Lightcraft Studio wrote:
There are dozens of posts in those threads where if the exact same sentences had been uttered, except substituting "Muhammad" or "Gay People" for "Jesus" or "Christians" then there would be WWIII and people would be getting brigged quicker than you can say "Obama is.....".

Double standards live on here in MM land, as usual.

How would you know?

Why were you even in the marriage equality celebration thread?

The Grey Forest wrote:
Actually that statement about Reagan was more on spot-on that you know, its a string of government psychosis and historical events that have already tipped the scales to a degree that will forever effect the modern world.

I'd argue that the start for the USA dates back to Abraham Lincoln (excessive debt, fiat currency) and in terms of worldwide banking/currency, it dates back to late 19th and early 20th century (the USA being on the tail end of the trend with the adoption of the income tax and establishment of the Federal Reserve in 1913). Other major contributors to the trend, well before Reagan, were the administrations of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Lyndon Baines Johnson and Richard Nixon (although every administration from Hoover on is a contributor).

Purely history, not politics (note that I have listed two Republicans and three Democrats as having contributed massively to this problem). It isn't anything anywhere close to as new as people would make it sound like. We've been working in this direction for 100 years.

Al Lock Photography wrote:

I'd argue that the start for the USA dates back to Abraham Lincoln (excessive debt, fiat currency) and in terms of worldwide banking/currency, it dates back to late 19th and early 20th century (the USA being on the tail end of the trend with the adoption of the income tax and establishment of the Federal Reserve in 1913). Other major contributors to the trend, well before Reagan, were the administrations of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Lyndon Baines Johnson and Richard Nixon (although every administration from Hoover on is a contributor).

Purely history, not politics (note that I have listed two Republicans and three Democrats as having contributed massively to this problem). It isn't anything anywhere close to as new as people would make it sound like. We've been working in this direction for 100 years.

Debt financing in the US began with funding the revolutionary war.  The idea of promising more than can be afforded by politicians dates back to Roman times.  Promises get you elected.   Many consider Woodrow Wilson to basically be the father of the modern progressive ideology in the US which provided the foundation for the bloated entitlement system we have today.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
FWIW -- Puerto Rico is close to defaulting on their loans, too.

Let's say you have a mortgage on your home, and you miss a payment.  You talk with your bank & work out a solution to pay off what you owe.  But you miss that payment, too.  What should happen to you?  To your home?  That's pretty much what is happening to Greece, Puerto Rico, and other countries.

Many countries, including the US, borrow money for their pet projects, like the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan.  Borrowing money is 'way easier than raising revenue (i.e. raising taxes).  Nowadays, the amount of money we spend on paying interest alone is staggering.

Personally, like Benjamin Franklin, I believe that debt is slavery (and savings are freedom).  I tend to avoid borrowing money, and when I do, I prefer to borrow money on things that I expect to increase in value.  So, getting a mortgage for a property in a good location is acceptable.  Getting a car loan for a car is (to me) stupid.

So, in my opinion, Greece is the first.  This can be very, very, very bad.

I agree with you. I have paid for everything I own in cash, including my bachelor's degree ( which was no small feat). As a result, it's pretty fair to say that I've never bought anything I couldn't afford. This was how I was raised, and if I had kids, I'd teach them the same abstemious lifestyle regarding debt. Yet, it's had some pretty rough downsides in my life. I'm almost 33 with no credit history, and am unable to qualify for even the type of credit card that you pay money for using (the type where you pay $200 of your own money, and then get a card with a $200 limit).

I've even had problems with things like renting cars, because while I had the money and the hold fees in my account, they wouldn't rent without a credit card.

Can't get credit if no one will give you a card - which doesn't make sense for someone who has no debt at all and therefore clearly knows how to make reasonable decisions.

At the same time, I know someone who declared bankruptcy, and within a year he was able to get cards again and start "rebuilding" credit. This makes no sense to me, because he should be the one whose past history of excess debt should indicate something negative to creditors. Yet, you have no debt and getting a $200-300 limit card for emergencies, and to start building some credit, is nearly impossible.

Koryn wrote:

I agree with you. I have paid for everything I own in cash, including my bachelor's degree ( which was no small feat). As a result, it's pretty fair to say that I've never bought anything I couldn't afford. This was how I was raised, and if I had kids, I'd teach them the same abstemious lifestyle regarding debt. Yet, it's had some pretty rough downsides in my life. I'm almost 33 with no credit history, and am unable to qualify for even the type of credit card that you pay money for using (the type where you pay $200 of your own money, and then get a card with a $200 limit).

