Sandra Vixen wrote:
Uuuh? I'm sorry if I came across that way.

But seriously, would you include rappers as PhD's?

Seriously, take a dance class, of real technical dance, and then say I'm "elitist".

There are a LOT of dancers and dance teachers that I have come across who are a lot less inclusive than I am.

+1000

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Most strippers barely dance they walk around trying to get lap dances from patrons. There was a time even in the seventies where clubs had headliners doing wonderful acts much like the Crazy Horse in Paris.  Those almost never exist

That is because customers no longer tip much for stage shows. Twenty years ago, a good exotic dancer, who developed a show with some interesting moves, contortions, or any strong performance aspect, could make $100 on a stage set - or more. Twenty years ago, stages were full, and people tipped tens and twenties.

Now, on any given night at a "hometown" American strip joint, you're lucky to have 5 customers sitting at the stage, and you might take $8-$10 in one dollar bills off each stage set you do. There are days/nights when there are no customers at stages at all, and girls cycle on and off the stage, while three customers sit at the bar for hours on end, with scowls on their faces, drinking beer after beer, and staring at the television. There is no longer the expectation that these people tip dancers, or watch stage shows. It's really pretty sad.

Therefore, the motivation to actually perform for customers becomes lowered. Back a few years ago, I could spend every stage set doing pole work and elaborate tricks with my body that would get applause and cheers - on the rare night you actually managed to have a semi-full stage of viewers. However, I made no more money for putting that level of energy into it, than I did when I just walked around and flashed my boobs, and flirted with people. No one cared how much energy I put into the stage show, and the income from killing myself in performance and waking up with sore knees and bruises the next day, was not noticeably higher on shifts where I went all out with entertaining people. I did it while I was still young enough to do it, because I enjoyed it. Giving a really good stage show is a lot of fun. It can be a great job.

Girls get sick of working on tricks, dealing with athletic injuries (yes, strippers get sports injuries, including bursitis in the knees which is VERY common among exotic dancers, as well as joint problems, and pinched nerves), waking up sore and stiff, only to do this day after day after day -- for an audience of 2 or 3 scowling, hyper-critical, elderly men, who may (or may not) give them $3 at the stage.

That's certainly not enough of an income to pay for the chiropractic and massage therapy visits you are likely to need after devoting 3 or 5 years of your life to acrobatics, and pole tricks. It's just not.

Sandra Vixen wrote:
The definition of performance dance is an uncontrolled spontaneous chaotic sequence of movements, it requires no meaningful effort, education, or training.

As one professor put it, "it is often confused with a seizure".

Performing dance (the opposite of performance dance) requires many years of training, education, and lots of pre-planning (choreographing) before it is displayed.

For me, as a real dancer, I can clearly tell that the above subjects are not dancers and have no training. They are ok as models though and there is nothing wrong with them. But they are not dancers.

They are far from passionate, sensual, or erotic.

Real dancers can take sensual and erotic to a higher level that exotic dancers will never reach (warning: some 18+):

http://www.classicalballet.ru/eng/ballets/lisistrata/

http://www.classicalballet.ru/eng/ballets/creation/

With respect your prof is talking BS.

Performance dance is any dance done for people to watch. This contrasts with dancing done for your own pleasure. Making a distinction between performance and preforming is the worst sort of pseudo intellectual claptrap and frankly done only to justify writing papers.

You should try looking at some post structuralist theory to see this type thing utterly debunked.

If he wants to try to craft some "term of art" to legitimise choreographed dancing then that's his choice but it's a long way off being any sort of a universally accepted definition.

As for "Real dancers can take sensual and erotic to a higher level that exotic dancers " 1. stunningly elitist - who defines "real dancer"? 2. obviously wrong - almost to the point of idiocy - I know lots of guys go to strip clubs to get sexually excited, dont know one who go to the ballet to spank one out.

Really your post shows that a little learning is indeed a dangerous thing. By restricting "real" to mean "high culture" you create a self referential framework which fails in its analysis of reality.

Sandra Vixen wrote:
Uuuh? I'm sorry if I came across that way.

But seriously, would you include rappers as PhD's?

Would deny that they are performers?

Seriously, take a dance class, of real technical dance, and then say I'm "elitist".

