Looknsee Photography wrote:
My personal theory is some members like to look down on other photographers
I happen to love other photographers.  As I've often stated, I'm lucky to live in an area with an active photographic community.  We communicate often.  We share recommendations, references, and resources.  We do group projects together.  We get together for occasional meet & greets, gallery openings, camping trips, and so forth.  We got a small group together, hired a model, and all those photographers who work exclusively with natural light get to work with strobes.  We had a small group get together, and we all made portraits of each other.  I love watching other photographers work.  I love looking at other photographer's images.  They are inspiring & fun.

What I don't like are those members who "look down" on, denigrate, disrespect, and/or abuse models.  You know the type -- they say things like...
...  "All it takes to be a good model is to have good genes".
...  "There is no talent to posing".
...  "95% of the models on MM are virtually worthless".
...  "When a model flakes, it's always the model's fault".

You can also identify these members by what they do: 
...  They get their panties in a twist if a model doesn't respond.
...  They choose models from the most inexperienced & unreliable sources possible.
...  They say "I can't" when they really mean "I won't".
...  They have inappropriate expectations -- they assume a brand new, inexperienced newbie to behave
     like a seasoned professional.
...  They expect models to have the time for endless discussions about their concepts.
...  They get offended if/when a model asks to get paid.
...  They expect all of us to take their side without us hearing the other side.

Before you bandy about the "white knight" label on me, I should mention that I'm providing these photographers with constructive methodologies on how they can avoid flakes. 

The bottom line:  when a photographer's photo session fails to happen, that session is a failure.  If a photographer consistently blames other people for that failure, then it is unlikely that these failures will stop.


Well, of course there is.
...  Some photographers have better flake ratios than others.
...  Some photographers have better technical skills than others.
...  Some photographers are more creative & original than others.
...  Some photographers are better organized than others.
...  Some photographers are more productive than others.
...  Some photographers are better paid than others.
...  Models like working with some photographers better than others.
...  and so forth.

Photography (and modeling) are competitive activities, and if you believe that we are all equal, you just don't get it.  If you are all equal to all the other photographers in the world, you need do nothing to improve yourself.  For those that experience a large number of flakes, that's exactly what you can continue to expect.  [i]If, however, having flakes bother you, improve your selection criteria & avoid the models who flake!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Just today, you've contributed to 3 or more "flake threads" including resurrecting 2 old threads.  What's going on?

I just was ripped off by a model for a $350 travel advance from LA to NYC. After I sent her the money, via Paypal, she posted a travel notice in MM that she would be available in NYC in early February and had a rate of $125/hr. She now writes that she is completely booked. (An outright lie. I know other honest traveling models who are struggling to obtain bookings in NYC.) She refuses to return the advance. She has blocked me on MM.

My attorney told me it was a open and shut case if we could get her into court which is difficult since she resides in LA.

Carney Malone wrote:
I just was ripped off by a model for a $350 travel advance from LA to NYC. After I sent her the money, via Paypal, she posted a travel notice in MM that she would be available in NYC in early February and had a rate of $125/hr. She now writes that she is completely booked. (An outright lie. I know other honest traveling models who are struggling to obtain bookings in NYC.) She refuses to return the advance. She has blocked me on MM.

My attorney told me it was a open and shut case if we could get her into court which is difficult since she resides in LA. We are looking at the possibility of filing a criminal complaint against her but the Internet makes it difficult to determine which law enforcement agency has jurisdiction.

Sorry to hear that, Carney : (

This has happened to many photographers on MM.

The OP deserves to know that she's not the only one who has been flaked on and that it's the norm on this site.

Bare Essential Photos wrote:

Sorry to hear that, Carney : (

This has happened to many photographers on MM.

The OP deserves to know that she's not the only one who has been flaked on and that it's the norm on this site.

I hope others learn from my gullibility. If they do it was worth the loss.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

My personal theory is some members like to look down on other photographers.   I see no proof the OP is doing the same thing over and over.   Nor has she  ignored constructive suggestions.   Maybe she should ask if the person she was in contact with in the profile was the actual model or a manager or friend.   Part of being in a business which works with the public is understanding that sometimes folks won't show or call or may come late or leave early or arrive unprepared or in a few cases ( in mine) in need of a shower. 

