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How are photographers supposed to afford models
Hello, I occasionally pay models **but my artistic interests and photography gigs alone would never pay for models+studio+mua+gear**, honestly I only pay for the ease of booking and to remove the tacit obligation of sending photos in a reasonable amount of time. This leads me to the my point here: How exactly are photographers supposed to afford models, I mean how does that business plan work? Given that there is a general desire to work with the artistic teams with the best locations and gear and visions - there is no way that these people have steady income to consistently pay models desired rates. Statistically unlikely to say the least, if these were the people paying models then models wouldn't still be asking for the same rates as adult escorts. Efficient market theory 101. so I'm still trying to figure out how this concept is intended to work Now let me do a better comparison: fact 1) ADULT ESCORTS ADVERTISE TO WEALTHY GENTLEMEN, the typical crowd being investment bankers and the upper tier of earners. This is the polar opposite of what a photographer can expect to make. These are on opposite extremes of the salary range, even with your successful wedding business. fact 2) MODELS FREQUENTLY CHARGE AS MUCH AS ADULT ESCORTS, OR PULLING TOGETHER ALL RESOURCES WILL COST AS MUCH Now we already know there is a noteworthy overlap, since adult escorts need professional retouched pictures, but its WHO is being advertised to. (if you made it this far: no I'm not implying all models are sex workers.) Models advertise to photographers, preferably the ones that put time and effort into their work - meaning they aren't spending their time closing the deal on that merger & acquisition. ---------- So, as long as this crowd IS advertising to photographers, instead of advertising to CEOs of companies with shareholders, how is this little economy of ours actually supposed to work? Now I'm sure these upside-down economics contributes to the age of photographers booking models. Hint: Its a bell curve. But I would like to know how the "ideal" scenario was intended to work. Given model's hourly rates are rates reserved for "generous gentlemen". Jul 10 11 09:14 pm Link I've been shooting for a few years and have only paid to shoot one model. I beg a lot. Jul 10 11 09:17 pm Link TO be quite honest, I have NEVER paid a model. I get paid by them, but I even get non paid nude pics. I do help them with gas money if they are pretty and drove a little ways to get here. A model is born with a great body, however I have paid thousands in equipment, and thousands of hours in time, therefore everyone pays me if it's not TF. Just put some great stuff out there and they will come looking for you. Jul 10 11 09:19 pm Link Epic Exposures LLC wrote: Yes, yes - no problem with that Jul 10 11 09:21 pm Link Craig Thomson wrote: This is exactly my point, if we were the kind of people paying model's asking price, then they wouldn't still be asking for that price because we wouldn't pay it. The fact is that someone is matching those bids, just frequently enough for models to have asking prices that high. Jul 10 11 09:23 pm Link R A V E N D R I V E wrote: You don't want to pay models. You don't want to shoot TFP. I would strongly recommend yu consider landscape photography. Or an alternative, find clients to pay both you and the model. Jul 10 11 09:26 pm Link the same reason some gwc can "afford" 25,000 in gear, cause they want it. There are a ton of dilettantes on here that will never make any money with their photography, but still want the pleasure of working with good people when indulging in their "artistic process." Jul 10 11 09:26 pm Link Without sounding facetious, if you are being paid by the client, then paying the model is just a cost that you are passsing onto them. If you are not being paid, then, who says you are supposed to be able to afford them? Unless you are rich, maybe you can't! Jul 10 11 09:28 pm Link R A V E N D R I V E wrote: quit playing let's take pictures. go get some clients who use models. Jul 10 11 09:29 pm Link Most models are not making (and do not charge) the same amount as an adult escort. Not nearly. Also, know that this comparison may offend some. This idea of the photographer paying the model does not actually occur in the, how can I put this delicately, not "real world" industry. The photographer is paid by a third part client; models and photographers do not profit, really, off of one another. A model may book a shoot with a photographer for portfolio development, and vice-versa, but this happens rarely. Instead, photographers and models shoot for the client who needs the photographs to sell their product, or, in the case of art nudes, for the client who desires to own and display art. (But, I cannot speak much to art nudes, as it is not my genre.) It seems that, because the market is saturated with photographers and aspiring photographers, models often forgo the notion of paying a photographer. This, I feel, is were the unbalance which you speak of occurs. These models who refuse the opportunity to pay a photographer for portfolio development (and I mean, the right photographer and hopefully under the guidance of an agency, as many new models are unable to discern what kind of photographs book work) are doing themselves a serious disservice. Jul 10 11 09:29 pm Link Doug Lester wrote: oh this isn't about me! lol, I already mentioned in my original post that I'm not just a photographer Jul 10 11 09:31 pm Link I don't know how "it's supposed to work", but if I had to guess where the most money is exchanged between model / photographers here are either retired pro portrait studio / commercial photographers and /or guys hiring models so they can shoot naked girl art. I don't see it as how it's supposed to work, so much as how it's supposed to work for me.Financially, I try to make photography something of a zero sum enterprise. I hack, build, buy and sell equipment to keep me in film and such. As a non paying customer, I usually don't attract models that seek pay, just as a rule. This leaves models that model because they enjoy modeling. For whatever reason. I'm ok with that. Jul 10 11 09:32 pm Link R A V E N D R I V E wrote: You don't want to do trades, you don't want to be hired by