Why? why is only "technical" dance real? That's a VERY western culture centric view of what dancing is. A sufi dervish whirling in a street market or a haitian girl being ridden by papa legba are every bit as much dancing as some underfed robot with ritually bound and  broken feet in the bolshoi. Saying they're not is really a bit racist.


There are a LOT of dancers and dance teachers that I have come across who are a lot less inclusive than I am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqH_0LPVoho - get new friends

Sandra Vixen wrote:
The definition of performance dance is an uncontrolled spontaneous chaotic sequence of movements, it requires no meaningful effort, education, or training.

As one professor put it, "it is often confused with a seizure".

Performing dance (the opposite of performance dance) requires many years of training, education, and lots of pre-planning (choreographing) before it is displayed.

For me, as a real dancer, I can clearly tell that the above subjects are not dancers and have no training. They are ok as models though and there is nothing wrong with them. But they are not dancers.

They are far from passionate, sensual, or erotic.

Real dancers can take sensual and erotic to a higher level that exotic dancers will never reach (warning: some 18+):

http://www.classicalballet.ru/eng/ballets/lisistrata/

http://www.classicalballet.ru/eng/ballets/creation/

Are you trolling or just plain ignorant?

Virtual Studio wrote:

I always thought ballet was an Emperor's New Clothes thing anyway, don't we all know it's boring and pointless but we have to pretend otherwise otherwise for fear we'll look ignorant and uncultured?

Rob Photosby wrote:

Are you trolling or just plain ignorant?

It is a marketing strategy.

JadeDRed wrote:
I always thought ballet was an Emperor's New Clothes thing anyway, don't we all know it's boring and pointless but we have to pretend otherwise otherwise for fear we'll look ignorant and uncultured?

That's the High Culture v Low Culture debate.

There is a body of thought which says that by perpetuating High Culture and eschewing anything which doesn't meet its norms and standards as being worthless societies' elites keep control of the cultural agenda and use it to reinforce their position.

While I dont think it's still quite as black and white as that there is certainly in exclusionary element in almost all High Culture arts. Opera, Ballet, Classical Music are all impenetrable unless you have been introduced and educated to them - and that tends to happen only to an elite.

Tampa Bay Glamour  wrote:
Modeling and exotic dancing - do the two go together? I think they can and do! What do you MM models think?

Check out this interview by the beautiful Amanda Queen and her Pharaoh's Daughters Modeling Agency! She is always looking for new models so if you are interested, check out the interview and apply online!

http://glammodelz.com/glam/modelz/amanda-queen/  

Nice segway into an advert for a model agency

Sandra Vixen wrote:
Exotic dancing is not dancing.

Exotic dancers may or may not (usually not) dancers.

If you want to see real dance photography at its best:

Lois Greenfield - Contemporary Dance
http://www.loisgreenfield.com/

Richard Calmes - Classical Dance
http://www.pbase.com/rcalmes

Your generalizations are not persuasive, rather they inform one that your viewpoint is too rigid to have any substantial value.

ALL dancers are "real" dancers. ALL photography of dancers is "real" dance photography.

Yes, some dancers/photos are more engaging than others but that is a completely random phenomenon with no measurable basis.

Real world is real, your world does not exist anywhere outside your closed perspective.

Nice work, by the way.

Top Gun Digital wrote:
I've found that dancers, particularly those that have been classically trained usually make very good models.  They are very aware of their bodies and are always conscious of how each part of their body is positioned.  If they still actively dance they also tend to be very flexible.

+1, the best.

Barry Lategan Pirelli ... dancer, they tried models but the whole casting didn't work out... hence dancers.

Sandra Vixen wrote:
The definition of performance dance is an uncontrolled spontaneous chaotic sequence of movements, it requires no meaningful effort, education, or training.

As one professor put it, "it is often confused with a seizure".

Performing dance (the opposite of performance dance) requires many years of training, education, and lots of pre-planning (choreographing) before it is displayed.

For me, as a real dancer, I can clearly tell that the above subjects are not dancers and have no training. They are ok as models though and there is nothing wrong with them. But they are not dancers.

They are far from passionate, sensual, or erotic.

