J Jessica  wrote:

$20 is a LOT of money, actually.

That is correct. Most models do not make hooker rates. Promo models often make $15.00-$30.00 an hour with $30.00 being reserved for someone who is well experienced and knows the product.

A M Johnson wrote:

That is correct. Most models do not make hooker rates. Promo models often make $15.00-$30.00 an hour with $30.00 being reserved for someone who is well experienced and knows the product.

Why do models always get compared by togs to strippers and prostitutes? couldn't you imagine that using doctors or lawyers would get your point across just as well without the possible backlash?

Dan K Photography wrote:
Why do models always get compared by togs to strippers and prostitutes? couldn't you imagine that using doctors or lawyers would get your point across just as well without the possible backlash?

Backlash from white knights don't bother me.

But, back on topic, the point was that a high rate of pay isn't always justified just because the model poses in front of a camera.

Tiffiney C wrote:

That's true. But it could also backfire. The model could wake up an say "I don't feel like it, it's only $20 anyway". I frown upon people who cancel after agreeing to a shoot but the incentive isn't that great. With that being said who are they marketing to again? Hobbyist, professionals, etc?

They can also say "I'm not getting anything for this so I'll stay home" on the other hand they may say "At least I'll come away with something and I won't be out gas"

Laurel Rae wrote:
I'd do it if it was with a great photographer... and for the newbies that don't get any high paying gigs then those jobs are perfect for them! (I see on facebook some models are begging for any type of compensation at all)

So it really depends on supply and demand lol

Not to single you out, because your outlook is similar to a lot of models, why would the photographer have to be great. A starting out photographer may surprise you with real good work, and either way, $20/hr from a "great photographer" is the same as $20 from a newbie.

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I guess we would agree that this gesture would be fine if the model was dying to shoot with the photographer. They would do it for nothing in that case so any amount would be a bonus.

But...what is the likelihood of the type of a photographer who is offering $20 flat is going to be the kind of photographer (talent level) any model is dying to work with?

The stars aren't aligning on this one for me.

I actually had this happen to me. I was meaning to message a photographer asking him to work with me (TF) and he responded to my casting and asked to book me for an hour.

I got amazing images from the shoot, shot with someone who was on my 'wishlist' and I got paid for my time. It. was. awesome!

But I should also mention I was paid more than $20.

Tiffiney C wrote:

Primarily I was talking about $20-30 flat

That is different.  I can offer $20-$30/hr.  Or a $50 flat rate.  I drive to my model so she doesn't have the expense, and I normally shoot for 1 1/2hrs, 2 at the very most.  The model also gets a CD with all the pics from the shoot on it, and no limits on how she uses them.  I may be wrong, won't be the first time, but I think that is fair.

Tiffiney C wrote:

I hope you are being facetious. I guess $20 is a lot of money if your job pays $8/hr, or you live with your mom, or you don't have to provide clothing, shoes or wardrobe for the $20 comped shoot. Not saying that you are any of the above, but do you think that $20 is worth 2-4 hours of your time?

Your original post said $20-30/hr, $20/hr IS a lot of money. I don't make that much.

I'd expect for a straight $20 as you're saying now they wouldn't be looking for a 4 hour shoot.

Amelia Talon wrote:
If you think that's lowballing try getting contacted by an actual company with an offer of $15/hr while it's competitors usually dish out $1000+/day through agencies lol. MM can be really funny.

True but as was mentioned in some other threads 90% or more of the models here are not agency models and are never going to get agency rates.  As was also mentioned many agency models who don't break into the bigs end up with promo work in that same $20-30/hr range or less.

Then again all this goes back to thinking photographers are the clients.  Actual clients pay more for models, photographers, and just about everything else.  Part time photographers are just as broke as models and the pros test with agency models usually at no cost.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Hey all. I have a serious question. Lately I've been seeing more and more casting calls "paid" in the amount of about $20-30 or $20-30/hr. My question to the photographers who post these castings is who is you're target market for these castings?

No market in general, just looking for a 'body' to fill a slot and the concept can pretty much be filled by anyone... I generally don't post a $20/hr casting, but the same goes for "fast food".. if anyone can do it... it's going to cost less.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Is it hobbyist models who are excited to get any kind of compensation for a shoot?