I sell Amazon Fire Sticks and laptops via Craigslist.   Sometimes people flake.   Should I demand references before I sell to them.   'I'm sorry, sir I can't sell to you because no one has that I can speak with.'   Wisdom is understanding that you can't make anyone do anything.   Some people use references, experienced models and payment as a hedge against flakes.   Of note is  in several recent threads payment and experience meant nothing.   There are members who are very cautious of working with new models.   Their flake rate may be low because of that.   There are a lot of photographers who get flakes and just move on.   They don't complain in forums.


PS:   There is NO lower tier photographer.

I agree with you 100%. I don't know why certain MM photographers need to kick other photographers when they are down.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Just today, you've contributed to 3 or more "flake threads" including resurrecting 2 old threads.  What's going on?

Carney Malone wrote:
I just was ripped off by a model for a $350 travel advance from LA to NYC. After I sent her the money, via Paypal, she posted a travel notice in MM that she would be available in NYC in early February and had a rate of $125/hr. She now writes that she is completely booked. (An outright lie. I know other honest traveling models who are struggling to obtain bookings in NYC.) She refuses to return the advance. She has blocked me on MM.

My attorney told me it was a open and shut case if we could get her into court which is difficult since she resides in LA. We are looking at the possibility of filing a criminal complaint against her but the Internet makes it difficult to determine which law enforcement agency has jurisdiction.

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties.

I can offer only a little advice.  From my own personal (non-photographic) experiences, court cases can get expensive real fast, especially when the plaintiff & the defendant live in different states.  Yes, you may have an open & shut case, but are you willing to spend $3,000 to get that $350 back?  Don't believe your lawyer if he says it'll cost you less -- lawyers are not motivated to find cheap & fast solutions.

So, my only advice:  don't spend a lot of money (or time or energy) on a model with whom you don't have a track record.  In particular, never pay an advance to a stranger.

Live & learn.

Bare Essential Photos wrote:
The OP deserves to know that she's not the only one who has been flaked on and

True.

Bare Essential Photos wrote:
that it's the norm on this site.

Not at all true.  I've had several dozen (or hundreds) sessions with models from this site, and I've had exceedingly few flakes.  I'm not the only one with an exceptional"flake ratio".  I suspect that my "luck" is attributable to my willingness to screen for & select only reliable models.

What Fun Productions wrote:
I agree with you 100%. I don't know why certain MM photographers need to kick other photographers when they are down.

Ha!  Pretty funny, coming from an MM photographer whose sole contribution is to kick another when she perceives that he is down.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties.

I can offer only a little advice.  From my own personal (non-photographic) experiences, court cases can get expensive real fast, especially when the plaintiff & the defendant live in different states.  Yes, you may have an open & shut case, but are you willing to spend $3,000 to get that $350 back?  Don't believe your lawyer if he says it'll cost you less -- lawyers are not motivated to find cheap & fast solutions.

So, my only advice:  don't spend a lot of money (or time or energy) on a model with whom you don't have a track record.  In particular, never pay an advance to a stranger.

Live & learn.

Good advice. I have known my attorney for many years. I can vouch for her honesty and integrity. We will sue only if it clear that we can recover all costs involved in the litigation: travel: attorney's fees; and such.

Meanwhile we are investigating the possibility for filing a criminal complaint against her. The difficulty is determining which legal authority has jurisdiction since Internet fraud is a relatively new area of the law.

Once  again I hope that other MMers are learning from my mistakes.

Carney Malone wrote:
Good advice. I have known my attorney for many years. I can vouch for his honesty and integrity. We will sue only if it clear that we can recover all costs involved in the litigation: travel: attorney's fees; and such.

Meanwhile we are investigating the possibility for filing a criminal complaint against her. The difficulty is determining which legal authority has jurisdiction since Internet fraud is a relatively new area of the law.

Once  again I hope that other MMers are learning from my mistakes.

I am sadly experienced with court cases (though none involving photography).

