R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Hello,

I occasionally pay models **but my artistic interests and photography gigs alone would never pay for models+studio+mua+gear**, honestly I only pay for the ease of booking and to remove the tacit obligation of sending photos in a reasonable amount of time.

This leads me to the my point here:

How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models, I mean how does that business plan work? Given that there is a general desire to work with the artistic teams with the best locations and gear and visions - there is no way that these people have steady income to consistently pay models desired rates. Statistically unlikely to say the least, if these were the people paying models then models wouldn't still be asking for the same rates as adult escorts. Efficient market theory 101.


If this is your hobby,  Basically like any other activity ( sports, reading, cars, gardening)you must have the disposable income to pay for the item, tools and people that produce you pleasure, in this case the models and shoot.
Ideas : get a job, get another job, ask for a raise, save money, cut expenses in other areas, work more hours, lots more ideas but the list is too long.

If this is your business, you must have clients to pay for the shoot including models.


so I'm still trying to figure out how this concept is intended to work

Now let me do a better comparison:

fact 1) ADULT ESCORTS ADVERTISE TO WEALTHY GENTLEMEN, the typical crowd being investment bankers and the upper tier of earners.

This is the polar opposite of what a photographer can expect to make. These are on opposite extremes of the salary range, even with your successful wedding business.

fact 2) MODELS FREQUENTLY CHARGE AS MUCH AS ADULT ESCORTS, OR PULLING TOGETHER ALL RESOURCES WILL COST AS MUCH

Now we already know there is a noteworthy overlap, since adult escorts need professional retouched pictures, but its WHO is being advertised to. (if you made it this far: no I'm not implying all models are sex workers.)

Models advertise to photographers, preferably the ones that put time and effort into their work - meaning they aren't spending their time closing the deal on that merger & acquisition.
----------

So, as long as this crowd IS advertising to photographers, instead of advertising to CEOs of companies with shareholders, how is this little economy of ours actually supposed to work?

Now I'm sure these upside-down economics contributes to the age of photographers booking models. Hint: Its a bell curve. But I would like to know how the "ideal" scenario was intended to work. Given model's hourly rates are rates reserved for "generous gentlemen".

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Options I see:

1. Get a client to pay the model

2.  Sell images for enough to pay model from that

3.  Compensate model with images

4.  As a hobby use other sources of income to subsidize your photography

5.  Shoot other subject matter that does not require compensation

It sounds like the OP could get TF shoots and not pay the models. The OP just doesn't want to have to edit images in a timely manner so he opts to pay models to eliminate that service.

His comparison to escorts, etc. is ludicrous at best. He should be explaining why he is so lazy that he would rather pay models instead of editing pictures. I pay models when I want to upgrade my port. It is part of the advertising cost for photographers. Models pay me when they feel they want my images in their port. When a client pays me everyone involved gets paid, otherwise the next client may not want to hire me if I just did TF quality work.

This is not a comparison to the adult industry, it is a lame attempt at using that as an excuse because the OP is lazy.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models

Instead of looking at it this way, figure out a way to not have to pay at all (or eventually get paid, yourself).

Take some quality photography classes, do some workshops, spend a few years improving your craft and/or working as an intern/understudy for an established photographer, and read a lot of books on composition and lighting. Develop a port that makes models want to work with you for TF. After a few years of the TF work, the offers of paying you will start coming in, along with continuing TF requests from higher and higher quality models.

I started off over twelve years ago in the same position as you, and now it's all I do... from someone who was wondering how to get models in front of his camera to someone who shoots them for a living. It took a while, and I paid my dues. Just be determined and patient, and it will come.

cheers,

David Hirsh

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Hello,

I occasionally pay models **but my artistic interests and photography gigs alone would never pay for models+studio+mua+gear**, honestly I only pay for the ease of booking and to remove the tacit obligation of sending photos in a reasonable amount of time.