Real dancers can take sensual and erotic to a higher level that exotic dancers will never reach (warning: some 18+):

http://www.classicalballet.ru/eng/ballets/lisistrata/

http://www.classicalballet.ru/eng/ballets/creation/

Just a hunch... a guess here... I bet you're a ballet dancer

Koryn wrote:

That is because customers no longer tip much for stage shows. Twenty years ago, a good exotic dancer, who developed a show with some interesting moves, contortions, or any strong performance aspect, could make $100 on a stage set - or more. Twenty years ago, stages were full, and people tipped tens and twenties.

Now, on any given night at a "hometown" American strip joint, you're lucky to have 5 customers sitting at the stage, and you might take $8-$10 in one dollar bills off each stage set you do. There are days/nights when there are no customers at stages at all, and girls cycle on and off the stage, while three customers sit at the bar for hours on end, with scowls on their faces, drinking beer after beer, and staring at the television. There is no longer the expectation that these people tip dancers, or watch stage shows. It's really pretty sad.

Therefore, the motivation to actually perform for customers becomes lowered. Back a few years ago, I could spend every stage set doing pole work and elaborate tricks with my body that would get applause and cheers - on the rare night you actually managed to have a semi-full stage of viewers. However, I made no more money for putting that level of energy into it, than I did when I just walked around and flashed my boobs, and flirted with people. No one cared how much energy I put into the stage show, and the income from killing myself in performance and waking up with sore knees and bruises the next day, was not noticeably higher on shifts where I went all out with entertaining people. I did it while I was still young enough to do it, because I enjoyed it. Giving a really good stage show is a lot of fun. It can be a great job.

Girls get sick of working on tricks, dealing with athletic injuries (yes, strippers get sports injuries, including bursitis in the knees which is VERY common among exotic dancers, as well as joint problems, and pinched nerves), waking up sore and stiff, only to do this day after day after day -- for an audience of 2 or 3 scowling, hyper-critical, elderly men, who may (or may not) give them $3 at the stage.

That's certainly not enough of an income to pay for the chiropractic and massage therapy visits you are likely to need after devoting 3 or 5 years of your life to acrobatics, and pole tricks. It's just not.

I agree with you completely some of those headline acts were so creative and entirely entertaining. It was the art of the dance and art of the strip. It is sad that they have gone the way of the dinosaurs .

Rob Photosby wrote:

Are you trolling or just plain ignorant?

Of course she is not trolling or ignorant, why must your only thought be to deride a persons opinion. She has studied a classic form of dance that requires years of tedious grueling study to master.  You can see why she cringes when people talk about modern day strippers as equals. 
Glad to see some of you have learned nothing from the shit storm that happened a few months ago on this forum.

Sandra Vixen wrote:
Uuuh? I'm sorry if I came across that way.

But seriously, would you include rappers as PhD's?

Seriously, take a dance class, of real technical dance, and then say I'm "elitist".

There are a LOT of dancers and dance teachers that I have come across who are a lot less inclusive than I am.

The bolded part is an irrelevant and ignorant statement. There are formal qualifications to obtain a PhD. There are not formal qualifications to be considered a dancer. In fact, if you went to a dance studio, and saw five year olds in their second month of classes, they would still be considered "dancers." You, with all your years of experience and work are considered a dancer, one that is classicly trained. No, considered other "dancers" to be "dancers" does not take away from that.

I've taken dance classes. I was a gymnast and ended up learning some classic ballet so I could do the shows that included tumbling.

I am not nor have I ever been an exotic dancer. I still think you sounded elitist.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Of course she is not trolling or ignorant, why must your only thought be to deride a persons opinion. She has studied a classic form of dance that requires years of tedious grueling study to master.  You can see why she cringes when people talk about modern day strippers as equals. 
Glad to see some of you have learned nothing from the shit storm that happened a few months ago on this forum.

No one said they were "equals."

They said exotic dancers were dancers. That doesn't mean "equals." It means very little, outside of calling the people who dance for a living "dancers."

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

I love working with classically trained dancers. Most strippers barely dance they walk around trying to get lap dances from patrons. There was a time even in the seventies where clubs had headliners doing wonderful acts much like the Crazy Horse in Paris.  Those almost never exist.

So until that type of dancing comes back I don't consider strippers as dancers.

But the kind of work I like to shoot I seek ballet dancers, yoga practitioners, acrobats and gymnasts, they have body awareness are very creative with athletic poses and have wonderful expression

All the strippers I know still have to do sets. Some may put more work into than others, but it's not like they can just avoid the stage completely.