You are within your rights to pursue legal options available to you.  But, from my experience:
...  You may win, but you might lose.
...  Your expenses might far exceed the awards you might receive.
...  You may lose sleep.  A lot of sleep.
...  The other lawyer might say things solely designed to get you upset, mad, and willing to quit.
...  It'll take a long time to resolve your dispute.
...  All your negative feelings will become amplified.
...  Your work (photographic or otherwise) will be impacted.
...  You will tug on the coats of strangers to tell you sad story.

So, in addition to how much money it'll cost, you should consider what you'd lose just by going through this legal dispute.  Knowing what I know today, I'd chalk the ~$350 you lost as the cost of a valuable life lesson.  But that's just me.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I am sadly experienced with court cases (though none involving photography).

You are within your rights to pursue legal options available to you.  But, from my experience:
...  You may win, but you might lose.
...  Your expenses might far exceed the awards you might receive.
...  You may lose sleep.  A lot of sleep.
...  The other lawyer might say things solely designed to get you upset, mad, and willing to quit.
...  It'll take a long time to resolve your dispute.
...  All your negative feelings will become amplified.
...  Your work (photographic or otherwise) will be impacted.
...  You will tug on the coats of strangers to tell you sad story.

So, in addition to how much money it'll cost, you should consider what you'd lose just by going through this legal dispute.  Knowing what I know today, I'd chalk the ~$350 you lost as the cost of a valuable life lesson.  But that's just me.

Most good advice. If it appears that recovery in a small claims court is impossible without a substantial investment of new funds on my part I may move on. This is why many models take money in advance for services they never deliver: recovery may be expensive and time consuming.

However, there always is the filing of a criminal  complaint. The problem with this route that with internet fraud it is most difficult to determine which legal organization has jurisdiction.

Carney Malone wrote:

Most good advice. If it appears that recovery in a small claims court is impossible without a substantial investment of new funds on my part I may move on. This is why many models take money in advance for services they never deliver: recovery may be expensive and time consuming.

However, there always is the filing of a criminal  complaint. The problem with this route that with internet fraud it is most difficult to determine which legal organization has jurisdiction.

Internet fraud is primarily the purview of the FBI and the US Secret Service. You could also file reports with your state and local police agencies. See the link below:

http://www.justice.gov/criminal-ccips/r … erty-crime

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Ha!  Pretty funny, coming from an MM photographer whose sole contribution is to kick another when she perceives that he is down.

Funny you should mention kicking others when their down.   I was listening  to a Black commenter on FOX who said he hadn't experienced racism so it wasn't a problem.   So because it hasn't been a problem for him means its not for others?
When you start a conversation with.   Why should we believe you.   It puts the writer on the defensive and frankly its a funky thing to say as is saying those who complain are 'low tier photographers'.   Advice served in shi* no matter how good will be rejected by most folks.   We can offer advice in a positive way.   No judgments.   No telling them they shouldn't post their stories or they aren't offering anything of value or because they didn't check with five past employers they deserved what happened.

I see your replies to Carney Malone.   Did he deserve what happened to him?   Is he a low tier photographer.   Again its great that you have few to no flakes but your experiences are yours alone.   A look around MM forums indicates its not a isolated problem nor are those who write about it low tier photographers.   However this.   This is the true definition of Irony.   " Ha!  Pretty funny, coming from an MM photographer whose sole contribution is to kick another when she perceives that he is down."

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Funny you should mention kicking others when their down.   I was listening  to a Black commenter on FOX who said he hadn't experienced racism so it wasn't a problem.   So because it hasn't been a problem for him means its not for others?
When you start a conversation with.   Why should we believe you.   It puts the writer on the defensive and frankly its a funky thing to say as is saying those who complain are 'low tier photographers'.   Advice served in shi* no matter how good will be rejected by most folks.   We can offer advice in a positive way.   No judgments.   No telling them they shouldn't post their stories or they aren't offering anything of value or because they didn't check with five past employers they deserved what happened.

I see your replies to Carney Malone.   Did he deserve what happened to him?   Is he a low tier photographer.   Again its great that you have few to no flakes but your experiences are yours alone.   A look around MM forums indicates its not a isolated problem nor are those who write about it low tier photographers.   However this.   This is the true definition of Irony.   " Ha!  Pretty funny, coming from an MM photographer whose sole contribution is to kick another when she perceives that he is down."

Thank you for defending me.