This leads me to the my point here:

How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models, I mean how does that business plan work? Given that there is a general desire to work with the artistic teams with the best locations and gear and visions - there is no way that these people have steady income to consistently pay models desired rates. Statistically unlikely to say the least, if these were the people paying models then models wouldn't still be asking for the same rates as adult escorts. Efficient market theory 101.

so I'm still trying to figure out how this concept is intended to work

Now let me do a better comparison:

fact 1) ADULT ESCORTS ADVERTISE TO WEALTHY GENTLEMEN, the typical crowd being investment bankers and the upper tier of earners.

This is the polar opposite of what a photographer can expect to make. These are on opposite extremes of the salary range, even with your successful wedding business.

fact 2) MODELS FREQUENTLY CHARGE AS MUCH AS ADULT ESCORTS, OR PULLING TOGETHER ALL RESOURCES WILL COST AS MUCH

Now we already know there is a noteworthy overlap, since adult escorts need professional retouched pictures, but its WHO is being advertised to. (if you made it this far: no I'm not implying all models are sex workers.)

Models advertise to photographers, preferably the ones that put time and effort into their work - meaning they aren't spending their time closing the deal on that merger & acquisition.
----------

So, as long as this crowd IS advertising to photographers, instead of advertising to CEOs of companies with shareholders, how is this little economy of ours actually supposed to work?

Now I'm sure these upside-down economics contributes to the age of photographers booking models. Hint: Its a bell curve. But I would like to know how the "ideal" scenario was intended to work. Given model's hourly rates are rates reserved for "generous gentlemen".

Some thoughts, in random order:

"Efficient market theory 101":  More than anything else, model rates are based on local supply & demand of models.  Models charge what they charge mostly because they can find people to pay them what they are charging.

MODELS FREQUENTLY CHARGE AS MUCH AS ADULT ESCORTS":  Comparing models to "escorts" is offensive.  Models also sometimes charge as much as plumbers, personal chefs, etc.  Such an attitude could be noted by potential models.

"How can photographers afford to hire models?":  Easy, someone pays the photographer.  They might have a client, they may sell stock photos.  In my case, I accept donations from visitors to my web site.  If your photographs aren't bringing in a revenue for the photographer, then the photographer is a hobbyist, and hobbies often can be expensive.  You might as well ask "how can people afford to jump out of an airplane" or "go sailing" or whatever.

I could go on, but I'm afraid I'd revert into an angry rant.

Jessica Vaugn  wrote:
Its too bad huh? The real thing to remember is no one makes anyone pay for anything...if you WANT it for your own reasons... you'll pay. Getting fundamental about it is a waste of time. Some models simply seek people who pay. Some photographers seek only people to shoot who will pay. Oh well. Both groups miss out if they do not properly book build in the right situations waving their normal fees. I don't see it as a model vs photographer situation if we all remember people are at different places in their lives/finances...etc. Many people just target people in the most beneficial financial situation for themselves.

Very well put Jessica

I pay the Ladies that sit for me because I suck at Photoshop and no model in her right mind would trade for images I edited, plus I do not want the hassle picking out images and getting them to her.

My neighbor Pays more weekly going to Sporting Venues than I spend on Models.

When I owned a Boat I spent a lot more taking friends, clients out and on mooring charges than a model can even dream of collecting for a shoot.

Down the street some guy spends more weekly playing with his classic cars than I do on Models. Same goes for the guys with motor homes and dirt bikes that go out weekly.

By paying models I get way fewer flakes than it seems (by reading in these forums) the TFP photographers get.

The Question was "How are photographers supposed to afford models?" I suppose basically it boils down to How is anyone supposed to afford anything??, and I think it is just One must decide on your spending priorities and go with that.

Sure, I spent a small fortune on equipment, and will continue to do so as long as I am able to open my front door for one more Model.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Hello,

I occasionally pay models **but my artistic interests and photography gigs alone would never pay for models+studio+mua+gear**, honestly I only pay for the ease of booking and to remove the tacit obligation of sending photos in a reasonable amount of time.