And this is no insult to gymnasts (which I am), yoga practitioners,  classical dancers or anyone else.

It's simply to say that the dancers who dance for a living are dancers.

K I C K H A M wrote:

All the strippers I know still have to do sets. Some may put more work into than others, but it's not like they can just avoid the stage completely.

And this is no insult to gymnasts (which I am), yoga practitioners,  classical dancers or anyone else.

It's simply to say that the dancers who dance for a living are dancers.

Yes I guess that is painting with a very wide brush.  But if strippers avoid the stage at all cost and then sort of walk from here to there wouldn't they be anti dancers? But maybe in some universe that is dancing also.


BTW.  You have a wonderful portfolio.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Yes I guess that is painting with a very wide brush.  But if strippers avoid the stage at all cost and then sort of walk from here to there wouldn't they be anti dancers? But maybe in some universe that is dancing also.


BTW.  You have a wonderful portfolio.

Maybe some of them are. But to say that "exotic dancers aren't dancers" sounds pretty closed minded to me.

And thank you.

Rob Photosby wrote:
Are you trolling or just plain ignorant?

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Of course she is not trolling or ignorant, why must your only thought be to deride a persons opinion. She has studied a classic form of dance that requires years of tedious grueling study to master. 

You can see why she cringes when people talk about modern day strippers as equals.

You have made a number of baseless assumptions which might have been apparent to you had you considered my earlier post (reproduced below).

Rob Photosby wrote:
I much prefer to work with models who have ballet training (or yoga or gymnastics or similar) because they hold their bodies more elegantly.

However, the situation is not as clear cut with strippers.  Some have been great and some have been very ordinary.

And, just so you know, my avatar is a professional dancer, classically trained with a university degree in fine arts with a double major in dance.

Koryn wrote:

It is a marketing strategy.

That is an interesting thought.

Do you think that the strategy is likely to be successful?

Rob Photosby wrote:
Do you think that the strategy is likely to be successful?

I do, yes.

Sandra Vixen wrote:
Uuuh? I'm sorry if I came across that way.

But seriously, would you include rappers as PhD's?

Seriously, take a dance class, of real technical dance, and then say I'm "elitist".

There are a LOT of dancers and dance teachers that I have come across who are a lot less inclusive than I am.

I have been in dance since childhood. You wouldn't know it by looking at me or my photos.

Obviously, I can't dance ballet pro. In Bellydance, there are always people debating about all the different genres of this type of dance stating: That is isn't bellydance. So I hear where you are coming from.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
I get paid to dance, ergo, I'm a professional dancer.

I've had zero formal training. Come for me.

You hit it on the head, professional means getting paid for it. It doesn't mean good, bad, average or anything else. It means getting paid for it.

That said I have shot with a few dancers over time and have had probably my best shoots with those that are trained dancers. I had one model that just put on music and did her thing and I captured it. It was great. IMHO.

Locutus wrote:
Nice segway into an advert for a model agency

I doubt anyone confused that with a legit agency...

Northern Sights wrote:
You hit it on the head, professional means getting paid for it. It doesn't mean good, bad, average or anything else. It means getting paid for it.

I also happen to be good.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:

I also happen to be good.

Nothing on insta so far

Virtual Studio wrote:
...
You should try looking at some post structuralist theory to see this type thing utterly debunked.
...
Really your post shows that a little learning is indeed a dangerous thing. By restricting "real" to mean "high culture" you create a self referential framework which fails in its analysis of reality.

Academics are usually one  (or more ) step/s behind  contemporary arts.

CHAD ALAN wrote:

Nothing on insta so far

I dance in dark clubs. Hard to get good video. Maybe I'll try next time. There are lotsa stills on my FB.

Sandra Vixen wrote:
Exotic dancing is not dancing.

http://www.pbase.com/rcalmes

My favorite models are exotic dancers that specialize in pole dancing... and they are absolutely INCREDIBLE! They have the same athleticism and flexibility as the so-called "real" dancers. One of my friends in college even did a documentary on pole dancers and it showed that pole dancing is just as athletic and artistic as plain gymnastics.

