Regal-Photography wrote:
I'm looking to get some strobe lights for studio work, but I'm also looking to do some dance/movement work.
Therefore I believe I will need some strobes with a faster flash duration.
Looking for any advice on the sort of flash duration times, I should look for in the kits available.
Currently I've seen either the Lencarta super fast strobes or the pixapro Storm 400's


Any thoughts appreciated

It turns out that strobes don't provide constant output.  They start strong, and then taper down.  Flash duration is usually measured in a how long it takes for the power level to taper down to 10% of full power.  This is called the "t.1" time.  Some manufactures will quote a shorter "t.5" time.  This is the time it takes for power to taper down to 50% of full power.  t.5 times
are not very useful.

Most studio monolights have a longer t.1 flash duration as you lower power.  This has a lot to do with the power curve flattening out a lower power levels, and a long trailing end to the power curve.


Most on camera flash systems have shorter flash durations at low power.  If you shoot Canon, and their  600EX has enough power for you, then that may be a good solution.   The reason is that these strobes reduce power by cutting off the flash mid arc.  This yields very short flash durations, with a very steep trailing end to the power curve.  These lights at less than full power are a good choice for stopping action.

There are some studio strobes solutions that are good at stopping action.

If you have a large budget, and like pack and head systems, the Profoto Pro-8a uses a pre-ignition technique to produce short flash durations.   The pack alone can cost over $11,000, and then you still need to buy heads.    The Profoto also can pump far more power into a single head than you can get with a monolight.  The heads on a pack and head system tend to weigh less than monolights.  This can be useful if you are placing the lights on a long boom.


Another choice is the Einstein from the Paul C. Buff company.   Some people love the lights, some people hate the lights and/or the guy who owns the company.   

The Einsteins use a technology reminiscent of on-camera flashes, but with the power of a traditional studio strobe.  The Einstein cuts power by interrupting the flash mid-arc.  At less than full power this yields very short flash duration.  You get the motion stopping benefits of on-camera flash, but with the power output of a traditional monolight.  The Einstein costs about the same as a Canon 600EX flash.

I'm sure there are other good choice out there.  These are just the first few that come to mind.  I'm sure others will chime in with other good options.

If you are out of the US, you might want to look at one of the Chinese knock offs of the Einstein.  Look for a light with "IGBT" technology (this is the circuit that can cut off a high powered flash mid-arc).  If you can find a local distributor, that might be a good choice.

I think the key is that you need to pay attention to how much power you need, and find a system that can give you short t.1 flash durations at that power level.

Photos by Lorrin wrote:
If you were in the US.

Einstein by Paul Buff would be a place to start.

Einstein's have a short duration only once you get to 1/3 power or less.  If you want to shoot full power, they aren't the best choice.  Broncolor also tends to have slow duration at full power.  Decide what power you'll need, and duration, then look for a strobe that will give you what you need.  That maybe an Einstein, but also may not.

Regal-Photography wrote:
I'm looking to get some strobe lights for studio work, but I'm also looking to do some dance/movement work.
Therefore I believe I will need some strobes with a faster flash duration.
Looking for any advice on the sort of flash duration times, I should look for in the kits available.
Currently I've seen either the Lencarta super fast strobes or the pixapro Storm 400's


Any thoughts appreciated

Like the Einstein, Both the PIXAPRO STORM 400 and Lencarta SuperFast strobes use IGBT (Insulated-gate Bipolar Transistor) technology.    You will have a hard time finding flash equal or shorter flash durations in a non-IGBT monolight.

I have not used either of these lights, but the specs on the Lencarter 600 suggest it will be better at stopping action.

Keep in mind that these lights work best when at less than full power.  If you need 150Ws of light, you're better off with the 600WS Lencarter at 1/4 power, then the 300Ws Lencarta at 1/2 power.   The lower you can set your light, the better it will be at stopping action.


When looking at a light, you should look at the entire system, not just the flash duration.  Do the lights have a wireless remote, and what sort of functionality does it offer?  Can you run the lights from batteries?  How much do the lights weigh? Etc.   

For most people there is not light that is a perfect for their needs.  The trick is finding a product that's a good fit.

descending chain wrote:
Einstein's have a short duration only once you get to 1/3 power or less.  If you want to shoot full power, they aren't the best choice.  Broncolor also tends to have slow duration at full power.  Decide what power you'll need, and duration, then look for a strobe that will give you what you need.  That maybe an Einstein, but also may not.

t.1 and t.5 measurements are an attempt to use a single number to describe a complex curve.     If the flashes being compared are all based on the same technology, they will have similar power curves so it makes sense to compare t.5 flash durations.  If the flashes being compared have very different curves, then comparing t.5 times isn't really meaningful.