This leads me to the my point here:

How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models, I mean how does that business plan work? Given that there is a general desire to work with the artistic teams with the best locations and gear and visions - there is no way that these people have steady income to consistently pay models desired rates. Statistically unlikely to say the least, if these were the people paying models then models wouldn't still be asking for the same rates as adult escorts. Efficient market theory 101.

so I'm still trying to figure out how this concept is intended to work

Now let me do a better comparison:

fact 1) ADULT ESCORTS ADVERTISE TO WEALTHY GENTLEMEN, the typical crowd being investment bankers and the upper tier of earners.

This is the polar opposite of what a photographer can expect to make. These are on opposite extremes of the salary range, even with your successful wedding business.

fact 2) MODELS FREQUENTLY CHARGE AS MUCH AS ADULT ESCORTS, OR PULLING TOGETHER ALL RESOURCES WILL COST AS MUCH

Now we already know there is a noteworthy overlap, since adult escorts need professional retouched pictures, but its WHO is being advertised to. (if you made it this far: no I'm not implying all models are sex workers.)

Models advertise to photographers, preferably the ones that put time and effort into their work - meaning they aren't spending their time closing the deal on that merger & acquisition.
----------

So, as long as this crowd IS advertising to photographers, instead of advertising to CEOs of companies with shareholders, how is this little economy of ours actually supposed to work?

Now I'm sure these upside-down economics contributes to the age of photographers booking models. Hint: Its a bell curve. But I would like to know how the "ideal" scenario was intended to work. Given model's hourly rates are rates reserved for "generous gentlemen".

The short answer is that you are not supposed to pay models, they pay you.  The industry and especially this site are saturated with low level, mediocre models who somehow have deluded themselves into thinking that they somehow deserve to be paid.  Never mind the fact that their ports are laughable with only a handful of cell phone camera photos, or that they have no clue as to how to pose, or that they have no idea on this earth as to what a commitment is or how to honor it, the fact they these models think they should be paid means (at least in their minds) that they should be paid.

I have on occassion paid a model but the ones I have paid were established models who were at the very top of their game and it was worth every nickel because it elevated my portfolio as well as theirs.

As long as there are guys with cameras out there who will hand over money these "models" will go on operating under the mistaken impression that they are actually good enough to be paid.

The answer to this problem is to stop paying these mediocre models and sooner or later they will wake up, get the message, and stop asking.  There are more than enough models who will do trade shoots that you can get photos for your port.  It is a little harder this way and the flake factor can be off the scale but once in a while you will find a diamond in the rough that makes it worthwhile.

Hold your ground.  When you get a message from a model or one respond to you with rates you can handle it one of two ways.  1)  delete the message, block the model, and move on or; 2)  respond to the model with your rates and make sure your rate is ar least double theirs.  Option 2 is my personal favorite.

It is discouraging but it can be dealt with, you just have to stand your ground and not give in.  Which would you rather do, spend your money and get bad photos from a mediocre model or get good photos for free from a decent model?  I know what I would do.

2020 Photography wrote:

The short answer is that you are not supposed to pay models, they pay you.

And why would i do that?

2020 Photography wrote:
"models" will go on operating under the mistaken impression that they are actually good enough to be paid.

If you can get paid, then you are good enough to get paid, clearly.

JGraham wrote:
Some pay models, mostly nude, for private collections.

Private collectors also pay photographers.

Carlos Occidental wrote:
Step 1)  Hire girlfriend or other friend TFP and take some fabulous shots, with model release.

I tried this and it all worked great until my wife found out.

Epic Exposures LLC wrote:
TO be quite honest, I have NEVER paid a model. I get paid by them, but I even get non paid nude pics. I do help them with gas money if they are pretty and drove a little ways to get here. A model is born with a great body, however I have paid thousands in equipment, and thousands of hours in time, therefore everyone pays me if it's not TF.

Just put some great stuff out there and they will come looking for you.

no one cares about your expenses..

Nedah Oyin wrote:
" A model is born with a great body, however I have paid thousands in equipment, and thousands of hours in time, therefore everyone pays me if it's not TF."

