Photographer
J Millman Photography
Posts: 198
Norwich, England, United Kingdom
Ok, I have yet to pay a model to model for me, although recently I have discussed doing so with someone on here. Having never done so before, am I right or wrong to assume that the model should not expect any images from the shoot, as, after all, she is being paid in return for her time? I ask because the member I have been discussing this issue with seemed somewhat surprised that I don't think she should be expecting any of the images. Thanks.
Photographer
Jay Leavitt
Posts: 6745
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
J Millman Photography wrote: Ok, I have yet to pay a model to model for me, although recently I have discussed doing so with someone on here. Having never done so before, am I right or wrong to assume that the model should not expect any images from the shoot, as, after all, she is being paid in return for her time? I ask because the member I have been discussing this issue with seemed somewhat surprised that I don't think she should be expecting any of the images. Thanks. If she wants images, she can request a TF shoot.
Photographer
NewBoldPhoto
Posts: 5216
PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US
-JAY- wrote: If she wants images, she can request a TF shoot. Or pay for said images
Photographer
GeorgeMann
Posts: 1148
Orange, California, US
J Millman Photography wrote: Ok, I have yet to pay a model to model for me, although recently I have discussed doing so with someone on here. Having never done so before, am I right or wrong to assume that the model should not expect any images from the shoot, as, after all, she is being paid in return for her time? I ask because the member I have been discussing this issue with seemed somewhat surprised that I don't think she should be expecting any of the images. Thanks. Forget the other member and what he/she does and come to an agreement with the model. Many photographers do not furnish images if they pay the model, while many do. Some use images as part of the sitting payment and the real cheapos even use snacks or lunch as part of the payment. Models are the same as you, me, and everyone else. They eat, pay rent, buy gas, etc., and photographs are not accepted normally by landlords, grocery stores, or gas stations.
Photographer
J Millman Photography
Posts: 198
Norwich, England, United Kingdom
'-Jay- & newboldphoto' Your comments mirror exactly the type of thoughts that I was having too. I just didn't understand her apparent confusion over this, I even stated that if she wasn't happy with my proposal, I would be open to negotiation. I've had no reply. I wonder if others have shared a similar experience?
Photographer
REMOVED
Posts: 1546
Atlanta, Georgia, US
That would depend entirely on the reputation you would like to have among models. Do you suppose that models in ads, editorials, and catalog work don't get images of their work in addition to their day rates? One isn't discussing 20x24" platinum prints, the cost to email a model a few jpegs is how much exactly?
Photographer
Michael Lohr
Posts: 510
Los Angeles, California, US
Silly not to give the model a couple of the best pictures of the shoot. Photography is about networking. Chances are the model you hire has a larger network then you. The more your pictures get out there, the greater the chance opportunity will come your way.
Photographer
J Millman Photography
Posts: 198
Norwich, England, United Kingdom
'Fotopia & Michael Lohr' Hmmmm....interesting viewpoints that I hadn't yet considered...
Photographer
J Millman Photography
Posts: 198
Norwich, England, United Kingdom
'Georgemann' Received and understood....thanks for your view...
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
Shit, you might as well pay extra so they put them in their port!
Photographer
Mark C Smith
Posts: 1073
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If I paid a model I'd probably give her a couple images with very strict usage guidelines.
Photographer
Jay Farrell
Posts: 13408
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Michael Lohr wrote: Silly not to give the model a couple of the best pictures of the shoot. Photography is about networking. Chances are the model you hire has a larger network then you. The more your pictures get out there, the greater the chance opportunity will come your way. This is what I feel is the best answer. As long as their performance met your expectations.
Model
Kat Mae Model
Posts: 361
York, Pennsylvania, US
It would be a shame to give a model any images after paying them! After all, who the heck wants free advertising! Especially with models who get thousands of views to their accounts daily. Better to just remain unknown and horde the images for your own collection.