Sometimes, sometimes it's someone that says "I'll stand there and let you take my picture for $20"... they have no intention of 'becoming a model' but it's easy cash.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Are you looking for serious models who can give you the images that you are looking for?

Generally, like I said.. when I am casting that low, I'm looking for a "body" to fil the spot, they have to be serious about wanting the gig.. but I am in no means looking for an "experienced model".

Tiffiney C wrote:
Do you get a lot of responses for these castings?

Yes, millions (Ok.. not millions.. but lots) But then it depends...
A) If I am casting for a clothed shoot and I'm paying $20/hr... I get flooded with models that are both 'professional' and 'amateur'... clothed is just so easy to get it's almost not worth my time to do TF as I pay less money in Time that I would spend editing pictures for the model then if I just paid them outright $20.
B) Nudes at $20/hr usually get me the art models that usually model at Universities as the schools around here only pay $10 to $15/hr... So the response is smaller, but I still get about 5 to 10 models "interested" in a shoot if I'm paying even $20/hr.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Would it be more beneficial for you to post the casting as TFP with a small stipend for gas/travel then insert the $20-40.

Like I said... The time I would spend editing photos is WAY less to the cost of what I would just give the model in cash... for example.
If I charged someone for a session at "100/hr" I'm shooting for just that hour but in post and editing I"m spending about 5-10 minutes on a photo sometimes less, sometimes considerably more... If I give them $20/hr ($40 for two hours work).. That is less time I have to spend on editing photos they want and more on stuff I want (as generally what I like and what model's like are very different). My Time>Cash

Tiffiney C wrote:
In my opinion, paid assignments are for those looking to get a particular result, have the ability to use/sell for whatever they want, and not HAVE to give model images unless stated (whether you do or not is your preference). That being the case, do you believe that $20/40 dollars is enough to buy out images or is that the reason you get models harassing for images, asking for discs, concerned about what you are later doing with the images.

Like I said earlier, there are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of models willing to let me "buy out" there image for the low charge of $20/hr... believe me, here in Utah.. EVERYONE is willing to do clothed... and whne a clothed casting call comes up and it's a paying gig, the competition is thick so you 'passing it by' the photographer wouldn't notice.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Not venting at all. I personally ignore the castings but would like to know the train of thought you all have when posting. I look forward to hearing what you all say!

Edit: 20/hr for 2 hr shoots

$10/hr for clothed work is just as easy especially if it's a multiple hour shoot.. (e.g. $80 for a day rate clothed)
Nude I have had models request shots for that sort of low rate... Like you said.. they probably just look at it like a TF* shoot with some 'gas' compensation.

But a Day rate of $200 for nudes here in Utah is not uncommon.. I get that often... and quite honestly I have been doing it for 4 years straight every month and haven't had to 'repeat' a model yet...

On the other side though.. There aren't very many models out there that warrant "100/hr" like most models want... there are a few, but not many.

James Sioux wrote:
20, 30 an hour?!  Darn it!  I've been overpaying models for 4 years.  I really should place a casting call for this amount and see who bites the hook.

Do it, you might be surprised.

Though, I don't think so much that $20/hr would be a good idea unless you were offering images on top of the payment... but try a casting at $40/hr for nudes.. I bet you get a bite.

For clothed.. Offer a sandwich and $20/hr you will have a flooded in box.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Hey all. I have a serious question. Lately I've been seeing more and more casting calls "paid" in the amount of about $20-30 or $20-30/hr. My question to the photographers who post these castings is who is you're target market for these castings? Is it hobbyist models who are excited to get any kind of compensation for a shoot? Are you looking for serious models who can give you the images that you are looking for? Do you get a lot of responses for these castings? Would it be more beneficial for you to post the casting as TFP with a small stipend for gas/travel then insert the $20-40.

In my opinion, paid assignments are for those looking to get a particular result, have the ability to use/sell for whatever they want, and not HAVE to give model images unless stated (whether you do or not is your preference). That being the case, do you believe that $20/40 dollars is enough to buy out images or is that the reason you get models harassing for images, asking for discs, concerned about what you are later doing with the images.