Just put some great stuff out there and they will come looking for you."

no one cares about your expenses..

+++1

not only that, a photographer who only works with TF models is doomed to always work with TF models.  photographers who brag about that are doomed to never understand why that is a bad thing

Dan Howell wrote:
not only that, a photographer who only works with TF models is doomed to always work with TF models.  photographers who brag about that are doomed to never understand why that is a bad thing

I'm a big fan of paying great models when the situation warrants.

But, I've also done TF with models who are ten times as useful as other models who quoted me rates.  And plenty of models who don't do trades with me will do so with other photographers.  It's not like there are "TF models" and "paid models" and they never cross over.  The vast majority (probably 99% or more) of models accept trades from SOMEONE, and a huge portion would accept pay if it were offered for styles they're comfortable shooting.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Hello,

I occasionally pay models **but my artistic interests and photography gigs alone would never pay for models+studio+mua+gear**, honestly I only pay for the ease of booking and to remove the tacit obligation of sending photos in a reasonable amount of time.

This leads me to the my point here:

How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models, I mean how does that business plan work? Given that there is a general desire to work with the artistic teams with the best locations and gear and visions - there is no way that these people have steady income to consistently pay models desired rates. Statistically unlikely to say the least, if these were the people paying models then models wouldn't still be asking for the same rates as adult escorts. Efficient market theory 101.

Generally when a client comes to the photographer or the photographer acquires a client where a model may be used, a budget is assigned between the parties and agreed to. The client hires the photographer, the photographer gets the model. Often the client sets the budget beforehand, then photographers have to work within it or find a way.

Clients use models to advertise their products, their clothing, their services, etc.

They may need a certain type of model, certain size, to appeal to a certain group the marketing dept. people are targeting.

So

work (client) > photographer & industry staff > model/talent

but that can vary depending on your industry

Off photographers do independent projects, either personally or to make money off of it later, where they may utilize assorted talent to create that imagery. Stock photographers are examples of this. With art photographers it is also often the case.

Then there are the photographers who cater to the models themselves, providing services such as headshots or portfolio development.

and probably a lot more stuff I'm not completely aware of.

Just some feedback on your initial question, I didn't read the replies.

Art of the nude wrote:
I'm a big fan of paying great models when the situation warrants.

But, I've also done TF with models who are ten times as useful as other models who quoted me rates.

So what you are saying is that you select models based on your preferences or what your concept demands, rather than, say, the financial situation of the model.  Makes sense to me.

Never understood the other photographers who brag about their self-imposed limitations...

ASYLUM - Photo wrote:
I can never afford to shoot regularly if I paid every model. Other photographers can. For most of photographers shooting here, it's simply a hobby. In order for someone else go go along with your hobby they need to either be passionate about it and enjoy it as well with you, or you need to compensate them for their time. Luckily I've been able to run into models who want to work with me on a trade basis. I've paid a couple, because I really wanted to work with them, but they didn't have any use for me. Such is life.

Services cost money generally. If the model is the service, you'll have to compensate them for their time. If the photographer is the service, the model should compensate... etc.

you forgot one small detail, Jason..

your work fucking rocks..

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
These are who the models who require pay are targeting...whether they realize it or not. No financially responsible working photographer would be paying models out of their own pocket. That business would fold fairly quickly.

Not entirely true, a lot of people working on paysites and such tend to run a sort of one man operation. And some photographers shooting particular things will pay the model then sell on the photos.

Carlos Occidental wrote:
Step 1)  Hire girlfriend or other friend TFP and take some fabulous shots, with model                        release.
Step 2)  Print and sell photos to galleries and collectors. 
Step 3)  Hire a professional model with the money you made from prints. 
Step 4)  Print and sell photos to galleries and collectors.
Step 5)  Repeat starting with step 3.


It's that simple.

Not quite right. The purpose of TFP is for both model and photographer to up their ports and not for the photographer or model to profit from sells unless agreed to before hand.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models...there is no way that these people have steady income to consistently pay models desired rates.