An IGBT flash with a t.5 time of 0.5 milliseconds, might stop action better than a traditional monolight with a shorter t.5 time.

With IGBT technology (Einstein, Pixapro Storm,  Lencarta SuperFast, etc.) you start to see benefits as soon as you start reducing power. 

A traditional monolight is still emitting power (although at least 1 stop down) after it hits the t.5 time.  When it reaches the t.1 time, it's about three stops down, but it can still emit for some time (exposure is based on light over time).

With an IGBT strobe, the light shuts off at the t.5 time (which is also the t.1 time).  Once you hit that mark, there is no additional light contributing to the exposure.    Not only do IGBT lights offer shorter exposure, but the power output curve is tuned for stopping motion.   You don't need to go down to 1/3 power in order to see benefits.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
... I'm distrustful of any specs they publish...

All the IGBT products seem to show very short flash durations.   There is no need to rely on the specifications published by any one brand.

Lencarta seems to claim the shortest flash duration, followed by Einstein, then Pixapro Storm.

With a traditional strobe, the t.5 time is shorter than the t.1 time.  Due to the steep trailing edge of the IGBT power curve, the t.5 and t.1 times tend to be the same for those lights.  It's natural for companies like Lencarta and Pixapro to push t.1 times as these numbers serve to highlight the IGBT difference.

As the OP is in the UK, Lencarta or Pixapro may make more sense then Einstein. 

The independent testing in the fstoppers.com article (linked above) seems to confirm the PCB claims.  Do you have any reason to doubt the Lencarta or Pixapro claims?

Michael Fryd wrote:
With an IGBT strobe, the light shuts off at the t.5 time (which is also the t.1 time).  Once you hit that mark, there is no additional light contributing to the exposure.    Not only do IGBT lights offer shorter exposure, but the power output curve is tuned for stopping motion.   You don't need to go down to 1/3 power in order to see benefits.

Kind of what I thought.

Which is why they have a selection between colour consistency and action stopping.
The colour will change as you change power if you are in action mode. And if you have 5 lights at different power levels then you are likely to have lights with 5 different colour temps. I have never had a problem with the slight differences when I have needed action lighting. But it is nice that you can choose between colour accuracy and stopping action.

Also from a couple of years back.

http://www.photigy.com/studio-strobes-t … broncolor/

Best bang for the buck.
Einstein

Best quality in Europe
Broncolor

And now there are others that I have never heard of, which may be, and should be a factor. Longevity etc. But if you can get in and get what you want at a good enough price, then it might be worth the risk.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Kind of what I thought.

Which is why they have a selection between colour consistency and action stopping.
The colour will change as you change power if you are in action mode. And if you have 5 lights at different power levels then you are likely to have lights with 5 different colour temps. I have never had a problem with the slight differences when I have needed action lighting. But it is nice that you can choose between colour accuracy and stopping action.

The color temp varies during the flash.  The color temp at the beginning of the arc may be quite different than the color temp at the trailing edge of the power curve.  What we think of as the flash's color temp, is actually a weighted average across the entire flash duration.

A traditional monolight varies power by reducing the voltage stored in the capacitors.  The lower voltage results in a color temperature shift.  This is why most monolights exhibit a color shift of a few hundred degrees between full and minimum power.

An IGBT light cuts off the trailing end of the power curve.  As the trailing end was at a different color temp, this results in a small shift in the weighted average.

The Einstein offers "constant color" mode where it reduces the voltage just a bit.  This requires a slightly longer flash duration, but the small shift from the lower voltage offsets the shift from losing the trailing edge of the curve.   In this mode you get consistent color across the entire power range.

In Action Mode, the capacitor is always fully charged.  This results in the shortest flash duration, but the color temp shifts slightly as you cut off the tail of the power curve..

I don't know which strategy, the other IGBT brands use.

Michael Fryd wrote:
t.1 and t.5 measurements are an attempt to use a single number to describe a complex curve.     If the flashes being compared are all based on the same technology, they will have similar power curves so it makes sense to compare t.5 flash durations.  If the flashes being compared have very different curves, then comparing t.5 times isn't really meaningful.


An IGBT flash with a t.5 time of 0.5 milliseconds, might stop action better than a traditional monolight with a shorter t.5 time.

With IGBT technology (Einstein, Pixapro Storm,  Lencarta SuperFast, etc.) you start to see benefits as soon as you start reducing power. 

A traditional monolight is still emitting power (although at least 1 stop down) after it hits the t.5 time.  When it reaches the t.1 time, it's about three stops down, but it can still emit for some time (exposure is based on light over time).

With an IGBT strobe, the light shuts off at the t.5 time (which is also the t.1 time).  Once you hit that mark, there is no additional light contributing to the exposure.    Not only do IGBT lights offer shorter exposure, but the power output curve is tuned for stopping motion.   You don't need to go down to 1/3 power in order to see benefits.