I suspect the reason that photographers don't like to raise this issue in public is because: a,) they may look stupid to others; and b.) they may not be believed.

I'm not a martyr. Nor do I want to be pitied. I want to give my experience as a focal point for a discussion of the problem and ways to deal with it.

It is not another photographers' problem. It is your problem! Don't believe it can't happen too you. When I started hiring models I was very naive. After being ripped off by several models I stopped giving advances. Then I ran into decent honest models like Erin Mae and Floofie so I decided to try again. And I got burnt. I will still give travel advances to models who I have worked with and I know are honest. I will never give a travel advance to a model who is new to me.

Meanwhile on a somewhat related issue how does a newbie model with four mediocre pictures in her portfolio get the courage to ask for $100/hr. and become curt and indignant when she is offered less? Realistic payment expectations are perhaps even a bigger problem in MM at present. In 2011 when I started it hardly existed.

Do we need a new forum for this issue?

E Thompson Photography wrote:

Internet fraud is primarily the purview of the FBI and the US Secret Service. You could also file reports with your state and local police agencies. See the link below:

http://www.justice.gov/criminal-ccips/r … erty-crime

Thank you for your advice.

I have looked into the link that you provided.

It looks very promising.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
When you start a conversation with.   Why should we believe you.

Yeah, that might suck, except I never started the conversation this way!  If you want to beat me up, at least you can be more accurate.  I didn't say "why should we believe you" to the OP -- what I said is that we are hearing only one side of the story and that we lack sufficient information to believe or disbelieve the OP, and I did not direct my comments to the OP.  That's quite different.  Are you saying that you can determine the whole story based on one side's brief & vague detail?  You consistently accuse me of saying that I don't believe the OP -- I just said we have no reason to draw a conclusion one way or another.  He might be right.  He might be wrong.  We can't tell.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Advice served in shi* no matter how good will be rejected by most folks.   We can offer advice in a positive way.   No judgments.   No telling them they shouldn't post their stories or they aren't offering anything of value or because they didn't check with five past employers they deserved what happened.

Yet again, your reading comprehension is poor.  I was quite positive in my responses, and I never told anyone that they shouldn't post their stories.  What I said was that if one doesn't like model flakes, one could make the effort to modify one's selection criteria to avoid those more unreliable models. 

Seems to me that you are the one who is telling folks who should & shouldn't post on these threads.  Specifically, because you don't like what I have to say (based mostly on your faulty interpretation of what I actually said), you suggest that I shouldn't say anything at all.  That's all you -- I'm quite comfortable with a wide range of opinions.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I see your replies to Carney Malone.   Did he deserve what happened to him?

Never said that he got what he deserved.  That's all you.  Seems to me that you need things to be black or white, while I'm happy with all shades of gray.  I also note that I observed that he resurrected several old flake threads, and I'm the one who asked him what was going on.  He provided more information, and I gave him a couple of responses based on my experience.  He said "good advice" and "mostly good advice".  So, I think I helped.

However, you seem determined to hijack the thread away from Carney's situation, to misunderstand what I post, and to make false accusations about what you think I said.  Stay on topic, and take your disputes against me to a more appropriate place.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Is he a low tier photographer.

He appears to be a less experienced photographer.  He appears to be upset enough to start and/or resurrect multiple flake threads.  He also appears to be learning stuff, like not to send an advance to a model he doesn't know.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Again its great that you have few to no flakes but your experiences are yours alone.   A look around MM forums indicates its not a isolated problem nor are those who write about it low tier photographers.

So, if a photographer wants to improve his "flake ratio", who should he talk with?  There are tons of photographers who tell them "me, too" and "it's always the model's fault" and "there's nothing you can do" -- these photographer appear to get the lion's share of flakes.  On the other hand, there are plenty of photographers here that have excellent "flake ratios" -- seems to me you can't share secrets of your success if you are not having success.

You seem to be latched onto my contention that there are "lower tier photographers".  I don't understand why you think that's wrong.  Are we all GWC's?  Do we all produce the same results?  Are we all paid the same?  Do we all treat models the same way?  We are all different, and some are simply better, more experienced, and more fun than others.  Do you disagree?  (BTW -- I think I said "lower tier" not "low tier").

