Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

Where are you getting no human contact ?
Staff, friends, family all avail if so desired
Isolated away from rest of the world if so wanted

I know a few musicians that do nothing but play, are anti-social, etc. (no human contact).
We choose to walk out of our own doors at will.

I believe if transgender is purely within the brain and how it's wired, then yes, Caitlyn would need to be Caitlyn if alone on a deserted island with no human contact.

LA StarShooter wrote:
I am so glad on occasion that I read the economist, which allows me to avoid uninteresting news. I read about Caitelyn on yahoo and the fuss was like a sedative, and I did not think I was reading about the fall of Rome or that it was a sign of the Beast or the apocalypse, although it could be called something of a Revelation. I thought the media fuss was amazing as a number of prominent people have transitioned before. Here's a list for normal good people who want to blame people cursed with Gender Misidentity for the corruption and decline of society. One was Renee Richards, tennis player, who played at Wimbledom. The lawns were never the same after that. Never as green, all the leaves wilting in remembrance and the balls on the court were less bouncy. Even on the men's courts.  Now for that list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_people

I have met men who transitioned to womanhood. It is a hard road for them as people often call the male-to-female "it," and "that guy in a dress." Because of mixed signals: a deep voice, sometimes combined with a very assertive style of speaking, in feminine garb, people can be uncomfortable. However, uncomfortable, is there really a need to mock them out of their houses, as the suicide rate is high for such people? The coverage of Jenner was pretty normal. How hot was she. The Daily Show take was done well.  As for the photos a good job was done. I could see the lines of a 65 year-old human who had had too much sun. The physique of an Olympic athlete still radiated through the feminine look. Even though surgery was done to the face and the androgen blockers are being taken, and the daily dosage is underway, the voice clashes with the look, which is not unusual. Back to the photo. She wanted to look sexy and glamorous. A lot of women do. She has women advising her and influencing her when it comes to clothes and makeup. The photos did the job.

Here's the dosing routine for famous and non-famous male-to-female transsexuals gathered from a website:  Sublingual (dissolve oral formulation under the tongue) 1-4mg estradiol/day (single or divided dose), 100-200mcg transdermal estradiol/day, 10-20mg estradiol valerate IM every 1-2 weeks (injections continue for no more than 2 years, then change to lower dosage). (Grade C)

Oh, sorry, there's more: Over 35/smokers: Oral estrogens confer an increased risk of thromboembolic disease. (Grade B)
After gonadectomy: Lower doses are recommended: 50-100mcg transdermal, 1-2mg sublingual estradiol, 1-2 sprays/day Evamist®. Titrate to effect, considering patient tolerance. (Grade C)
Progesterone: The risks and benefits of progesterone are not well-characterized. Some providers have found it to have positive effects on the nipple areola and libido. Mood effects may be positive or negative. Different progesterone regimens include daily 5 to 10mg medroxyprogesterone orally, 100-200mg prometrium at bedtime of oral or compounded micronized progesterone, or Depo-Provera 150mg IM every 3 months, for 2-3 years. There is a risk of significant weight gain and depression in some individuals.

As per other studies using oral progesterone in post-menopausal women (e.g., the Women's Health Initiative [WHI] study), the use of medroxyprogesterone orally may increase the risk of coronary vascular disease whereas IM injections (i.e., Depo-Provera) may minimize this additional risk. (Grade B and C)
Anti-androgens: Initial dose of spironolactone is 100mg daily in a single or divided dose, with titration up by 50mg weekly to a typical dose of 200mg daily (with occasional patients -- especially larger or younger -- requiring as much as 400mg daily. Dose may be divided bid or may be taken all at once in the A.M. (all at once in A.M. is advised against due to diuretic effects interrupting sleep). Check potassium. Progesterone may have some anti-androgenic activity, and may be an alternative if spironolactone is contraindicated.

If patients have significant hair loss issues, finasteride may be added as an adjunct (even initially). Generally 1 - 5mg daily. If patients pay out of pocket, they may buy the 5mg tabs and divide them in half or quarters.

Yes, Jenner obviously did this to win a gold medal in the court of media opinion because it is just so easy to transition, which only takes years. It couldn't be more possible that Jenner had always identified as a female. No. The earth is six thousand years old, evolution is a lie, science is a fairy tale written by queens, and the enlightened position is to torment someone different because war is inevitable and hatred will always be with us and so will the murder of gays, the pink triangle of concentration camps wasn't just a one-time oops. And the "others" should always hide themselves and conform to the wishes of the easily shocked. Always. They should have better manners and thank their oppressors everyday for even thinking of them.

