GPS Studio Services wrote:
Yes, I have already said that.   In fact, I have said that the cloud is more expensive overall.  I am sorry, perhaps I am not being clear.

Digitoxin wrote:
Nope.  You are being clear now.  I was just confused why you  bothered to mention taxes at all, if it was a wash, in your point here:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st18246962

I thought I was missing something and the subscription model was treated differently for tax somehow.

Because I was discussing how the net cost to me, after taxes, for the monthly subscription made financial sense.  The tax deduction reduces the actual cost so it really isn't $600 a year, it is closer $400.  I can justify that amount in my business budget.

Ivan Galaviz - Photo wrote:
Just screw Adobe, don't subscribe... what's wrong with CS6? also, are they even speaking of some new tools never seen anywhere? Do they even sell you anything of value?

If mostly everybody ignores CC, they will have to come to their senses.



Or it's time to go to another place..

+1 Agreed! (Strongly!)

I'm the unschooled one, who never apprenticed under a shooter but is doing decently nonetheless (part-time!). I'm accustomed & *more than comfortable with being resourceful and being the underdog. I barely use Photoshop to achieve the look I finish with consistently - albeit the few reasons are vital, granted! They would need to create image manipulation software that has an "x-ray filter" for me to seriously consider monthly payments. It has nothing to do with making sure the money is in the bank for the payments to go through, and although $50/month is something only a crackhead would suggest to me that's not the reason either. It's the principal of being controlled, being taken advantage of, and having my ability to make my own choices reduced by Adobe. I was a multi-published shooter before I ever used an Adobe product, and I began making (a small amount of) money when I introduced Photoshop 7.0 to my workflow. If consumers stick together and reject this move of theirs, they will adjust accordingly. If consumers sign-up regardless of their being fucked in the ass by Adobe, the rest of us will get reamed in the kiester as well - accordingly. I'll do mine, y'all do yours.

IMHO alone;

Ðanny
DBIphotography Toronto (Blog On Site) 
DBImagery Toronto (Website)

“First, they ignore you. Then, they laugh at you. Then, they fight with you. Then, you win.”
~Ghandi

Ivan Galaviz - Photo wrote:
If mostly everybody ignores CC, they will have to come to their senses.

That will never happen.  A big part of their revenue comes from legitimate business clients.  I suspect they expect to lose some of the smaller shooters and artists, but hold fairly steady with their business and corporate clients.  Since they are charging more (and their costs also drop), their bottom line will be unaffected.  In the end, they will make more money with fewer, but more lucrative clients.

Whether or not the amateurs continue to buy it really doesn't matter to them.

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
I'm still trying to get myself wrapped around the concept that anyone would willingly put something so mission-critical to their business into the potential control of 3rd parties?

Client ayment is late? Bank messes up? The CC you use for payment is hacked? a million things can happen to interfere with your subscription and suddenly...your software doesnt work?  How can that possibly be a sound business move for anyone?  We talk about 3 to 17 levels of backup on here, but yet some are willing to put a mission critical component in such a vulnerable situation?  makes no sense to me.

++1!

GPS Studio Services wrote:
Because I was discussing how the net cost to me, after taxes, for the monthly subscription made financial sense.  The tax deduction reduces the actual cost so it really isn't $600 a year, it is closer $400.  I can justify that amount in my business budget.

Of course it makes sense if you can afford it. However, some can't, and some do not want to be tied psychologically.

And, as I have pointed out before (I have been basically told tough titty by a rep), a major group of people will be shut out because of educational cost. Many, and I mean many, secondary educational programs will be affected by this. There are few HS art departments willing to pony up more than they already for this. Heck, many are lucky to afford a new educational license every 5 years. Some are fortunate to have deeper pockets than most schools, even then, most are always about 2 versions behind and only upgrade when forced.

Individual student pricing is 19.99, but only until mid June, then the price spikes to 29.99, and remember, this is listed per person.

To complicate things further, there several students per computer, which likely rotate every semester. Hopefully you can already imagine the headache and time needed to have each student register with an Adobe ID, and don't forget that this will mean many installs on separate partitioned accounts on each computer. Adobe does have a team subscription, but that is 49.00 per, and they also have a site wide license program for education and governmental agencies, but the minimum number of persons needed for this program is rather large, possibly outnumbering students by quite a bit. Classes vary in numbers each semester, so unless there is a blanket cost, They will either cheat Adobe - not possible, or pay more than are enrolled. I am sure Adobe has thought of this, but they have yet to publish.