Tony Lawrence wrote:
However this.   This is the true definition of Irony.   " Ha!  Pretty funny, coming from an MM photographer whose sole contribution is to kick another when she perceives that he is down."

I think you need to understand the word "irony".

I ain't kicking nobody!  I've offered nothing but constructive suggestions.  Where did I "kick someone when they were down"?

I got questions for the group:  What to you want in a mentor?  Whose advice is worth following?
To me, a good mentor doesn't pat the mentored's hand & says "poor baby -- it happens to everyone and there's nothing you can do about it.  Get used to it".  That would be pretty worthless advice and would not be likely to solve anything.  I believe a good mentor would challenge the mentored to do better, to solve problems, the change behaviors. 

Finally, when photographers "look down on", disrespect, abuse, and/or disparage models, why do they expect anything else?

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
When you start a conversation with.   Why should we believe you.

Yeah, that might suck, except I never started the conversation this way!  If you want to beat me up, at least you can be more accurate.  I didn't say this to the OP -- what I said is that we are hearing only one side of the story and that we lack sufficient information to believe or disbelieve the OP, and I did not direct my comments to the OP.  That's quite different.  Are you saying that you can determine the whole story based on one side's brief & vague detail?  You consistently accuse me of saying that I don't believe the OP -- I just said we have no reason to draw a conclusion one way or another.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Advice served in shi* no matter how good will be rejected by most folks.   We can offer advice in a positive way.   No judgments.   No telling them they shouldn't post their stories or they aren't offering anything of value or because they didn't check with five past employers they deserved what happened.

Yet again, your reading comprehension is poor.  I never told anyone that they shouldn't post their stories.  What I said was that if one doesn't like model flakes, one could make the effort to modify one's selection criteria to avoid those more unreliable models. 

Seems to me that you are the one who is telling folks who should & shouldn't post on these threads.  Specifically, because you don't like what I have to say (based mostly on your faulty interpretation of what I actually said), you suggest that I shouldn't say anything at all.  That's all you -- I'm quite comfortable with a wide range of opinions.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I see your replies to Carney Malone.   Did he deserve what happened to him?

Never said that he got what he deserved.  That's all you.  I also note that I observed that he resurrected several old flake threads, and I'm the one who asked him what was going on.  He provided more information, and I gave him a couple of responses based on my experience.  He said "good advice" and "mostly good advice".  So, I think I helped.

However, you seem determined to hijack the thread away from Carney's situation, to misunderstand what I post, and to make false accusations about what you think I said.  Stay on topic, and take your disputes against me to a more appropriate place.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Is he a low tier photographer.

He appears to be a less experienced photographer.  He appears to be upset enough to start and/or resurrect multiple flake threads.  He also appears to be learning stuff, like not to send an advance to a model he doesn't know.


So, if a photographer wants to improve his "flake ratio", who should he talk with?  There are tons of photographers who tell them "me, too" and "it's always the model's fault" and "there's nothing you can do" -- these photographer appear to get the lion's share of flakes.  On the other hand, there are plenty of photographers here that have excellent "flake ratios" -- seems to me you can share secrets of your success if you are not having success.

You seem to be latched onto my contention that there are "lower tier photographers".  I don't understand why you think that's wrong.  Are we all GWC's?  Do we all produce the same results?  Are we all paid the same?  Do we all treat models the same way?  We are all different, and some are simply better, more experience, and more fun than others.  Do you disagree?  (BTW -- I think I said "lower tier" not "low tier").


I ain't kicking nobody!  I've offered constructive suggestions.  Where did I kick someone when they were down?

Got questions for the group:  What to you want in a mentor?  Whose advice is worth following?
To me, a good mentor doesn't pat the mentored's hand & says "poor baby -- it happens to everyone and there's nothing you can do about it.  Get used to it".  That would be pretty worthless advice and would not be likely to solve anything.  I believe a good mentor would challenge the mentored to do better, to solve problems, the change behaviors. 

Finally, when photographers "look down on", disrespect, abuse, and/or disparage models, why do they expect anything

else?

Carney Malone wrote:
Meanwhile on a somewhat related issue how does a newbie model with four mediocre pictures in her portfolio get the courage to ask for $100/hr. and become curt and indignant when she is offered less? Realistic payment expectations are perhaps even a bigger problem in MM at present. In 2011 when I started it hardly existed.