I know people that do.  Maybe you don't have a steady income that enables you to consistently pay models, but there are plenty of people that do.  There are two kinds, those that have day jobs that enable them to pay for their photography endeavors, and there are those whose photography income enables them to pay for a full crew.  I have been paid by photographers who make money off of the gallery and prints that make money for them.  I have been paid by photographers who make money off of the stock photography site.  I have been paid by photographers who make money shooting civilian clients (weddings, senior photos, etc).  Also there are plenty of models who have desired rates but are open to negotiation depending on the project.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Statistically unlikely to say the least, if these were the people paying models then models wouldn't still be asking for the same rates as adult escorts. Efficient market theory 101.

Hold up, WTF are you talking about?  What made up statistics did you pull out of your ass for this?  First of all, nice generalization that all models charge the same thing, because they don't.  Second of all, you're really going to compare models to adult escorts.  Again WTF?!

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Now we already know there is a noteworthy overlap, since adult escorts need professional retouched pictures, but its WHO is being advertised to. (if you made it this far: no I'm not implying all models are sex workers.)

You are really comparing apples and oranges here.  Escorts are CLIENTS to photographers, escorts pay photographers for their images in order to advertise themselves.  Models are CREW to photographers, models get paid by photographers or clients for their time.  Models are paid for providing the service of modeling for the photographer, escorts pay photographers because the photographers are providing a service for them.  TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Models advertise to photographers, preferably the ones that put time and effort into their work - meaning they aren't spending their time closing the deal on that merger & acquisition.

And models don't put time and effort into their work?  Do you really think we just wake up in the morning looking camera ready and things like makeup, hair products, skin products, and gym memberships just fall out of the sky for free?  You just think models are magically physically fit with no effort, that they don't put time and effort into maintaining their bodies?  When you are working with professionals everyone should be putting in an EQUAL amount of time and effort into the project.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
So, as long as this crowd IS advertising to photographers, instead of advertising to CEOs of companies with shareholders, how is this little economy of ours actually supposed to work?

You're joking, right?  There are absolutely NO models that advertise to CEOs of companies and whatever- that's what AGENCIES do.  Models advertise to photographers because either the photographer himself wants to hire the model for her time OR he has access to clients who would be able to pay everyone for the project.  The idea of models trying to build a relationship with a CEO is stupid, that takes years, models don't have long careers, photographers do.  Photographers often build those kinds of client relationships and then models try and build relationships with those photographers because photographers understand what a short amount of time a model has in her field.

How do you think this "little economy of ours actually works?"  How it works is it's a free market, most people are freelance in this, they find ways to make it work.  They negotiate, they network, they figure it out.  People in this business either figure out their own business model and have success, or they don't get ahead and they fail.  It's that simple.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Now I'm sure these upside-down economics contributes to the age of photographers booking models. Hint: Its a bell curve. But I would like to know how the "ideal" scenario was intended to work. Given model's hourly rates are rates reserved for "generous gentlemen".

I have been hired by photographers of all ages, as young as in their 20s and very old men.  Age has nothing to do with it.  Yes, some photographers hire models just because they are lonely men (or pervs) who just want to hang around a pretty girl, but those are GWCs and not real photographers.  It has nothing to do with "generous gentlemen" as you so gingerly glossed "Johns" it has to do with the simple someone should be paid for their job.  Photographers who pay models do it because they're obviously making money and can afford it, they feel that the models should be compensated for their time and effort like anyone else.  Cashiers, air pilots, seamstresses, whatever, all are paid for their effort so what makes models any different?

That's what frustrates plenty of models in this business, for some reason photographers think modeling is not an actual job, they think that it doesn't take time out of our day, it doesn't take effort on our part both on set and off set, it doesn't take invested money from our own pockets.  And then they piss and moan about editing time and cost of equipment and blah blah blah.  Just because you can't afford to pay models doesn't mean they don't deserve to be paid for their time.  If you can't afford them then work with hobby models who will do it for TF, but don't come in here and try and compare models to escorts just because some photographers can actually afford to pay for professionals to work in front of their camera.