Not venting at all. I personally ignore the castings but would like to know the train of thought you all have when posting. I look forward to hearing what you all say!

Edit: 20/hr for 2 hr shoots

Didn't read the whole thread, but if you want to know why photographers charge this, shouldn't you have posted it in the photographer's forum?

As it is here in the model's forum, it is just a rant against photographers and their rates and how model's are too good to work for so little money...

Paige Morgan wrote:
20-30 per hour is a totally acceptable rate for a lot of different people. I was under the impression we were discussing the $20-30 flat payment for a full day castings that seem to be trending right now.

This is what I get for posting pre first cup of coffee

Bloomberg hasn't outlawed coffee in the big apple yet?

Capitol City Boudoir wrote:
Why pay $50, $60 or even $100 per hour when there are llamas willing to shoot for $20 to $25 per hour.  Most are not professionals and are simply looking to earn some extra money.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I've found that there is a very strong correlation between the talent and experience of the llamas I shoot and the quality of the images I get.

That's not to say that I haven't gotten a smashing shot of an MUA or an inexperienced llama - but not with the same consistency. If I shoot 100 images and have to spend hours deciding which ONE out of the top 40-50 to retouch - that was an excellent llama.

If that weren't the case, there would be no professional llamas - OR all llamas would be making $10 or $20/hour.

Tiffiney C wrote:

I agree but then some castings with these rates ask for basically industry standard girls.

When I want industry standard girls, I go to an agency, and then I don't pay anything.

When the camera club sets up a shoot, it pays Art Model rates so as to not have to chase photographers to make them deliver images to the models. (they get money and no pictures).

When I was making money in the industry, models would get paid industry rates and it would be billed to the client.

Now I am a hobbyist. My kit has cost me enough thank you. If I pay $100/hr, then I won't be able to afford that piece of gear that may help me up the quality of my images.

Now if I lived in a 2 mil house, and drove a Lambo, I would certainly be far more generous.

ASHZ Shank wrote:
To answer the simple question as of why such a small amount of money... Something that is ignored about most photographers is, a lot of us don't get paid for our work. We spend thousands in gear, cameras, lighting and such and don't have the money to shell out a hundred bucks an hour all the time. I understand as a model that you want to make money, but let me ask you this, how many people out of the industry do you know that make a hundred bucks an hour. I'm not complaining and understand models will charge what they feel, but sometimes we just can't afford to pay that much, being we still have car payments, bills, house payments and all that, and for probably many of us, this is a passion, but also a hobby.

+1 The internet has changed the business model for everyone: Magazine and Newspapers have virtually been wiped out--There are very limited paying jobs for photographers. I wish models well,  but it's a new world economic reality  we're living in. Personally, I just do TFP Because I'm not getting paid for my work right now.

Wysiwyg Photography wrote:

Tiffiney C wrote:
Hey all. I have a serious question. Lately I've been seeing more and more casting calls "paid" in the amount of about $20-30 or $20-30/hr. My question to the photographers who post these castings is who is you're target market for these castings?

No market in general, just looking for a 'body' to fill a slot and the concept can pretty much be filled by anyone... I generally don't post a $20/hr casting, but the same goes for "fast food".. if anyone can do it... it's going to cost less.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Is it hobbyist models who are excited to get any kind of compensation for a shoot?

Sometimes, sometimes it's someone that says "I'll stand there and let you take my picture for $20"... they have no intention of 'becoming a model' but it's easy cash.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Are you looking for serious models who can give you the images that you are looking for?

Generally, like I said.. when I am casting that low, I'm looking for a "body" to fil the spot, they have to be serious about wanting the gig.. but I am in no means looking for an "experienced model".

Tiffiney C wrote:
Do you get a lot of responses for these castings?