Because GWC's will tell them anything they want to hear, and pay them anything they want just to see them naked.

They don't know what good photographs are, and they don't care.

BTW, the current rate for newbs here is $125 an hour for fully clothed in the park, and she has to bring her friend.

Now excuse me, I'm off to hire from Craigs.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
True.


Not at all true.  I've had several dozen (or hundreds) sessions with models from this site, and I've had exceedingly few flakes.  I'm not the only one with an exceptional"flake ratio".  I suspect that my "luck" is attributable to my willingness to screen for & select only reliable models.

Oh, so you decribe your situation as one involving "luck."

Ok, you're halfway there ... LOL

You're also the person to put yourself in a position as stating that there are "lower tier" photographers. Of course, you're not one of the "lower tier" photographers. It's nice to know that you've put yourself in that position. I'm sure that someday soon you'll have an autobiography out ... LOL

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, I'll continue to be constructive and let the OP know that flaking is a norm on this site.

Natural Light on Location wrote:

Because GWC's will tell them anything they want to hear, and pay them anything they want just to see them naked.

They don't know what good photographs are, and they don't care.

BTW, the current rate for newbs here is $125 an hour for fully clothed in the park, and she has to bring her friend.

Now excuse me, I'm off to hire from Craigs.

The ask rate of course. Not the bid rate.

Mary Durante Youtt wrote:
Note to self:  Don't pay in advance, not even a deposit.  That goes for traveling models as well.  The only time I ask for a deposit is when I shoot weddings and it's because i block that day for them.

Good advice for the photographer and the model. The only exception is if they know and trust each other,

Carney Malone wrote:
Meanwhile on a somewhat related issue how does a newbie model with four mediocre pictures in her portfolio get the courage to ask for $100/hr. and become curt and indignant when she is offered less? Realistic payment expectations are perhaps even a bigger problem in MM at present. In 2011 when I started it hardly existed.

Do we need a new forum for this issue?

My feeling is that these situations aren't worth the angst.  These things take care of themselves:

...  If she gets that $100/hr, congratulations to her, and I guess her rates justified.
...  If she can't find work at $100/hr, she'll either lower her rates or quit.

Either way, problem solved.  Who are we to judge other people & their rates?  Would you like it if someone else determines that your rates are too high?

It's the old, basic, Negotiations 101 rule -- everyone has the right to ask for whatever compensation she wants, and the other party has the right to accept, decline, or make a counter-offer.


What do you think a new forum would accomplish?

Looknsee Photography wrote:

My feeling is that these situations aren't worth the angst.  These things take care of themselves:

...  If she gets that $100/hr, congratulations to her, and I guess her rates justified.
...  If she can't find work at $100/hr, she'll either lower her rates or quit.

Either way, problem solved.  Who are we to judge other people & their rates?  Would you like it if someone else determines that your rates are too high?

It's the old, basic, Negotiations 101 rule -- everyone has the right to ask for whatever compensation she wants, and the other party has the right to accept, decline, or make a counter-offer.


What do you think a new forum would accomplish?

It is important to have a realistic appraisal of ones value. If someone open negotiations with unrealistic expectations that person will not achieve a successful bargain. There wiill be no agreement.

I wonder how many potential models have unrealistic expectations and when these expectations are not me they give up modeling? Every successful model that I have worked with told me of the time she struggled to get by with TFs until she built a good portfolio.

Too many new models (And photographers too!) don't understand this.

Of course, anyone can ask for any compensation they wish. However, they should understand why they are rejected..

Carney Malone wrote:
It is important to have a realistic appraisal of ones value. If someone open negotiations with unrealistic expectations that person will not achieve a successful bargain. There wiill be no agreement.

If she sets her rates too high, there will be no agreements.  I agree.  But her setting her rates is her business & no one else's.  Like I said, if you don't make a deal with her, that's your business.  If someone else meets her rate, then her rate is justified.  If all others reject her rates, things will take care of themselves.

Carney Malone wrote:
I wonder how many potential models have unrealistic expectations and when these expectations are not me they give up modeling? Every successful model that I have worked with told me of the time she struggled to get by with TFs until she built a good portfolio.