Photographer
Bare Essential Photos
Posts: 3605
Upland, California, US
Michael Lohr wrote: Silly not to give the model a couple of the best pictures of the shoot. Photography is about networking. Chances are the model you hire has a larger network then you. The more your pictures get out there, the greater the chance opportunity will come your way. Yes, I agree! I pay models and give them all the images I keep : )
Photographer
David Stone Imaging
Posts: 1032
Seattle, Washington, US
Most models do not understand the legalites of the photographer/model contract. Yes, you own the images if you pay for the modeling. However, if my photography has something to offer a new model, I will often negotiate a combination of TF and reduced modeling fees. When I first started, one model wanted full payment. I didn't give her any images...but when I put the images up on my MM port, she copied them. I let it go. All things considered...when a model puts a photographer's work in her port around here (MM), it helps the photographer with a kind of advertising not available anywhere else.
Photographer
David Stone Imaging
Posts: 1032
Seattle, Washington, US
Kithos wrote: It would be a shame to give a model any images after paying them! After all, who the heck wants free advertising! Especially with models who get thousands of views to their accounts daily. Better to just remain unknown and horde the images for your own collection. Exactly. That's why I pay all the models I work with, and I also give them images.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Michael Lohr wrote: Silly not to give the model a couple of the best pictures of the shoot. Photography is about networking. Chances are the model you hire has a larger network then you. The more your pictures get out there, the greater the chance opportunity will come your way. Opportunity to hire more models and give away your work, sounds like a ideal business plan.
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
Michael Lohr wrote: Silly not to give the model a couple of the best pictures of the shoot. Photography is about networking. Chances are the model you hire has a larger network then you. The more your pictures get out there, the greater the chance opportunity will come your way. AJScalzitti wrote: Opportunity to hire more models and give away your work, sounds like a ideal business plan.
Photographer
Mike Colwell Photograph
Posts: 56
Longview, Texas, US
Michael Lohr wrote: Silly not to give the model a couple of the best pictures of the shoot. Photography is about networking. Chances are the model you hire has a larger network then you. The more your pictures get out there, the greater the chance opportunity will come your way. +1
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
AJScalzitti wrote: Opportunity to hire more models and give away your work, sounds like a ideal business plan. Love it!!! If I pay, I want a full commercial release, and then I might, just might give out some images. If some young lady wants a bunch FB pics so she can look hot for her friends, then she can pay ME, or at least TF. If you work for free, the word will spread that you work for free.
Photographer
MedievalIce
Posts: 233
Ithaca, New York, US
My feeling is that part of the point of paying a model is to not have to provide images. Unless of course, a reduced rate is negotiated for said images. However, I will often provide a model with images after I have finished working on them, but by paying a model I feel that gives me the complete right to choose which images I process and how long I take with them.
Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 3576
Kerhonkson, New York, US
To the many voices who advise no pay = no images: What exactly do you gain by withholding images from a model? You obviously valued his/her contribution to your shoot enough to hire them. If not, they why did you hire them? What do you think is going into your pocket by denying a model images of themselves. Doesn't that same logic apply to a model showing examples of tearsheets from a magazine shoot. Were you suggesting policing that too...?
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Dan Howell wrote: To the many voices who advise no pay = no images: What exactly do you gain by withholding images from a model? You obviously valued his/her contribution to your shoot enough to hire them. If not, they why did you hire them? What do you think is going into your pocket by denying a model images of themselves. Doesn't that same logic apply to a model showing examples of tearsheets from a magazine shoot. Were you suggesting policing that too...? My ability to sell those images to that same magazine.
Photographer
ddtphoto
Posts: 2590
Chicago, Illinois, US
I think it's somewhere in between. I just shot an editorial thing and used a model from here. She was paid for the shoot but I'm more than happy to give her the hero image that I worked on for the magazine and maybe one or two others that have received less attention but are still great images. This is what I would call a "courtesy" move. But when it's a trade shoot I treat the model more as the client... do a tight edit for them and give them some choices, finish 5 or 6 selections.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Dan Howell wrote: To the many voices who advise no pay = no images: What exactly do you gain by withholding images from a model? Give a model two choices. 1) I'll do a trade shoot with you, and you'll get images. 2) I'll pay you, and I'll also give you images. Which is the model going to choose? If the model believes your work would enhance her portfolio, she should be willing to trade with you or pay you (or at the very least give you a deeply discounted rate). But by giving the model that choice, you've taken away any incentive to trade with you. That leaves you with a choice. Which foot do you want to shoot yourself in?
Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 3576
Kerhonkson, New York, US
AJScalzitti wrote: My ability to sell those images to that same magazine. Your ability to sell images to a magazine is not impinged by providing a model with selected images given timing and selection parameters. You are flat out wrong if you suggest that there is an absolute prohibition between publication and providing images. It is unprofessional or uninformed to say that there is.
Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 3576
Kerhonkson, New York, US
Camerosity wrote: 1) I'll do a trade shoot with you, and you'll get images. 2) I'll pay you, and I'll also give you images. Which is the model going to choose? Which foot do you want to shoot yourself in? Bullshit. You do not get the same selection of models in form 1) as you do in form 2). I select the models that are appropriate for for the project I am doing. I try not to limit myself to only TF models. Assuming I have a budget for models, I don't negotiate with images. Similarly, I don't negotiate with my magazine clients for a quantity of magazines when I accept a job. I expect they will provide them to me. The foot you shoot is your own if yours, not mine, if you think that your two options encompass all possibilities. Personally I bill more to my clients than I would ever expect to get from models. Why don't you?
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Camerosity wrote: 1) I'll do a trade shoot with you, and you'll get images. 2) I'll pay you, and I'll also give you images. Which is the model going to choose? Which foot do you want to shoot yourself in? Dan Howell wrote: Bullshit. You do not get the same selection of models in form 1) as you do in form 2). The foot you shoot is your own if yours, not mine, if you think that your two options encompass all possibilities. Personally I bill more to my clients than I would ever expect to get from models. Why don't you? The question is hypothetical, since I don't pay models for shoots that I'm not receiving income from.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Dan Howell wrote: Your ability to sell images to a magazine is not impinged by providing a model with selected images given timing and selection parameters. You are flat out wrong if you suggest that there is an absolute prohibition between publication and providing images. It is unprofessional or uninformed to say that there is. I agree, you are uninformed. I have had several opportunities that have stated the images must have never been published or shown prior, including social media. I have sold images from test and trades to publications and book publishers. Sure I can give them to the model after the fact, common practice to provide tears actually but that is another issue.
Photographer
Michael Lohr
Posts: 510
Los Angeles, California, US
AJScalzitti wrote: Opportunity to hire more models and give away your work, sounds like a ideal business plan. If one is hiring models to work on their book then it usually means they are not quite up to the level to get the models they would like to get for free. So one is really not giving away anything that has any material value.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Dan Howell wrote: Your ability to sell images to a magazine is not impinged by providing a model with selected images given timing and selection parameters. You are flat out wrong if you suggest that there is an absolute prohibition between publication and providing images. It is unprofessional or uninformed to say that there is. AJScalzitti wrote: I agree, you are uninformed. I have had several opportunities that have stated the images must have never been published or shown prior, including social media. I have sold images from test and trades to publications and book publishers. Sure I can give them to the model after the fact, common practice to provide tears actually but that is another issue. AJ is correct. The vast majority of magazines won't publish photos that have been published before - and that includes photos that have appeared in a public portfolio on the Internet or in social media. That's why I have a password-protected folder on my portfolio page - for photos that are pending publication. If access is restricted, most magazines are okay with that. One photo editor asked me (three times!) whether any of the photos I had submitted had been posted on Facebook or any other site - before he'd even look at the photos.
Photographer
ddtphoto
Posts: 2590
Chicago, Illinois, US
AJScalzitti wrote: My ability to sell those images to that same magazine. But nobody's talking about giving the model that you pay for a shoot right's to whatever images you give them outside of self promotion/ portfolio.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Fotopia wrote: That would depend entirely on the reputation you would like to have among models. Do you suppose that models in ads, editorials, and catalog work don't get images of their work in addition to their day rates? One isn't discussing 20x24" platinum prints, the cost to email a model a few jpegs is how much exactly? Actually they don't they actually have to go buy the magazine and tear the image out or go find it in the web and save it. The client is to busy to be sending images out to everyone they hire.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Michael Lohr wrote: If one is hiring models to work on their book then it usually means they are not quite up to the level to get the models they would like to get for free. So one is really not giving away anything that has any material value. A little over a year ago I did a trade shoot with a model and gave her seven images, all of which are in her portfolio. My average post-processing time is about three hours per photo. The model's profile now says that she expects a minimum of 15 photos from a shoot - whether it's trade or paid. Good luck with that.