I've even had problems with things like renting cars, because while I had the money and the hold fees in my account, they wouldn't rent without a credit card.

Can't get credit if no one will give you a card - which doesn't make sense for someone who has no debt at all and therefore clearly knows how to make reasonable decisions.

At the same time, I know someone who declared bankruptcy, and within a year he was able to get cards again and start "rebuilding" credit. This makes no sense to me, because he should be the one whose past history of excess debt should indicate something negative to creditors. Yet, you have no debt and getting a $200-300 limit card for emergencies, and to start building some credit, is nearly impossible.

Your friend who declared bankruptcy cannot declare bankruptcy again for several years. The credit company that issues the card can garnish his wages until the debt is paid and there is no simple escape route from this. That is why they issued credit, their risk is very low for the time being.

Try charging a couple of small items at a local department store. Most of them will have simple credit plans for people wanting to create a credit history. Make 2-3 payments on 2-3 transactions and then you will be eligible for a higher limit and a "real" credit card. As you have seen, it can come in handy for renting cars (and booking hotels).
My sister pays for everything with a credit card and pays the bill in full every month. This accrues airline "miles" (more like yards!!!) and she can fly for "free" every now and then. It also gives her a stellar credit rating, making things like purchasing a home much simpler.

C h a r l e s  D wrote:
How is Greece's 1.5 Billion in debt even a problem when we throw around $800 Billion (twice!) after 2008 to aid recovery?

It's gotta be worse than just 1.5 billion, right?

Greece's National Debt in U.S. dollars: $380 Billion.

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece

And that's with a population that's roughly 3% the size of the U.S.

Sort of puts things in perspective, doesn't it.

LightDreams wrote:
Greece's National Debt in U.S. dollars: $380 Billion.

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece

And that's with a population that's roughly 3% the size of the U.S.

Sort of puts things in perspective, doesn't it.

Not out of line with everyone else.

Ontario’s debt continues to climb, but investors will still buy it
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o … e24075688/
              $284-billion


Government debt threatens to send U.S. economy into death spiral, CBO warns
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 … /?page=all
"Getting back to the level of debt of most of the past five decades would mean a $1,700 annual tax increase per middle-class household."


http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/20 … ue-us.html
" if you take the value of all of those commitments and subtract all the taxes coming to pay those commitments, the difference is what’s called the fiscal gap; and that fiscal gap in the U.S. is now $205 trillion"

Next up  (July 26)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ … y-ibbnk177
http://rt.com/business/271588-ukraine-debt-gdp-report/




Greek No vote wins referendum with over 61% of votes   
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0705/712733-greece/


Greek banks prepare plan to raid deposits to avert collapse
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9963b74c … 9cf79.html
     (you are not a customer or depositor any more --- you are an investor)

Jay Dezelic wrote:
It seems the fundamental problem with Greece and many other socialist countries (including the US) is that not enough people are actually involved with producing real wealth anymore.

Tax the real wealth.

For a change.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

Tax the real wealth.

For a change.

Better to eliminate monopolies through antitrust and decrease regulatory barriers so that average people can get back to work.

Chris Rifkin wrote:
I have seen go fund me sites and crowd funding sites all over facebook today trying to fund a Greek bail oit



I can't see any of these being legit....but...they are olut there

I'm in for a Gyro and some baklava

SAND DIAL wrote:
soapbox is closed.

sb is closed for conservatives...liberals can still post their idiotic comments and pat themselves on the back. To the topic, another example of socialism at its finest.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

Tax the real wealth.

For a change.

Democrats are overwhelmingly in favor of this. I say we tax Democrats at 85%...this will solve our debt problems.

Michael Bots wrote:
More awkward questions about what money really is and who gets to create it.


Germany publicly accepts the results of the Greek NO vote. HISTORY was just made today. Greece may Unilaterally print it’s own Euros! Dow Jones Futures down over -200 and falling FAST !
http://investmentwatchblog.com/germany- … ling-fast/

"while Greece and the ECB may be on the verge of a terminal fall out, Greece still has something of great value: a Euro printing press"

The Greeks dont have plates or presses for anything bigger than a 10 Euro note - all of the larger denominations are actually flown in from Germany.


Defiant Greeks reject EU demands as Syriza readies IOU currency
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ … rency.html

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
Democrats are overwhelmingly in favor of this. I say we tax Democrats at 85%...this will solve our debt problems.