Yes, millions (Ok.. not millions.. but lots) But then it depends...
A) If I am casting for a clothed shoot and I'm paying $20/hr... I get flooded with models that are both 'professional' and 'amateur'... clothed is just so easy to get it's almost not worth my time to do TF as I pay less money in Time that I would spend editing pictures for the model then if I just paid them outright $20.
B) Nudes at $20/hr usually get me the art models that usually model at Universities as the schools around here only pay $10 to $15/hr... So the response is smaller, but I still get about 5 to 10 models "interested" in a shoot if I'm paying even $20/hr.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Would it be more beneficial for you to post the casting as TFP with a small stipend for gas/travel then insert the $20-40.

Like I said... The time I would spend editing photos is WAY less to the cost of what I would just give the model in cash... for example.
If I charged someone for a session at "100/hr" I'm shooting for just that hour but in post and editing I"m spending about 5-10 minutes on a photo sometimes less, sometimes considerably more... If I give them $20/hr ($40 for two hours work).. That is less time I have to spend on editing photos they want and more on stuff I want (as generally what I like and what model's like are very different). My Time>Cash

Tiffiney C wrote:
In my opinion, paid assignments are for those looking to get a particular result, have the ability to use/sell for whatever they want, and not HAVE to give model images unless stated (whether you do or not is your preference). That being the case, do you believe that $20/40 dollars is enough to buy out images or is that the reason you get models harassing for images, asking for discs, concerned about what you are later doing with the images.

Like I said earlier, there are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of models willing to let me "buy out" there image for the low charge of $20/hr... believe me, here in Utah.. EVERYONE is willing to do clothed... and whne a clothed casting call comes up and it's a paying gig, the competition is thick so you 'passing it by' the photographer wouldn't notice.

$10/hr for clothed work is just as easy especially if it's a multiple hour shoot.. (e.g. $80 for a day rate clothed)
Nude I have had models request shots for that sort of low rate... Like you said.. they probably just look at it like a TF* shoot with some 'gas' compensation.

But a Day rate of $200 for nudes here in Utah is not uncommon.. I get that often... and quite honestly I have been doing it for 4 years straight every month and haven't had to 'repeat' a model yet...

On the other side though.. There aren't very many models out there that warrant "100/hr" like most models want... there are a few, but not many.

Pretty much.

Except that here you can lower the amount.
Victoria is a strange city, expensive to live in, but low salaried.
Some managers of some stores get $15-20/hr.

And for the models who will only work paid with the top shooters, why is the photographer not getting $100/hr?

Chain Reaction wrote:

No, not everyone. There are a lot of good people that wouldn't even dream of being that unprofessional.

How about "People, both paid and working for trade, will flake."?

Having financial incentive may up the odds that they will show, but there are no guarantees.

A M Johnson wrote:

That is correct. Most models do not make hooker rates. Promo models often make $15.00-$30.00 an hour with $30.00 being reserved for someone who is well experienced and knows the product.

Well, aren't you charming. We say "sex worker rates" now.

Tiffiney C wrote:
Not venting at all. I personally ignore the castings but would like to know the train of thought you all have when posting. I look forward to hearing what you all say!

Edit: 20/hr for 2 hr shoots

Well, it's way better pay than at the drive through at McDonalds. Or not having work at all. As long as some are offering to work for that payment there will be a market. I guess for a student a 5 hour shoot one day gets a her/him $100 to put in the pocket, it's just fine. Plenty of time to study, and no regular job to steal your reading time. Just some extra spending money every now and then.

And to turn it all around I guess the 20$/h llamas gets alot more gigs than the 500$/h newbies that have no experience or talent. A lot of newer llamas have absolutely NO touch with reality.

I think the rate levels always work themselves out just fine. It's regulated by supply and demand.

J.

AJScalzitti wrote:
$20/hr is about $40k per year, just below the median household income in the US.

$30/hr is about $60k per year, just below the median household income in Manhattan,

This is also usually unreported income (over 2.5 times minimum wage)  So factor in a US fed tax rate of at least %25 and I fail to see how that is low pay.  Yes there are jobs that pay more and many of our have been truly fortunate in our lives.

This is a ridiculous comparison.