Oh, it costs a lot of money. A lot to transition and so if someone manages to milk some money from the media cow, why have a cow over it, when you could just start your youtube channel and voice your unbigoted opinions about how Jenner is really a guy and should be called Bruce, because you said so, and you her God?

This is a good read, esp. the second to last paragraph.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
That is wonderful that you are so opinionated about someone or something that will never effect you.   I'm sure that Jenner and the Kardashians have absolutely no opinion of you what so ever.  You don't matter to them, so why do you even care?   heck!   I don't matter to them either!    I prefer to not be so opinionated towards people I know little or nothing about.  Have a great day! 

When someone puts themselves out there for the public to view, that person is subject to both the praise of some and ridicule of others. 

Some argue that because Jenner is famous, there is no way Jenner could have done this in private.  Let's look at that for a moment.  Jenner won the gold medal in 1976.  There were 34 gold medals won by US athletes at the 1976 Olympics.  How many of those can you name and tell me what they are doing now, without looking it up?  Jenner is famous because of his participation in the Kardashians TV show, a show that was popular because of the questionable and sexual antics of the Kardashians.  So Jenner is in the media spotlight now mostly because of the Kardashians, not so much because Jenner won a gold medal almost 40 years ago.  It is the reason Jenner is currently because of his attention seeking along with the rest of the Kardashians.  Jenner put Jenner out there, so Jenner is subject to the ridicule.

ernst tischler wrote:
When someone puts themselves out there for the public to view, that person is subject to both the praise of some and ridicule of others. 

Some argue that because Jenner is famous, there is no way Jenner could have done this in private.  Let's look at that for a moment.  Jenner won the gold medal in 1976.  There were 34 gold medals won by US athletes at the 1976 Olympics.  How many of those can you name and tell me what they are doing now, without looking it up?  Jenner is famous because of his participation in the Kardashians TV show, a show that was popular because of the questionable and sexual antics of the Kardashians.  So Jenner is in the media spotlight now mostly because of the Kardashians, not so much because Jenner won a gold medal almost 40 years ago.  It is the reason Jenner is currently because of his attention seeking along with the rest of the Kardashians.  Jenner put Jenner out there, so Jenner is subject to the ridicule.

All good points to consider.
Ahhh media



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Gf0hoTIXA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmObvuOMYA - @1:41 Clay Matthews

Jules NYC wrote:

This is a good read, esp. the second to last paragraph.

Ta, very much.

kickfight wrote:
I can't imagine how someone would allow themselves to be manipulated into getting all neurotic over a complete stranger's decisions/choices.

I don't think anyone's getting "all neurotic" about Jenner's choices, but people are getting upset at being accused of "hate speech" and being "transphobic" and all that when they express their opinions as to whether they think it's all that heroic or groundbreaking.

kickfight wrote:
I can't imagine how someone would allow themselves to be manipulated into getting all neurotic over a complete stranger's decisions/choices.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
I don't think anyone's getting "all neurotic" about Jenner's choices

So noted. Nonetheless, as I read through the thread, some of the comments here indicate that some are getting all neurotic about Jenner's choices.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
but people are getting upset at being accused of "hate speech" and being "transphobic" and all that when they express their opinions as to whether they think it's all that heroic or groundbreaking.

Just as I would expect people not to get too terribly upset over my observation about getting all neurotic over Jenner's choices, I would also expect people not to get too terribly upset over those "accusations". Some perspective on the whole matter is probably a good idea.

kickfight wrote:
Just as I would expect people not to get too terribly upset over my observation about getting all neurotic over Jenner's choices, I would also expect people not to get too terribly upset over those "accusations". Some perspective on the whole matter is probably a good idea.

By the same token, I would expect people to not get upset over people getting upset over someone getting upset... or something like that. It's a little upsetting that these days people get upset over everything... and then people get upset that people are upset and others get upset that people aren't upset... and the whole conversation turns into a Monty Python skit.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
By the same token, I would expect people to not get upset over people getting upset over someone getting upset... or something like that. It's a little upsetting that these days people get upset over everything... and then people get upset that people are upset and others get upset that people aren't upset... and the whole conversation turns into a Monty Python skit.