If Adobe lets this unique subgroup of users to find and learn an alternative way of doing almost all digital production, their will soon be many college students making the same alternative choice, and they will eventually become the creative professionals that Adobe rely on.....

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
I'm still trying to get myself wrapped around the concept that anyone would willingly put something so mission-critical to their business into the potential control of 3rd parties?

Client ayment is late? Bank messes up? The CC you use for payment is hacked? a million things can happen to interfere with your subscription and suddenly...your software doesnt work?  How can that possibly be a sound business move for anyone?  We talk about 3 to 17 levels of backup on here, but yet some are willing to put a mission critical component in such a vulnerable situation?  makes no sense to me.

Adobe is less critical than SAP, and SAP goes cloud way too (not only though)

ForeverFotos wrote:
I'm still using CS2 and I see absolutely no reason to upgrade it. It's the same for windows, my photoshop computer is still on windows XP. I've had this philosophy with software for years that upgrading just for the sake of upgrading is a waste of money. I've avoided mounds of problems and thousands of headaches by staying with versions that worked just fine.

If if works, why fix it?

the current Adobe camera RAW doesn't work with older versions of Photoshop and without that you can't directly access the RAW files of the latest cameras.

R Michael Walker wrote:

the current Adobe camera RAW doesn't work with older versions of Photoshop and without that you can't directly access the RAW files of the latest cameras.

ACR updates have been something we've had to deal with forever. I upgraded to CS5, then soon thereafter upgraded to a D600, which isn't supported. We make due with other RAW converters (ViewNX2 at the moment) and then process with the older versions of photoshop.

StudioCMC wrote:
Here is the link that seems to matter the most... 

https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AADBE

I saw that last night. I like the big dip from May 7th to today (May 10). Lets hope it keeps going down and the person or persons responsible for this is carted off the the insane asylums.

Christopher Hartman wrote:
I guess I'll finally get Lightroom...or is that going to the cloud as well?

No, LR is staying box......for now.

KonstantKarma wrote:
Instead of paying a one-time leasing fee, you now lease monthly..

Except, the one-time fee, by its nature was fixed.  The monthly fee is not. 

The issue here is the loss of customer control and the inevitable march towards higher and higher monthly fees that you CANNOT avoid paying.

If adobe wanted to raise the price on an upgrade, you had a choice to skip it or pay for it.  Now, you don't have a choice.  I predict that the $20 per month PS-only subscription will cost $25 2 years from now and will be $35 per month 4 years from now.  Sure, adobe will add some junk to the PS-0nly subscription bundle that you may or may not want each time they raise the price but, lets hope you want all of it because you are going to pay for it anyway.  You no longer have a choice .....  I think that is the biggest issue.

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
I'm still trying to get myself wrapped around the concept that anyone would willingly put something so mission-critical to their business into the potential control of 3rd parties?

Client payment is late? Bank messes up? The CC you use for payment is hacked? a million things can happen to interfere with your subscription and suddenly...your software doesnt work?  How can that possibly be a sound business move for anyone?  We talk about 3 to 17 levels of backup on here, but yet some are willing to put a mission critical component in such a vulnerable situation?  makes no sense to me.

There are lots of horror stories from smaller auto repair businesses.  Specialized billing software for them used to have much more competition than it does at present. Many previously popular packages have been orphaned, some with no upgrade/migration path.
A simple power glitch that can damage a database, or a random hardware failure can leave these businesses without access to records needed for taxes and warranties.
Surviving players are generally "multi seat" "multi bay garage" licenced and start at $15k. plus a "new spec" computer, plus data conversion if it's even available, a huge expense for a shop where 1 or 2 mechanics make a living.

KonstantKarma wrote:
No one's ever actually 'bought' Photoshop - Remember, you're only leasing it, you've just owned an installation CD and a local installation. Now, you're leasing it but it's installed on the cloud.

It does feel like you've "bought" it because you have the CD in your hand, but it's a little misleading.

Instead of paying a one-time leasing fee, you now lease monthly. Instead of installing locally, it's now installed on 'the cloud' and non-locally. There's not much different.

It's vastly different, specifically in #14.5, as Adobe has eliminated the possibility of acquiring a full retail license.  They require everyone to use a timeout version, so, as they include in all caps, "ACCESS TO ANY FILES OR OUTPUT CREATED WITH SUCH SOFTWARE OR ANY PRODUCT ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH SOFTWARE IS ENTIRELY AT YOUR OWN RISK."