Too many new models (And photographers too!) don't understand this.

Of course, anyone can ask for any compensation they wish. However, they should understand why they are rejected..

Sorry, but not my job to educate a model about what rates are realistic for her.  If she wants feedback, she can ask.  Otherwise, I don't offer unsolicited advice about what her rates should be.  Besides, I only know what I am and am not willing to pay -- I don't presume to be the model's agent or manager, setting her rates for her, and I don't represent all photographers with regards to that model's rates.  I doubt that any photographer here would welcome anyone telling him what his "realistic rates" are.

And I got to say that if a photographer tries to set a model's rates or pass judgment on her rates -- isn't that "looking down on" the models?

Carney Malone wrote:
For the record...

I have a very low flake ratio.

This is because I work with experienced models who are most professional. If you examine my portfolio and top twelve list you will see this is true.

I rarely offer TFs. I hardly ever work with Newbies.

The issue that concerns me is the unethical behavior of a model retaining a travel advance and refusing to shoot.

I have yet to read a justification for this behavior.

If you receive an advance.

And the photographer agrees to your terms almost four weeks before you arrive in the target area.

Then you must either return the advance or have the shoot.

here's a heavy suggestion for traveling models...don't pay their way to your location. Find some other way of compensating them, example, offer to host them/drive them around to a few of their shoots, or get them other work in exchange for shooting them. If they don't show, no biggee.
You can also fly to them. If they don't show, you can make a small vacation out of it and shoot other things. Most people on MM don't seem to learn from other's mistakes and from the threads like this, it seems many people do the same things over and over and think by blaming a model, that somehow you're going to change mass behavior.
Only focus on the things you personally have the ability to change.
I'll also agree on the "tiering" of photographers. Established and well known photographers who are known in the community for paying models and providing top work seem to have less of these stories than those of us who don't do this daily. OP this isn't a reflection on your work, however you'll have to learn from the experience of others plus do as much as you can to avoid flakes up front if you want to reduce these problems.
I'll also say that hiring a lawyer over $350 for some 19 year old crack whore that created a MM account doesn't' seem to be a wise investment of funds...but that's just me.

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:

here's a heavy suggestion for traveling models...don't pay their way to your location. Find some other way of compensating them, example, offer to host them/drive them around to a few of their shoots, or get them other work in exchange for shooting them. If they don't show, no biggee.
You can also fly to them. If they don't show, you can make a small vacation out of it and shoot other things. Most people on MM don't seem to learn from other's mistakes and from the threads like this, it seems many people do the same things over and over and think by blaming a model, that somehow you're going to change mass behavior.
Only focus on the things you personally have the ability to change.
I'll also agree on the "tiering" of photographers. Established and well known photographers who are known in the community for paying models and providing top work seem to have less of these stories than those of us who don't do this daily. OP this isn't a reflection on your work, however you'll have to learn from the experience of others plus do as much as you can to avoid flakes up front if you want to reduce these problems.
I'll also say that hiring a lawyer over $350 for some 19 year old crack whore that created a MM account doesn't' seem to be a wise investment of funds...but that's just me.

Wow.  19 year old crackwhore? Is that really how you see models?

I'm 99% sure that I know who the model is and, If I'm correct, she's a well established model and definitely not some random wannabe.

The poster of this rant claims to have sent travel expenses before he and the model had even established rates.  He states that he agreed to her hourly fee two days later and then wanted to discuss a date and time. Why would anyone send money for travel expenses for a shoot without a date, time and hourly rate established? 

I have a feeling that there's a LOT more to this story...

Lieza Nova wrote:
Wow.  19 year old crackwhore? Is that really how you see models?

No, it was figurative for some of the people here who have no regard for how to do business. Anyone who's been on MM longer than a year knows that I've worked with many stellar models here and have much respect for people who honor their word. I've also had a similar experience with a model who was well known here and had 21,000+ posts on the forum, had been published multiple times etc and who came with great references stiff me for $650 in plane fare after agreeing to fly here for a workshop. It happens to the best of us. The OP has worked with numerous models too...and your "friend" is definitely tell the "other side" of the story.