Even if the Einstein's t.1 duration were in fact a t.0 time, which it is not, its 1/540 s duration would not be considered motion-stopping.  You could possibly make a case for half-power's 1/1700 s.  But remember, the Einstein has less power at full power than most strobes have at 1/4.  The Broncolor Scoro, with 3200 Joules, is equivalent at 1/5 power.

descending chain wrote:

Even if the Einstein's t.1 duration were in fact a t.0 time, which it is not, its 1/540 s duration would not be considered motion-stopping.  You could possibly make a case for half-power's 1/1700 s.  But remember, the Einstein has less power at full power than most strobes have at 1/4.  The Broncolor Scoro, with 3200 Joules, is equivalent at 1/6 power.

The Broncolor Scoro pack and head system looks to be an excellent choice for stopping action.  Compared to the IGBT monolights we've mentioned, the Broncolor Scoro is significantly more expensive and capable of much higher power levels.

For some people the price won't be a problem.  For some people, it will be hard to justify the price of the Broncolor Scoro if the lower cost IGBT monolight meets their need.

Michael Fryd wrote:

The Broncolor Scoro pack and head system looks to be an excellent choice for stopping action.  Compared to the IGBT monolights we've mentioned, the Broncolor Scoro is significantly more expensive and capable of much higher power levels.

For some people the price won't be a problem.  For some people, it will be hard to justify the price of the Broncolor Scoro if the lower cost IGBT monolight meets their need.

If price and IGBT are all you want, why not go with speedlights?  The Einstein may be exactly what the OP needs, and it may not be.

Michael Fryd wrote:
All the IGBT products seem to show very short flash durations.   There is no need to rely on the specifications published by any one brand.

Lencarta seems to claim the shortest flash duration, followed by Einstein, then Pixapro Storm.

With a traditional strobe, the t.5 time is shorter than the t.1 time.  Due to the steep trailing edge of the IGBT power curve, the t.5 and t.1 times tend to be the same for those lights.  It's natural for companies like Lencarta and Pixapro to push t.1 times as these numbers serve to highlight the IGBT difference.

As the OP is in the UK, Lencarta or Pixapro may make more sense then Einstein. 

The independent testing in the fstoppers.com article (linked above) seems to confirm the PCB claims.  Do you have any reason to doubt the Lencarta or Pixapro claims?

I have never heard of either Lencarta nor Pixapro, so I have no basis to believe or disbelieve their claims.

descending chain wrote:
If price and IGBT are all you want, why not go with speedlights?  The Einstein may be exactly what the OP needs, and it may not be.

Absolutely correct.  As I mentioned in my first post, speedlights are something that should be considered.

If you don't need a lot of power, speedlights fit the bill.

If you need the power level typical to monolights, then an IGBT solution should be considered.

If you need a lot of power, and have the budget, then a pack and head system (like the Broncolor Scoro or the Profoto 8a) are excellent choices.




For some people there is a big difference between speedlights and monolights.   Speedlights are typically very portable, battery operated, and can integrate with the camera's automatic metering system.  Speedlights are not designed with modifiers in mind, but there are solutions for using various modifiers.


Monolights can be plugged into the wall.  You can shoot all day without changing batteries.  Monolights tend to be less portable than speedlights (but more portable than a pack and head system).  Monolights tend to have more power than speedlights (but less than a pack and head).   Like a pack and head system, monolights are designed to work with a wide selection of modifiers.

Although you can get monolights and speedlights that integrate into a camera's automated exposure system, most people will manually select power for their monolights.

Some photographers like working with speedlights, some prefer monolights, some prefer pack and heads, and some insist on continuous lighting.   One should also consider the photographer's personal preferences.

Obviously, the best solution for any particular photographer will depend on his specific needs.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

I have never heard of either Lencarta nor Pixapro, so I have no basis to believe or disbelieve their claims.

Independent testing confirmed PCB's claims.  The claims from the other brands are in the same ballpark.  It looks like all the claims are reliable.

Michael Fryd wrote:

Independent testing confirmed PCB's claims.  The claims from the other brands are in the same ballpark.  It looks like all the claims are reliable.

Exactly what "independent testing" has confirmed PCB's claims?

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
Exactly what "independent testing" has confirmed PCB's claims?

As was linked before https://fstoppers.com/strobe-light/whic … stein-5026

Their conclusion was the the Profoto Pro-8 Air or the Broncolor Scoro A4S offer much more power than the Einstein, the Einstein was actually better at stopping action. 

Another test is at http://www.robgalbraith.com/multi_pageb … 0053-10715


But let's not turn this into a Paul Buff bashing thread.   There are lots of choices for the OP, and many of them have better availability in the UK than Buff's products.