Don't see a problem with that outcome. Everything, taken to its logical conclusion, ends in absurdity (or perhaps simply reveals the underlying absurdity at the core of everything).

Click Hamilton wrote:
I'm also sick and tired of all the exaggerated drama and transgender hype being shoved in our collective face 24/7. How long is this story going to keep dragging on, and on, and on? 

I really wish the media would spend more time on things that are useful or important instead of making it into propaganda or a circus act.

This story has become so ridiculously over-saturated. Even if he wants to be some kind of female glamor model in Vanity Fair, I'm still not interested. I wish these clowns who manufacture new$ would get out of my face and respect my own privacy a little. Whether he shaves his butt or not is not interesting to me.

Has he stripped for a Terry Richardson photo set yet?

I'm sorry, but BFD. I just don't care.

This is on par and as painful as reading stories about Miley Cyrus twerking and sticking her tongue out, or about the size of Kim Kardashian's butt.

I completely agree with you!!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I completely agree with you!!

Thank you, Sir!

That's kind of you to say

kickfight wrote:
So noted. Nonetheless, as I read through the thread, some of the comments here indicate that some are getting all neurotic about Jenner's choices.

Just as I would expect people not to get too terribly upset over my observation about getting all neurotic over Jenner's choices, I would also expect people not to get too terribly upset over those "accusations". Some perspective on the whole matter is probably a good idea.

I agree with you. I'm absolutely sure that Jenner's life and sexual transition does NOT effect any one of us at all. Many of the comments about Jenner are negative, angry and hateful.  Why do some people take this person's life so personally?  If I am wrong about this, then someone please respond as to why Jenner's transition effects you personally? How does it harm you?

For those of you complaining that the media is shoving "transgender lifestyle" "gay lifestyle" or perhaps the lifestyles of women, blacks and other minorities in your face ... IF the general public were not so offended, then it would not be news worthy at all.  It wasn't that long ago that blacks and whites could not marry in many States.  I believe that gay marriage will become legal soon. I'm friends with gays, and transgenders.  There are some people who want to kill them just because of who they are.  One transgender who I photographed many times, had started her transition at a much younger age than Jenner.  She seems 100% female to me and others.  That might be the advantage of starting transitioning as a teenager ... if you survive.  Locally a transitioning teen was murdered for simply being who she was. 

I'm sure that there are many angry people out there who are so offended by the thought that transsexuals exist that they would kill Jenner if they had the opportunity.   heck!  The President gets threats to his life all the time!   So why not?  Then to think that there are allegedly many thousands of transsexuals in our military, it's no wonder they hesitate to "come out!"

When it comes to human beings, I look past the skin color, sexual orientation, and any physical stuff that might mean that one is unique.  Physical issues like what some people are born with, or what changes occur due to accidents and disease are not made by choice.  I completely believe that sexual preference is not a choice either.  It is something that one might suppress for years, but it is a truth denied because of fear.   

What is a choice is what one believes in regards to religion and politics.  I am very accepting of others religious and political affiliations.  I am not offended when someone has a differing opinion.  What should I be? 

Those who are angry about the publicity that Catilyn Jenner is getting should consider themselves a part of the reason that this "story" is so news worthy.  If you are angry, be angry at the media sources that cover such subjects, NOT at Jenner.  NOW can we get back to talking about what an awesome photographer Annie Leibovitz is?  I think she did a fine set of portraits of Caitlyn Jenner.

Click Hamilton wrote:
I'm also sick and tired of all the exaggerated drama and transgender hype being shoved in our collective face 24/7. How long is this story going to keep dragging on, and on, and on? 

I really wish the media would spend more time on things that are useful or important instead of making it into propaganda or a circus act.

This story has become so ridiculously over-saturated. Even if he wants to be some kind of female glamor model in Vanity Fair, I'm still not interested. I wish these clowns who manufacture new$ would get out of my face and respect my own privacy a little. Whether he shaves his butt or not is not interesting to me.

Has he stripped for a Terry Richardson photo set yet?

I'm sorry, but BFD. I just don't care.

This is on par and as painful as reading stories about Miley Cyrus twerking and sticking her tongue out, or about the size of Kim Kardashian's butt.

r T p wrote:
rage.. rage against la máquina de propaganda,

señora Hamilton

I do not speak Spanish. If there is some literary or cultural nuance of this beyond "propaganda machine," it is beyond my non-Spanish speaking comprehension. I depend on Kickfight for explaining the connotations and subtleties of Spanish translations to me in context.

r T p wrote:
no one should be forcing us to read stories about

Jenner's Vanity aFair nor MC's twerks nor KK's ass

Although it rains down upon us like a carpet bombing campaign, I try to avoid them as much as possible.