Natural Light on Location wrote:
Because GWC's will tell them anything they want to hear, and pay them anything they want just to see them naked.

I hear about these mythical creatures who will "pay them anything they want just to see them naked," but I'm not sure where those unicorns are. Or were. I worked my ass off to make a living wage modeling. It was better money than pulling espressos at Starbucks, but there were never people lining up with hundreds in their hands to take some nekkid pictures.

Carney Malone wrote:
The model who took a travel advance from me and then refused to shoot or to refund the advance posted this on Tumblr a few days ago.

Her loss really. You are a wonderful person to work with.

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:

No, it was figurative for some of the people here who have no regard for how to do business. Anyone who's been on MM longer than a year knows that I've worked with many stellar models here and have much respect for people who honor their word. I've also had a similar experience with a model who was well known here and had 21,000+ posts on the forum, had been published multiple times etc and who came with great references stiff me for $650 in plane fare after agreeing to fly here for a workshop. It happens to the best of us. The OP has worked with numerous models too...and your "friend" is definitely tell the "other side" of the story.

You didn't qualify your crackwhore comment as a slam against a certain type of model, so there's really no way of knowing.  But, really, is it appropriate to use that kind of language in a professional public forum?

That's great for you that you've worked with great models.  I've worked with stellar photographers over the past 15 years.  However, not every model and every photographer are going to mesh.  It happens and it's best for those two parties to move on without the drama.

I don't know the model in question personally but there seems to be quite a bit more to this.  You know the saying: There are three sides to every story.  His, hers and the truth, which lies somewhere in the middle. Such is the case here.  Are we going to believe this story 100%, just because it was posted on the internet?

Koryn apparently had a good experience with this photographer.  That doesn't mean that other models haven't or that it's 100% the models fault that things didn't work out.

Lieza Nova wrote:

You didn't qualify your crackwhore comment as a slam against a certain type of model, so there's really no way of knowing.  But, really, is it appropriate to use that kind of language in a professional public forum?

actually, and it seems you've been here long enough to know, OT is not necessarily where the "professional" is with regards to MM forums. Secondly, I have a mother and she taught me to speak my mind. The comment was appropriate for the ripoff artists who regularly stiff other professionals on MM. I've seen models do it, MUA's, photographers...and they have one thing in common...they don't stay here long. Based on what I've read and the comments here I have no reason to doubt the story. It happens regularly here.
MM is the Uber of the Internet for models, photographers etc meeting each other to collaborate. As such and because it's free, there are numerous wannabes who post a pretty picture or two but aren't serious about their craft. No need to stick up for a "model" you obviously don't know, especially when the OP's story has a degree of credibility.

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:

actually, and it seems you've been here long enough to know, OT is not necessarily where the "professional" is with regards to MM forums. Secondly, I have a mother and she taught me to speak my mind. The comment was appropriate for the ripoff artists who regularly stiff other professionals on MM. I've seen models do it, MUA's, photographers...and they have one thing in common...they don't stay here long. Based on what I've read and the comments here I have no reason to doubt the story. It happens regularly here.
MM is the Uber of the Internet for models, photographers etc meeting each other to collaborate. As such and because it's free, there are numerous wannabes who post a pretty picture or two but aren't serious about their craft. No need to stick up for a "model" you obviously don't know, especially when the OP's story has a degree of credibility.

So does the model's side.  I'm not going to p
Out her but she is a well established model who has some pretty stellar credits and credibility. Not some little kid who put up a profile last week.

We make assumptions based on experience.  While it's very common, it's not always accurate.  I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences, but it doesn't mean that every similar story is true.

Lieza Nova wrote:

So does the model's side.  I'm not going to p
Out her but she is a well established model who has some pretty stellar credits and credibility. Not some little kid who put up a profile last week.

We make assumptions based on experience.  While it's very common, it's not always accurate.  I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences, but it doesn't mean that every similar story is true.

so let her come here and refute the story herself. As I mentioned, this isn't MY first rodeo either. I rarely have flakes anymore because I've ridden the same road as the OP. There are stellar people to work with here...but I've also seen people here with a supposedly fantastic cred  who have no problem with stiffing someone for airfare, or canceling a paid gig at the last minute.