Vampman Studios wrote:
My favorite models are exotic dancers that specialize in pole dancing... and they are absolutely INCREDIBLE! They have the same athleticism and flexibility as the so-called "real" dancers. One of my friends in college even did a documentary on pole dancers and it showed that pole dancing is just as athletic and artistic as plain gymnastics.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
I've also done a little burlesque, which is just fancy stripping.

No, it's not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlesque

Sandra Vixen wrote:
Exotic dancing is not dancing.

What can I get away with saying to this that won't get me banned?

K I C K H A M wrote:
Most strippers barely dance they walk around trying to get lap dances from patrons.

I'm a stripper and I'd I spend about 70% of each stage spot doing awesome acrobatic stuff, the time on stage that I'm not dancing is spent collecting tips off the patrons. On the odd occasion I'll just stand there and wiggle a bit, but that's only if people aren't tipping. We don't get paid hourly, there's no base rate, no nothing, we rely entirely on tips and lap dances.

Koryn wrote:

That is because customers no longer tip much for stage shows. Twenty years ago, a good exotic dancer, who developed a show with some interesting moves, contortions, or any strong performance aspect, could make $100 on a stage set - or more. Twenty years ago, stages were full, and people tipped tens and twenties.

Now, on any given night at a "hometown" American strip joint, you're lucky to have 5 customers sitting at the stage, and you might take $8-$10 in one dollar bills off each stage set you do. There are days/nights when there are no customers at stages at all, and girls cycle on and off the stage, while three customers sit at the bar for hours on end, with scowls on their faces, drinking beer after beer, and staring at the television. There is no longer the expectation that these people tip dancers, or watch stage shows. It's really pretty sad.

Therefore, the motivation to actually perform for customers becomes lowered. Back a few years ago, I could spend every stage set doing pole work and elaborate tricks with my body that would get applause and cheers - on the rare night you actually managed to have a semi-full stage of viewers. However, I made no more money for putting that level of energy into it, than I did when I just walked around and flashed my boobs, and flirted with people. No one cared how much energy I put into the stage show, and the income from killing myself in performance and waking up with sore knees and bruises the next day, was not noticeably higher on shifts where I went all out with entertaining people. I did it while I was still young enough to do it, because I enjoyed it. Giving a really good stage show is a lot of fun. It can be a great job.

Girls get sick of working on tricks, dealing with athletic injuries (yes, strippers get sports injuries, including bursitis in the knees which is VERY common among exotic dancers, as well as joint problems, and pinched nerves), waking up sore and stiff, only to do this day after day after day -- for an audience of 2 or 3 scowling, hyper-critical, elderly men, who may (or may not) give them $3 at the stage.

That's certainly not enough of an income to pay for the chiropractic and massage therapy visits you are likely to need after devoting 3 or 5 years of your life to acrobatics, and pole tricks. It's just not.

A++++++
Couldn't have said it better.

Sarah Quill wrote:
No, it's not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlesque

Lol, yes, it is. It's stripping, literally. You go on stage with clothes on, and STRIP THEM OFF.

The leading burlesque dancer of Tucson, who I learned from, says it's stripping. Hell, Dita von Teese, who many consider to be the lead burlesque dancer of the COUNTRY says it's stripping.

I'm obviously talking about the dance part of burlesque, not the entire variety show which hardly even exists anymore.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:

Lol, yes, it is. It's stripping, literally. You go on stage with clothes on, and STRIP THEM OFF.

The leading burlesque dancer of Tucson, who I learned from, says it's stripping. Hell, Dita von Teese, who many consider to be the lead burlesque dancer of the COUNTRY says it's stripping.

I'm obviously talking about the dance part of burlesque, not the entire vaudeville show which hardly even exists anymore.

Here in Toronto if you want to work as a stripper you need to get a Burlesque Dancers License. That's what the city calls it - legally.

Virtual Studio wrote:

Here in Toronto if you want to work as a stripper you need to get a Burlesque Dancers License. That's what the city calls it - legally.

I can't tell if you're serious.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
I can't tell if you're serious.

Really - the city makes $350 a year from each of the dancers.

You go to the same place licenses Taxi Drivers, Buskers, and Fast Food Trucks.

It's a pretty nasty money grab - but you need a clean police record to get one so at least it keeps some of the drugs / prostitution out of the clubs.

Personally I'd see it either beefed up (to actually help keep the dancers safer) or abandoned.

http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase … 38074.html