1) A 4 hour shoot might involve 2 hours travelling, 2 hours replying to emails/calls
2) A model may not expect to get 40 hours a week at that hourly rate, so it is not a full working wage
3) No sick pay, or paid holiday leave
4) No pension, or maternity leave
5) Often weather-dependent, if snowed in and the trains stop running = no shoot or pay
6) You can't model forever, your pay probably won't increase like it would working up the ranks of a company

This is why freelancers always charge more, computer men have a callout charge, the burglar alarm fixer charges an arm and a leg, cleaners are £10ph, because they are not working the entire week, often not even a full 8 hour day.

And the proof of the pudding is, how many rich models have you met?

..just my two pence.

Camerosity wrote:

Bloomberg hasn't outlawed coffee in the big apple yet?

Not yet...and if he tries I'm leading the resistance

Tiffiney C wrote:

I hope you are being facetious. I guess $20 is a lot of money if your job pays $8/hr, or you live with your mom, or you don't have to provide clothing, shoes or wardrobe for the $20 comped shoot. Not saying that you are any of the above, but do you think that $20 is worth 2-4 hours of your time?

Yes, I do.

I would not turn down money, (however at this time am not accepting pay for other reasons but, would never scoff at a job because of the amount.)

If you would like to pass of jobs because they pay so little, then keep doing so and let other's collect them up like skittles and the networking and what not that goes with it.

Jen

Tiffiney C wrote:
Hey all. I have a serious question. Lately I've been seeing more and more casting calls "paid" in the amount of about $20-30 or $20-30/hr. My question to the photographers who post these castings is who is you're target market for these castings? Is it hobbyist models who are excited to get any kind of compensation for a shoot? Are you looking for serious models who can give you the images that you are looking for? Do you get a lot of responses for these castings? Would it be more beneficial for you to post the casting as TFP with a small stipend for gas/travel then insert the $20-40.

In my opinion, paid assignments are for those looking to get a particular result, have the ability to use/sell for whatever they want, and not HAVE to give model images unless stated (whether you do or not is your preference). That being the case, do you believe that $20/40 dollars is enough to buy out images or is that the reason you get models harassing for images, asking for discs, concerned about what you are later doing with the images.

Not venting at all. I personally ignore the castings but would like to know the train of thought you all have when posting. I look forward to hearing what you all say!

Edit: 20/hr for 2 hr shoots

Have to remember, about 80% of the models here are amateurs and that's alot of money for them. As is 80% of the GWC here.

Tiffiney C wrote:

I hope you are being facetious. I guess $20 is a lot of money if your job pays $8/hr, or you live with your mom, or you don't have to provide clothing, shoes or wardrobe for the $20 comped shoot. Not saying that you are any of the above, but do you think that $20 is worth 2-4 hours of your time?

^This

They may as well say TF and some cash for gas money, that would go over better.  At $40-$80, why don't they just round it out to $100 for a half day? (4 hours).  That would be in the range for most models who have some experience (ie not total newbs), but aren't considered in demand or pros.

Personally I just ignore casting calls that offer rates too low for me.  But I think the worst I have seen are $10/hr and they expect the model to find stylists, and provide wardrobe, and drive out of their way to some location.  Some people just don't understand what's reasonable or don't care.

Michael Pandolfo wrote:

I'm even trying to put myself in the shoes of a model with no experience and no professional images. I guess in that case I can disregard the financial aspects and say, "Ok, at least they're getting something to share with the world..." But beyond that I'm having trouble seeing the benefit...for either party really.

I'm a hobbyist with a small amount of experience at this point rather than a professional with a large amount of it, but I think $20 does the following:

1. It compensates gas within a certain mileage. Which isn't a huge deal, but it means that I'm not spending money in addition to time for my hobby, which makes the deal easier to responsibly accept when money's tight.
2. If local, it's $20 more than I had before - buses take time, but the local ones are free for students, and I don't mind sitting with a book or writing in progress for awhile while in transit.

If the $20 is offered in addition to photos, the offer is well worth my time. Yes, it's not going to pay the bills, but it's either being compensated for most of the cost of my hobby or getting paid a few dollars to do something I want to do anyways. And if that $20 is for two hours, I'm getting paid a few dollars more per hour than I do at work to do something that is substantially more fulfilling.