the models, and yet you rant about paying models? Jul 10 11 09:32 pm Link D M M wrote: I realize this. Jul 10 11 09:33 pm Link The nerve... Jul 10 11 09:35 pm Link D M M wrote: Its seen it frequently enough to make the comparison. I usually just laugh about it, since the general idea behind consumerism and economic theory is that one would pay MORE for the more exclusive service Jul 10 11 09:37 pm Link D M M wrote: R A V E N D R I V E wrote: Actually, there are few, if any, models on this site who seriously quote "real industry" rates of $400-$2000/hr for freelance work. I've paid from $15 to $100/hr for models, and seen rates from $7.50/hr to $200/hr, not counting trades of course. Jul 10 11 09:37 pm Link You're only worth what your market will pay. My market's paying. Yours seem not to be since you're beating a dead horse. It's the photographer's job to sell their images. It's the model's job to sell herself to the photographers. No model I know charges anywhere near what an escort charges (I know a few on both sides of the issue). On the other hand, if you stop hiring escorts as models, you'll pay a lot less and get more use out of them. Jul 10 11 09:38 pm Link Jessica Vaugn wrote: I know, I usually don't refer to the class system to blatantly, but photography is a working class trade. Jul 10 11 09:40 pm Link I'm not sure why a photographer would ever pay a model. If he's a hobbist and not a photographer that's different... he's paying for his hobby... like paying to play golf rather than being paid to play golf. A photographer doesn't normally pay the model, the client does or if the photogrpaher does, it's included in his bill to the client. For me, models pay me to shoot them just like any other of my clients would. Jul 10 11 09:41 pm Link R A V E N D R I V E wrote: I'm dying to know who these models are who demand rates akin to what a third party client would pay. I know you cannot indulge me, of course. I have always worked with photographers who book me for their portfolio development to negotiable a rate that is reasonable FOR THEM. I would feel uncomfortable accepting a shoot from a photographer that paid above a certain wage, in fact. I have, literally, a wage ceiling. I suppose this has a lot to do with my genre (fashion and commercial, but especially commercial fashion) and the fact that, for my entire career up until this point, I have only ever worked for third party clients. But, I do know a good number of models who offer extremely reasonable rates and negotiate closely with photographers, just as I do. Jul 10 11 09:41 pm Link Ginger Ryan wrote: Cosign Jul 10 11 09:42 pm Link Jessica Vaugn wrote: Jul 10 11 09:42 pm Link Ginger Ryan wrote: I just browse local availability sometimes, there's quite of few of them that do. But they may just be fishing to see who bites their rates. Jul 10 11 09:42 pm Link Art of the nude wrote: Really, few models quote serious "real industry" rates ever, period. His/her booker does. The kind of jobs that pay $400-$2000/hr are found in the fashion and commercial sector, and you cannot freelance (successfully) in these genres. Jul 10 11 09:44 pm Link R A V E N D R I V E wrote: You're probably right. People do this in every industry. It's not just us. Jul 10 11 09:44 pm Link Ginger Ryan wrote: This is not true, as a blanket statement. I sell myself to third party clients. This may be Sony (I wish for this booking!), this may be Macy's (I double wish for this booking!!). Or, it may be a designer, an online clothing boutique, a jewelry company, a makeup company, and more. Jul 10 11 09:48 pm Link Ginger Ryan wrote: Jessica Vaugn wrote: Girls, its not about MY market, or my licensing regime, its about the earning potential of photographers. This is a readily available number. Now granted, travelling freelance models aren't going to be talking about their 401k and dividends either, but on this site, where the third party client is prohibited, who are you advertising your rates to? The high earner that will responsibly afford your rate who is also a full time photographer? unlikely Jul 10 11 09:48 pm Link Don't you have two kidneys? Sell one. Pay models. ???? Profit. You're working in an internet industry, which is vastly different than the real modeling industry. You don't want to pay them, offer them something comparable. And I'm sorry, but $50 an hour for an adult escort? You deserve the gonorrhea you get from that. Jul 10 11 09:50 pm Link D M M wrote: True. I stand corrected. Jul 10 11 09:52 pm Link Elizabeth Claret wrote: LOL your posts always get me... Jul 10 11 09:53 pm Link Elizabeth Claret wrote: I actually usually drop between $50-$100 for all of my creative projects. I was referring to the 200-500 euro/hr I saw on the local availability pages Jul 10 11 09:54 pm Link I pay models, and pay for studios, all it means is that I shoot less often to be able to afford it... either that or I have to do more work, and I'm not a fan of that. Jul 10 11 09:54 pm Link punkuate wrote: QFT Jul 10 11 09:56 pm Link R A V E N D R I V E wrote: that target range is aimed at, as what you have so properly described - "generous gentlemen" and an occasional "serious hobbyist with disposable income"... Jul 10 11 09:59 pm Link R A V E N D R I V E wrote: I know someone in NYC who paid $5 for oral sex on 85th/Riverside drive. Jul 10 11 10:07 pm Link Wow... There are many different ways to make profit or at least break even on a hobby. One photographer in particular that I know takes a few commercial jobs a year in order to cover the costs to maintain a darkroom, for example. Just because two people each have a camera doesn't mean they have similar game plans. Jul 10 11 10:10 pm Link I don't beg they usually come to me. I just do TFs with models. If they want payment then thats the clients job. Not mine. No client No pay. Jul 10 11 10:13 pm Link PashaPhoto wrote: Ya! I've seen the door price of your workshops! I'll come out some time Jul 10 11 10:17 pm Link So Here's the solution, since you keep comparing models to adult escorts, why not just hire an adult escort? I'm sure she'll pose for you. The truth is, many photographers are retired or work very competitive careers that pay well. Some also sell the pictures or have clients they sell the work to. and to hire a model, you do not need a whole team. Hire a model who can do it all. Jul 10 11 10:19 pm Link |