more tactful and optimistic than I am ei, while I agree the majority mean well I still think there is a significant percentage of the women that fear-monger that has more to do with being jealous of younger females than meaning well.  Then a significant portion of the men that are just white knighting for those women.

Like I keep saying .. use common sense.   When I was shooting minors around public areas, I would have parents, or adults in tow ... at the beach, parks, school campus or shopping mall locations ... police or security have always been on me about "Do you have permission to shoot here?'  than so much being concerned about the age of the model.  If I didn't use common sense to get permission, and have a parent there ... the combination "could" cause trouble.  However in almost all cases,  I'm much more likely to be fined for shooting in a restricted area without a permit or license than I am to be in trouble for shooting the minor. 

Photographing minor aged models in the studio?  I've had parents drop off their kids and come back later to pick 'em up!  I've even had 16 year olds drive themselves to the studio!  No police or park rangers have busted down my doors yet! 

Lucas Chapman wrote:

But that very internet IS the problem, Patrick.  It has given the average Joe access to all the fear and horror stories out there, and enabled them to have immediate access to all sort of laws and statutes that may or may NOT apply to a given situation.  Now all they have to do is contact some dodgy lawyer with a CLAIM about inappropriate behavior (cause they read on the internet that its inappropriate), and Whamo...

So now your saying we should worry about civil as well as criminal action for taking pictures of minors?  I'd argue the likelihood of someone going to a "dodgy lawyer" and trying to sue you is equally as likely when working with 19, 25 or 50yr olds.  I dont think age has anything to do with that probability.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Photographing minor aged models in the studio?  I've had parents drop off their kids and come back later to pick 'em up!  I've even had 16 year olds drive themselves to the studio!  No police or park rangers have busted down my doors yet! 

Exactly, but thats always my point, America's issues with body and sexuality aside, that the odds of problems when doing a shoot appropriately and professionally are very very minimal regardless of the age of person infront of the camera.  Odds of trouble go up significantly if you handle yourself in an inappropriate way, again regardless of the age of the person infront of the camera.

According to many on here though Patrick you should get down and praise the camera gods you didnt end up in prison or at the very least on dateline.

CGI Images wrote:

Exactly, but thats always my point, America's issues with body and sexuality aside, that the odds of problems when doing a shoot appropriately and professionally are very very minimal regardless of the age of person infront of the camera.  Odds of trouble go up significantly if you handle yourself in an inappropriate way, again regardless of the age of the person infront of the camera.

According to many on here though Patrick you should get down and praise the camera gods you didnt end up in prison or at the very least on dateline.

Yes, I have been honored to earn the trust of such parents.  Even today, I am still good friends with some of the once "minor aged" models and their parents.   That is not the issue.  My experience with shooting minors at public locations has taught me long ago to be prepared for busy body types to call police, or for curious park rangers to approach me.  So far, no fines or jail time! 

Common sense along with good communication is the key.  I try to anticipate trouble and be ready for it when it happens.  You and I both know that it does not have to be a paranoia sort of thing. 

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Yes, I have been honored to earn the trust of such parents.  Even today, I am still good friends with some of the once "minor aged" models and their parents.   That is not the issue.  My experience with shooting minors at public locations has taught me long ago to be prepared for busy body types to call police, or for curious park rangers to approach me.  So far, no fines or jail time! 

Common sense along with good communication is the key.  I try to anticipate trouble and be ready for it when it happens.  You and I both know that it does not have to be a paranoia sort of thing. 

Completely agree Patrick, I've had issues with those busy bodies and small town police shooting a 19yr old.  I just dont think those risks are age dependent.

Lynell Bunni wrote:
If the photographers on this thread get heated over the issue, imagine how the parents will potentially react, legal or not.

Wow!  What did I miss?   

The OP made a polite "advise request" as his first post, and he has not come back.   I wonder if the fighting scared him away?   The fact is that there are no laws involving the "age" of a subject and "casual" photography.  He did not say he was planning on shooting nudes or porn, so why the fear mongering? 

He can photograph the two models without the parents there.  It is perfectly legal as long as he has not kidnapped them, or is planning to molest them, and the parents are alright with it.  They can sign releases later or even before. 

The "laws" that Kahn needs to be aware of are that you can be fined thousands of dollars for shooting in a State Park (like the Golden Gate) without a license or permit.   I discussed that more on page 2 of this thread.  But the problem is that when shooting out in public, you must not loiter, or look like you are doing a professional shoot without a permit.  I have been on the crew for some bigger professional shoots for movies and videos.  In all cases, the producer had the permits.  Police will check to see if you have the proper permit to carry a camera.  Seriously!   

Dress like a tourist.  Carry the least amount of gear you need to get the shots.  Have an assistant act as a lookout.  If you've got the Golden Gate in the background while shooting your models, if caught by the ranger then say you are a sightseeing.  Never try to shoot models in a shopping mall without a permit from the leasing office.  They will call the police and you can be arrested for trespassing.  It does not matter the age the model or photographer.

I could go on about how to behave when at public beaches, concerts, etc ... but also I have about 30 years of shooting all ages.  I worked for major studios, and have owned my own studios.  Thousands of photo sessions from senior portraits, model zed cards, engagements, family, children, and just about anything else you can think of.  Never have I had a parent "react" badly in 30 years.   Am I "lucky" or just doing something right?

So to the OP:  Do it!  Just be careful of those State Park rangers!