Erick Prince wrote:
Uhhhhhh rightttttt. I think MANY isn't the right word here.

Can you tell me what is? because honestly the majority of photographers that hire me are. thanks.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Ya! I've seen the door price of your workshops! I'll come out some time

Another "business model" at work here - photographers charge other photographers $ for workshops, then they pay the models out of that...ideally. Sometimes doesn't work out that way and they just get them for free. ...ideally

Nedah Oyin wrote:

you forgot one small detail, Jason..

your work fucking rocks..

Thanks

But even if my work does rock, there are plenty of models who won't work with me without me paying them. I'm perfectly ok with that, because it's silly for someone to a) do something they don't want to do AND b) not get anything out of it.

The key for anyone regarding trade is to find someone who wants to do it, and feels it'll be worth their time. Whether they are photographer, model, stylist... or you know pretty much anything else. Otherwise, you end up paying, because at that point the other party is simply providing you a service.

Kazmere Photography wrote:
Thanks for the laughs everybody, it's been entertaining as usual:)

agreed, but the party isn't over yet! don't leave

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
Girls, its not about MY market, or my licensing regime, its about the earning potential of photographers. This is a readily available number. Now granted, travelling freelance models aren't going to be talking about their 401k and dividends either, but on this site, where the third party client is prohibited, who are you advertising your rates to? The high earner that will responsibly afford your rate who is also a full time photographer? unlikely

hmmm... bit of irony at work here... how do you know to give this info, if you have to start a thread asking how the industry is supposed to work? Where's it even coming from anyway?

Carlos Occidental wrote:
Step 1)  Hire girlfriend or other friend TFP and take some fabulous shots, with model                        release.
Step 2)  Print and sell photos to galleries and collectors. 
Step 3)  Hire a professional model with the money you made from prints. 
Step 4)  Print and sell photos to galleries and collectors.
Step 5)  Repeat starting with step 3.


It's that simple.

Fred Gerhart wrote:
Not quite right. The purpose of TFP is for both model and photographer to up their ports and not for the photographer or model to profit from sells unless agreed to before hand.

Let's not go there.  "The purpose of TFP" is to do what suits both parties needs.

And, the plan you quoted is so unrealistic it really doesn't matter anyway.

JadeDRed wrote:

Not entirely true, a lot of people working on paysites and such tend to run a sort of one man operation. And some photographers shooting particular things will pay the model then sell on the photos.

You're right. You beat me to my edit. I went back and qualified that the business wouldn't last long unless their was income coming in to cover that expense. We could also include shooting models for stock in that discussion. Obviously, if income is received from the images it's a completely different situation.

I think the OP was referring to non-commercial shoots and paying models with no hope of any resulting income.

Nedah Oyin wrote:

no one cares about your expenses..

+1

Nedah Oyin wrote:

you forgot one small detail, Jason..

your work fucking rocks..

+1

Doug Lester wrote:

You don't want to pay models. You don't want to shoot TFP. I would strongly recommend yu consider landscape photography. Or an alternative, find clients to pay both you and the model.

This.

I also photograph birds.  It doesn't pay at all (except when I take an Audubon or Sierra Club chapter out on a photo shoot) but the birds A.) NEVER flake and B.) don't ask for money.

I get you about paying models.  What VERY little discretionary income I get from my criminally-low-paying "real" job I scrimp to pay the prettiest models I can find because I'm not experienced enough or connected enough (or in some cases handsome enough, maybe) to get models here to work TF. 

I try to sell what I shoot to websites, but it's a lot harder now than it was 5 years ago, for a variety of reasons, to make money off that.  (A lot of that has to do with the lower demand for photo content because of the huge explosion in video content). 

Otherwise, either start getting pictures to models in a very timely manner, or spend a lot of time begging.  They're people, and they need to eat, pay for their car, etc., so until you have a reputation and/or connections that will help them, you really don't have much else to offer them that would be useful.