Using Creative Cloud software is, by Adobe's own statement, risky.

KonstantKarma wrote:
Instead of paying a one-time leasing fee, you now lease monthly. Instead of installing locally, it's now installed on 'the cloud' and non-locally. There's not much different.

Except for one huge difference, the price, which is higher and outside your control.

Digitoxin wrote:

KonstantKarma wrote:
Instead of paying a one-time leasing fee, you now lease monthly..

Except, the one-time fee, by its nature was fixed.  The monthly fee is not. 

The issue here is the loss of customer control and the inevitable march towards higher and higher monthly fees that you CANNOT avoid paying.

If adobe wanted to raise the price on an upgrade, you had a choice to skip it or pay for it.  Now, you don't have a choice.  I predict that the $20 per month PS-only subscription will cost $25 2 years from now and will be $35 per month 4 years from now.  Sure, adobe will add some junk to the PS-0nly subscription bundle that you may or may not want each time they raise the price but, lets hope you want all of it because you are going to pay for it anyway.  You no longer have a choice .....  I think that is the biggest issue.

WMcK wrote:

Except for one huge difference, the price, which is higher and outside your control.

Oh, I'm sure it will go up.

Brian Diaz wrote:

It's vastly different, specifically in #14.5, as Adobe has eliminated the possibility of acquiring a full retail license.  They require everyone to use a timeout version, so, as they include in all caps, "ACCESS TO ANY FILES OR OUTPUT CREATED WITH SUCH SOFTWARE OR ANY PRODUCT ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH SOFTWARE IS ENTIRELY AT YOUR OWN RISK."

Using Creative Cloud software is, by Adobe's own statement, risky.

Better wrap it before you tap it.

BlueMoonPics wrote:
I just went searching for an upgrade from Photoshop CS5 to CS6 but can't find it.
I looked in Staples, Google, Amazon, B&H and Adobe itself where it's all cloud subscriptions.
Argh!

Does anyone know if there is still an availability to upgrade from CS5 to CS6?
At this point I'm only curious as I really don't want to give Adobe any more of my money.

Think this link will take you there if you are in the US:

http://www.adobe.com/products/catalog/c … l?start=10

Click on Buy now, then you´ll come to a new page with a list of programmes. At least I don´t see CS6 on that page, but  when I scroll down, go to page 2 and back again to page 1 Photoshop CS6 suddenly appears.

If this is how it is meant to work it´s really messed up.

Click buy and select full or upgrade.

Gary Melton wrote:
Bottom line:

It appears that this is a good thing for a percentage of Adobe's customers...my best guess is maybe 20-35% of their customers AT MOST (certainly, absolutely - it is less than 50% of their customers).

So, Adobe is just trying to cram something down the throats of MILLIONS of their customers who CLEARLY DON'T WANT THIS NEW DEAL!!!

Wake up Adobe and listen to your customers...or don't you care?!

I have no idea what the percentages are, but I do agree with you.  I think there are three classes of people:

1.  Those who like it.

2.  Those who don't like it or are neutral but will go with the flow.

3.  Those who hate it.

I am certain that numbers two and three outnumber one.  I am sure that Adobe knows this, they just think they can make it fly.  For the record, they have never thought about customers all that much.  A good example is CS6.  Prior to CS6, if you have a previous version of CS you could upgrade to the current version.  With CS6, they changed it so you could only upgrade from CS5.

Then they established a policy that once a new version of CS came up, the updated RAW converters wouldn't install unless you got the latest version of CS.  They have been forcing us to upgrade and raising prices.

For me that is why I fit into number 2.  I need the products so, at least with a subscription, I have a predictable monthly cost and always have the latest verison.  I see it as a big gamble for them but I don't see them backing down.

Gary Melton wrote:
Bottom line:

It appears that this is a good thing for a percentage of Adobe's customers...my best guess is maybe 20-35% of their customers AT MOST (certainly, absolutely - it is less than 50% of their customers).

So, Adobe is just trying to cram something down the throats of MILLIONS of their customers who CLEARLY DON'T WANT THIS NEW DEAL!!!

Wake up Adobe and listen to your customers...or don't you care?!

+1   (And I'd be surprised if they did care.  Although there was one company that did drop their plan who did respond to their customers when they pulled something similar a year ago?  Forgot who though?)