The clear message from these tests is that the IGBT control of flash duration is a good choice if you want to stop action.

Feverstockphoto wrote:
Don't know if these are any good. http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= … mp;_sop=15

Edited: Scroll down a bit.

Outwardly identical apart from the name.

photoimager wrote:
The Lencarta set mentioned are fast and are available elsewhere in the world under a different badge .

^ Oh right, missed that. Price seems quite a bit different though.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I have some really old Speedtron Brown Line strobes, and their flash duration is (I think) 1/3000th of a second -- that was plenty fast to freeze dancer's motion.  Indeed, I would think that even 1/1000th of a second would be plenty fast.

Closer to 1/300th at full power, if not slower. Both Brownline and Blackline are typically long-duration flashes. Even the two-cable quad-tubes aren't all that short, though they're much better (1/5000th at 300 joules).

1/1000th is enough to stop the body movement; it takes a much shorter duration to freeze the fingers and toes.

Kevin Connery wrote:

Closer to 1/300th at full power, if not slower. Both Brownline and Blackline are typically long-duration flashes. Even the two-cable quad-tubes aren't all that short, though they're much better (1/5000th at 300 joules).

1/1000th is enough to stop the body movement; it takes a much shorter duration to freeze the fingers and toes.

1/5000 is pretty quick.

Regal-Photography wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback. I will look into a few of the recommendations, although as mentioned the Einsteins are not an option as I'm uk based. I've read quite a few poor reports of customer support for these if bought in the uk.

What your budget ? is the big question
Does Broncolor get sold in UK ?

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

What your budget ? is the big question
Does Broncolor get sold in UK ?

Dealers
HASSELBLAD UK LTD
385 Centennial Avenue
Centennial Park
Elstree
Herts, WD6 3TJ
Phone +44 20 8731 3250
Fax +44 20 8731 3251
[email protected]
http://www.ukbroncolor.com


    AJ's Studio & Camera Supplies
Unit 7, Old Mill Business Park
Station Road
Bruton
Somerset, BA10 0EH
Phone +44 1749 813 044
[email protected]
http://www.aj-s.co.uk


Commercial Cameras
7 High Street
Church Stretton
Shropshire, SY6 6BU
Phone +44 1694 722 202
[email protected]
http://www.commercialcameras.co.uk


Peartree
Unit 27
Cremer Business Centre
37 Cremer Street
London, E2 8HD
Phone +44 20 7033 7371
Fax +44 20 7613 2660
[email protected]
http://www.peartreerental.com


Pro Centre
14 Union Walk
London, E2 8HP
Phone +44 20 7490 3122
Fax +44 20 7490 1292
[email protected]
http://www.procentre.co.uk

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I have some really old Speedtron Brown Line strobes, and their flash duration is (I think) 1/3000th of a second -- that was plenty fast to freeze dancer's motion.  Indeed, I would think that even 1/1000th of a second would be plenty fast.

Sometimes, I went in the opposite direction and made exposures of 90 seconds or more:



And sometimes, I'd use the 90 second exposure while firing off strobes in the middle of the exposure:



(I also had them hold flashlights while they were moving -- if you do that, give them a flashlight for each hand, so that their balance is maintained).

I understand the desire to freeze motion -- I'm just encouraging you to experiment in the opposite directions, too.  Dancers like to dance -- let them move freely.

Tried some of those, did not like my results.

Can I steal these and post as my own? Saves a lot of effort. 

Tried 10sec with hand firing the flash in the middle.
Interesting how you can technically think and plan something out, but in the real world it does not cooperate.

Kevin Connery wrote:

Closer to 1/300th at full power, if not slower. Both Brownline and Blackline are typically long-duration flashes. Even the two-cable quad-tubes aren't all that short, though they're much better (1/5000th at 300 joules).

1/1000th is enough to stop the body movement; it takes a much shorter duration to freeze the fingers and toes.

Yep.
Used a friends Profoto's and the hands and feet would have that tell-tail ghosting.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I have some really old Speedtron Brown Line strobes, and their flash duration is (I think) 1/3000th of a second -- that was plenty fast to freeze dancer's motion.  Indeed, I would think that even 1/1000th of a second would be plenty fast.

Sometimes, I went in the opposite direction and made exposures of 90 seconds or more:



And sometimes, I'd use the 90 second exposure while firing off strobes in the middle of the exposure:



(I also had them hold flashlights while they were moving -- if you do that, give them a flashlight for each hand, so that their balance is maintained).

I understand the desire to freeze motion -- I'm just encouraging you to experiment in the opposite directions, too.  Dancers like to dance -- let them move freely.

Brian Hillburn wrote:

Fabu;ous work!