Mine actually makes sense. As usual.

LightDreams wrote:
One of the MAJOR factors has been many Greeks long standing philosophy that they shouldn't pay taxes.

To understand how big of an issue this is, I think it was the Guardian this week that had a chart comparing how (on average) 3.5% of Germans do not pay their taxes compared to 89.5% of Greeks who do not pay their taxes.  Think about that for a moment.

When the vast majority of the population (historically and currently) avoids their taxes, and the Gov't is viewed as doing very little to change that, AND people then want to collect their pensions and Gov't salaries, let alone think the Gov't should inject money into their banks that the people have pulled almost all of their money out of, etc, well none of it adds up.

That's why they use to keep devaluing their money, and then later, relied on the Europeans to keep injecting more and more and more.

Then about 1 1/2 weeks ago, it stopped...

When corrupt governments print money out of thin air, it is the same as levying taxes on it's citizenry.  Spontaneous production of currency reduces the wealth of citizens while increasing the wealth of government (for the short term anyway) without having to physically take money from individuals.  The government uses the value of its ill-gotten wealth before the damaging effects of inflation occur.

If it were not for all the people who make an incredible amount of money pushing paper, an inflation-currency tax model would be a very efficient way to fund government because there would be no cost to collecting the money with everyone being proportionately victim to rising prices.

I always find it amusing when people say that some portion of a country's population doesn't pay taxes.  Everyone pays taxes as a result of inflation. 

Governments everywhere are going bankrupt.  After years of bribing people to look the other way through the offering of alluring entitlements, we are now at the stage of imminent failure because the engine of real productivity is broken.  Even with technology, there are not enough people doing productive work that can support everyone who isn't. 

Consider Greece to be the proverbial canary in the coal mine.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

Mine actually makes sense. As usual.

Like the one at the top of this page?

SAND DIAL wrote:
The percentage of public employees in the workforces of these countries ranges from 6.35 percent in Singapore to 33.87 percent in Sweden.

Indeed the three lowest countries, and the only ones with fewer than 10 percent public employees, are Japan, Singapore, and Taiwan.

The highest countries after Sweden are Denmark (32.3 percent) and Norway (29.25 percent). The remaining Scandinavian country, Finland, is fifth with 26.31 percent. In fourth place, just below Denmark, is Hungary.

The other countries with public-employee percentages above 20 percent are Greece (22.3 percent), Canada, and Poland, Greece being the lowest in this group of eight countries, despite all the negative attention its public-employee workforce has received lately.

[6% to -yikes- 34%--bwaaa]

http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2011/ … osner.html

Percentage of public employees does not seem to be a reliable indicator of whether or not a government is headed into trouble (i.e. Japan's economy vs Denmark).  There are way too many other ways money can be squandered.  Also, some countries have plenty of natural resources that the rest of the world consumes.  Canada and Norway, for instance, can fund a ridiculous level of social programs almost regardless of tax revenue as long as the rest of the world keeps buying oil, coal, fish and timber.

Jay Dezelic wrote:
Canada and Norway, for instance, can fund a ridiculous level of social programs almost regardless of tax revenue as long as the rest of the world keeps buying oil, coal, fish and timber.

Wow. He actually thinks our top exports are coal, fish and lumber!  And they're funding our "ridiculous level of social programs".

oh well.  By the way, top exports?  Yes, oil is one. Followed by vehicles, machines, gems, electronic equipment, plastics, aircraft / spacecraft components (mainly satellite engineering).  And so the list goes, as I read down from the top in order of exports / money makers...

And if only we had as much coal as the U.S.  Or maybe if our fishing industry was a large as the U.S.   Then, who knows, maybe...!

LightDreams wrote:

Wow. He actually thinks our top exports are coal, fish and lumber!  Not to mention our "ridiculous level of social programs".

oh well.  By the way, top exports?  Yes, oil is one. Followed by vehicles, machines, gems, electronic equipment, plastics, aircraft / spacecraft components (mainly satellite engineering).  And so the list goes, as I read down from the top in order of exports / money makers...

And if only we had as much coal as the U.S. then just maybe...!

Where did I say "top exports"?  Domestic natural resources provide Canada with distinct advantages over other countries.

Most natural resources in the US have been regulated out of existence by our U.N. controlled Environmental Protection Agency.

Jay Dezelic wrote:
our U.N. controlled Environmental Protection Agency.

hahahahahahaha