Ditto for the "news" and TV/Radio in general.

I cancelled my TV cable service last year and got an Apple TV. It's quite refreshing to avoid being pummeled by so many ads and so much inane "news" story hype.

Click Hamilton wrote:
Although it rains down upon us like a carpet bombing campaign, I try to avoid them as much as possible.

Ditto for the "news" and TV/Radio in general.

I cancelled my TV cable service last year and got an Apple TV. It's quite refreshing to avoid being pummeled by so many ads and so much inane "news" story hype.

señora Hamilton,

you're a bacon of hope for all others...

who are forced to read stories about

Jenner's Vanity aFair, MC's twerks & KK's ass

r T p wrote:
...  no one should be forcing us to read stories about ...

That is a fact that one is forcing any of us to read any thing nor to participate in this forum either.  Freedom of speech, you'all!  No more book burnings! 

ernst tischler wrote:
Jenner won the gold medal in 1976.  There were 34 gold medals won by US athletes at the 1976 Olympics.  How many of those can you name and tell me what they are doing now, without looking it up?  Jenner is famous because of his participation in the Kardashians TV show

I think it depends on how old you are.

I never paid that much attention to the Olympics, but there are some names that stand out even to me: Bruce Jenner, Mark Spitz, Nadia Comaneci would be some.

I think I got Bruce Jenner drilled into my head from Wheaties commercials.

r T p wrote:

señora Hamilton,

you're a bacon of hope for all others...

who are forced to read stories about

Jenner's Vanity aFair, MC's twerks & KK's ass

Did someone say BACON?!

LA StarShooter wrote:
Yes, Jenner obviously did this to win a gold medal in the court of media opinion because it is just so easy to transition, which only takes years. It couldn't be more possible that Jenner had always identified as a female. No. The earth is six thousand years old, evolution is a lie, science is a fairy tale written by queens, and the enlightened position is to torment someone different because war is inevitable and hatred will always be with us and so will the murder of gays, the pink triangle of concentration camps wasn't just a one-time oops. And the "others" should always hide themselves and conform to the wishes of the easily shocked. Always. They should have better manners and thank their oppressors everyday for even thinking of them.
(snipped only to reduce the space that quoting this will take)

You brought up some good points and provided some interesting information. Transitioning is a hard path to take with both pros and cons and, realistically, is not for everyone. I am transgendered and my experience is, the effects of hormone replacement therapy alone deter most people who are not 100% sure about transitioning from trying and staying on it because hormone replacement therapy results in dramatic changes to a lot of things, including the penis. Simply put, the hormonal changes will usually either feel right or they could feel very wrong, very quickly (or so I would imagine and have heard). There are exceptions to everything, but I'll leave it at that because this thread has a different topic.

Re: Jenner - my main thought on Jenner is that I don't see Jenner as a solid role model or representative of TG/TS women in most ways that would matter to the transgender women I am friends with and yet the media is making it seem as if Jenner is one. I see a problem there because it shows that someone who lived with certain privileges many of us don't have and was in the public eye for many decades can be heralded as a role model and a groundbreaking heroine simply by deciding to transition. For some folks I know, they are underwhelmed or frustrated by Jenner for that very reason and would understand why some posters here see Caitlin Jenner as having little to no credibility because of Jenner's association with the Kardashians. However, I am not surprised by how the media is handling things.

Re: the Vanity Fair cover - I thought Jenner looks relatively good at this point in their transition, especially for someone starting at an age over 60, and the cover was well-done. Good for her. The choice of pose is more flattering than some others I can think of for Jenner's build and age and seems like a smart choice.

*edited to elaborate on one point.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
I think it depends on how old you are.

I never paid that much attention to the Olympics, but there are some names that stand out even to me: Bruce Jenner, Mark Spitz, Nadia Comaneci would be some.

I think I got Bruce Jenner drilled into my head from Wheaties commercials.

I would agree. My friend who is 43 also recalls the Wheaties commercials and mentioned them just the other day. I don't think he knew who the Kardashians were, but he remembered Jenner in those commercials.

I'm all out of bacon, but I have lots of