Photographer
ddtphoto
Posts: 2590
Chicago, Illinois, US
Camerosity wrote: Give a model two choices. 1) I'll do a trade shoot with you, and you'll get images. 2) I'll pay you, and I'll also give you images. Which is the model going to choose? If the model believes your work would enhance her portfolio, she should be willing to trade with you or pay you (or at the very least give you a deeply discounted rate). But by giving the model that choice, you've taken away any incentive to trade with you. That leaves you with a choice. Which foot do you want to shoot yourself in? I think that if the clients you are going after are models looking for portfolio building then you make a good point.
Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 3576
Kerhonkson, New York, US
AJScalzitti wrote: I agree, you are uninformed. I have had several opportunities that have stated the images must have never been published or shown prior, including social media. I have sold images from test and trades to publications and book publishers. Sure I can give them to the model after the fact, common practice to provide tears actually but that is another issue. Guess you missed this part: "given timing and selection parameters" There are many shades of exclusivity and embargo with image sales. Some pertain to models; some have absolutely no bearing. I'm willing to put my 20 years of full-time magazine photography experience and that of my peers against your 'several opportunities' in contrasting your assertions.
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 5805
Saint Louis, Missouri, US
Camerosity wrote: Give a model two choices. 1) I'll do a trade shoot with you, and you'll get images. 2) I'll pay you, and I'll also give you images. Which is the model going to choose? If the model believes your work would enhance her portfolio, she should be willing to trade with you or pay you (or at the very least give you a deeply discounted rate). But by giving the model that choice, you've taken away any incentive to trade with you. That leaves you with a choice. Which foot do you want to shoot yourself in? ddtphoto wrote: I think that if the clients you are going after are models looking for portfolio building then you make a good point. Yes, I have done paid shoots for models' portfolios. Not enough to make a living - but in a good month, enough to make my mortgage payment.
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4615
Los Angeles, California, US
IMO... If you pay a model: 1. You can have control over the shoot concept, length of time of the shoot, and overall get exactly what you are looking for out of your day (assuming the rest of the team and/or the model does their part, of course). 2. You can have control over the selection process of the images. There's no need to think about "Will the model like this pose?" or "Does this show the makeup enough for the makeup artist?" or "Will this please the stylist who brought all those clothes?" 3. You can take as long as you want editing (or don't edit them at all if you aren't happy with them). 4. You aren't expected to send anything to anyone. ... but if you do send something to someone, I believe it can benefit you in the following ways: 1. S/he may LOVE the images and want to shoot with you again - including potential on negotiated lowered rates for your work or even on an entire test/trade basis. 2. S/he can post the images you sent him/her which is extra exposure! Yay! This can get you new models, new muas, new stylists, etc - potentially even on test/trade basis due to every new negotiation being, well, new In short, you most certainly don't owe anyone anything if you are paying the rate that justifies that, but if the project is done (you have selected, edited, published, etc as necessary), if there's no limitations on those images being shown elsewhere, and if they're sitting finished in your harddrive, a minute out of your day to email a few webres images to the team from your shoot with them would most likely help more than hurt. Just my two cents, of course Maybe I'm biased as a model
Photographer
Michael Lohr
Posts: 510
Los Angeles, California, US
A-M-P wrote: Actually they don't they actually have to go buy the magazine and tear the image out or go find it in the web and save it. Your joking right? Maybe that is how certain people run their business. Best practice is to take care of the people that are part of the team. Good work begets more good jobs. One might get their next job from someone else viewing a models or makeup artist portfolio and seeing the shot there.
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