Sadly, some will sign on for this Adobe monthly plan and fuel their scheme.  Imagine if Microsoft had pulled this same stunt with DOS 3.3 and then just sat back, raked in money for decades with no innovation guaranteed.  They could have sold it to some billionaire with no programming skills at all who could still be making billions on the deal pushing the same old crap out there.  Might be lucky to have DOS 3.4 by now.

If you still had use of the program after ending payment, then 'maybe' it would be a good idea and one could pay to upgrade if they did bring something new to the table other than a rate hike and a new camera ACR added.  But shutting it off is absurd in its current form.  Even AutoDesk doesn't pull that stunt, but they innovate to the next version enough to entice people to stick with them.

If Adobe has bought all these Cloud outfits and their licensing, then something is wrong since those companies couldn't make a viable plan to pull this egregious scheme off other than selling the idea to Adobe.  Kodak tried some cloud thing years ago and it tanked.

Just wait.  This will spread like wildfire to cell phone and tablet apps if sheeple-people follow Adobe's lead.  Write the program once, then just sit back make money and never innovate it again or do so minimally.  It takes several version of PS now before any true innovation even shows up for people to want to upgrade.  Stop paying now and you got squat to show for it.  What a plan!

Retailers are upset as well since they will longer see any profit from selling some of Adobe's products either.  Mine offered classes if you bought the box.  Probably no more past CS6.  No incentive too.

Somewhere down the line when their prices increase to $100/mo. people will drop off and then get the sales pitch: "We'll offer it to you for one year for $19.95 if you buy our 2 year contract." much like the satellite companies do right now.  Some will pay $100, and the others $19.95 for the same degree of service.  Amazing scam.

GPS Studio Services wrote:

That will never happen.  A big part of their revenue comes from legitimate business clients.  I suspect they expect to lose some of the smaller shooters and artists, but hold fairly steady with their business and corporate clients.  Since they are charging more (and their costs also drop), their bottom line will be unaffected.  In the end, they will make more money with fewer, but more lucrative clients.

Whether or not the amateurs continue to buy it really doesn't matter to them.

Do you think the majority of users are professionals?

GRMACK wrote:
+1   (And I'd be surprised if they did care.  Although ...

< a whole lot of stuff I TOTALLY AGREE with >

...Amazing scam.

Yes - this is incredibly insidious and has HUGE ramifications going forward for how other businesses will act going forward.

We all need to ACT and "nip it in the bud" before it spreads to other areas!  We need to vote with our check books, and not buy into this!

Gary Melton wrote:
BAD idea...if Adobe does this with PS, I will start looking for a viable alternative!

Wow...this is SO totally bad for me...I have PS CS6, InDesign CS5, Dreamweaver CS6, PS Elements, PS Premier Elements, PS Lightroom...i.e.: I have a TON of money invested in Adobe products!!!

The thing which has always bothered me about Adobe the most is exactly what you said. I have a ton of money invested in Adobe products and their policies never seem to reward their most loyal customers.

For example, a while ago I wanted to upgrade to the Master Collection. I spent hours interfacing with Adobe "customer service" and the upshot was that, even though I already had purchased a ton of the components, I did not qualify for the upgrade price. I was trying to give them something like $1,300 and they wouldn't take it. They wanted to charge me the same as someone who had only ever purchased one or maybe none of their products.

Leighthenubian wrote:
Scott Kelby's take on it:  http://youtu.be/N8HrvJdxla8

'Sorry, but I never trust clicking on a link where a popular website URL has been "re-arranged"... ("youtu.be" instead of "youtube").

Anytime you see that, anyone who clicks on it is just ASKING for a virus, malware, spyware or a tracking cookie at the very least...

[Why would they do that EXCEPT to deceive you?!]

GPS Studio Services wrote:
That will never happen.  A big part of their revenue comes from legitimate business clients.  I suspect they expect to lose some of the smaller shooters and artists, but hold fairly steady with their business and corporate clients.  Since they are charging more (and their costs also drop), their bottom line will be unaffected.  In the end, they will make more money with fewer, but more lucrative clients.

Whether or not the amateurs continue to buy it really doesn't matter to them.

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
Do you think the majority of users are professionals?

Probably.  They have really been re-designing and re-pricing the suites to make them appeal to pros and businesses. I am sure there are a lot of serious amateurs that use it, but there are so many commercial art facilities, video and movie production houses, printing companies, graphic designers, I think this is really targeted towards them.  Beyond them, every major corporation from Boeing to JC Penney has use for their products as well.  The corporate and professional audience is huge and much more than just photographers.

Adobe has always has less expensive products to cater to the amateur crowd.