E H wrote:

(I did shorten your quote up a little)

?? If they do go to a workshop, learn the set up,, technically if they retain it, they are that good, nothing else but they can do that and that will happen again maybe maybe not... These are no threat to you, might made you think a little more and keep you on your toes more,,, but they will never catch you... Are you saying weekend workshop or formal eduction will catch years,, impossible...
  The old dog always holds the bag of time,, and there is a shitloads of tricks in that bag...
I haven't really looked into Peter but what I know he is training new photographers, I look at that and think it good because it will keep me on my toes, thinking, working and looking to learn new things.. Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci was,,, because he was as good as Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci,, same as Dutch painter Rembrandt,, they where not the only ones doing what they did,,  BUT I am sure you could tell the difference between the real one and another...

"the feel of a snake oil salesman or someone who copies an Avedon image, and claims that they are the second coming" How or why this gives you anxiety,, I dunno that is something only you can answer for yourself.

I would add,, the people that showed someone else how to do something,, like the how to camps like: baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, how to skate and on and on,,,, technically they are snake oil saleman??? and we all know how that works out if they go to camp and start saying they are the second coming,LOL... Karma usually kicks in pretty quickly, not saying they can't be but it is not going to happen that quickly......

Let Peter Hurley be Peter Hurley,,, he is not trying to be Herman Surkis,,  nor could he be...

Pretty much agree with you.
However I do not get annoyed at someone teaching me and others how to carve out or use a wheel or even a new use for the wheel. We all need to get back to basics every so often. I do get annoyed when they act like they invented the wheel. That is just me.

There are many excellent photographers who teach the basics and do a great job of it, but at no time do they pretend they invented this method, even when they might actually be the one to invent that method.

Too often you get the "I am going to teach seminars because I just discovered that you need light to take photographs. This is an amazing discovery."

Peter may or may not be technically better than myself and many others, let's face it his lighting is pretty simple, but he will certainly kill me with that ability to consistently get that little extra something out of his subjects.

And the only reason I started this is as a discussion of generalities, is that I liked him better when he was a little more humble. I will be the first to admit that survival (making money) requires not being humble and convincing the clients that you are the best thing since sliced cheese. I get it. I personally do not like it. Mostly because I suck at it. I needed a rep. in the old days in Toronto, because I sucked so badly at it.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Pretty much agree with you.
However I do not get annoyed at someone teaching me and others how to carve out or use a wheel or even a new use for the wheel. We all need to get back to basics every so often. I do get annoyed when they act like they invented the wheel. That is just me.

There are many excellent photographers who teach the basics and do a great job of it, but at no time do they pretend they invented this method, even when they might actually be the one to invent that method.

Too often you get the "I am going to teach seminars because I just discovered that you need light to take photographs. This is an amazing discovery."

Peter may or may not be technically better than myself and many others, let's face it his lighting is pretty simple, but he will certainly kill me with that ability to consistently get that little extra something out of his subjects.

And the only reason I started this is as a discussion of generalities, is that I liked him better when he was a little more humble. I will be the first to admit that survival (making money) requires not being humble and convincing the clients that you are the best thing since sliced cheese. I get it. I personally do not like it. Mostly because I suck at it. I needed a rep. in the old days in Toronto, because I sucked so badly at it.

The old dog is never too old to learn, like you said sometimes we need to go back to basic, he has his whole package put together very well, I know. NOTHING says you can't start working on the things you need to today or tomorrow, I think that why it hits you so,, maybe you know in the back of your head maybe you should have been working on it and didn't,, I dunno that's your call. I think any photographer worth their salt is willing to learn or see things and fix it themselves or be able to put someone/thing in place to make things better.
Personally I love and study the intricacies of the face, never ending study for me and always willing to learn from anyone something new and like most photographers business, I used to hate it,, I have gotten to not mind it,, so I study and learn what I can, when I can, from who I can,,, take it all and use it to put into,, my package and what I do, always working on it.

P.S.
IF YOU HAVE TO, lol.
Nothing says, you can't show the young pups the wheel in a way they don't know about or how to do,, you hold the bag of time my friend. Pull out a few of them there tricks,,,  show'em who is who.

But, I really think Peter just wants to help over all,, and help the older photographers to be on one's there toes,, which we should be honestly, right?

An old wise man, born in the last century, told me once learn to love what you hate,, in that one step, you will become above average at whatever it is. This may or may not be what Peter did,,, But NOTHING says you are too old to try it.... I do this as much as possible,,, just have to keep at it.

ALL THE BEST

E H wrote:

The old dog is never too old to learn, like you said sometimes we need to go back to basic, he has his whole package put together very well, I know. NOTHING says you can't start working on the things you need to today or tomorrow, I think that why it hits you so,, maybe you know in the back of your head maybe you should have been working on it and didn't,, I dunno that's your call. I think any photographer worth their salt is willing to learn or see things and fix it themselves or be able to put someone/thing in place to make things better.
Personally I love and study the intricacies of the face, never ending study for me and always willing to learn from anyone something new and like most photographers business, I used to hate it,, I have gotten to not mind it,, so I study and learn what I can, when I can, from who I can,,, take it all and use it to put into,, my package and what I do, always working on it.

P.S.
IF YOU HAVE TO, lol.
Nothing says, you can't show the young pups the wheel in a way they don't know about or how to do,, you hold the bag of time my friend. Pull out a few of them there tricks,,,  show'em who is who.

But, I really think Peter just wants to help over all,, and help the older photographers to be on one's there toes,, which we should be honestly, right?

An old wise man, born in the last century, told me once learn to love what you hate,, in that one step, you will become above average at whatever it is. This may or may not be what Peter did,,, But NOTHING says you are too old to try it.... I do this as much as possible,,, just have to keep at it.

ALL THE BEST

Actually I do force myself to shoot stuff I generally don't like. Such as macro. Not my thing, but the rest of my stuff does get better, even if the macro stuff is mediocre. I have started shooting male models, simply because  it is something I have ignored. (hint: agency male models are much, much easier to get for trade, everybody wants the hot young babes, so the agencies love it when you want the guys for trade.)

I have done nudes, simply because it is not my style. It is a lot harder to photograph someone when they have no clothes. 

And I have run workshops for the camera club, and have done a better job than some people who are better photographers, And some decent photographers have done a dynamite job of running workshops.

And absolutely, an old dog can learn new tricks (until their mind goes, at which point everything is new), but they have to want to.

And faces is something I wish somebody local would do a workshop on. And Youtube would have more. A good agency booker can really spot faces. I have drooled over young ladies that my friend at the agency has said "cute". And she has sent me a new face that I have said "cute", and then put some light on her and a camera in front of her and "holy shit!!!!" magic. Yes that is what the booker is supposed to do, know the difference. Wish I could.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Actually I do force myself to shoot stuff I generally don't like. Such as macro. Not my thing, but the rest of my stuff does get better, even if the macro stuff is mediocre. I have started shooting male models, simply because  it is something I have ignored. (hint: agency male models are much, much easier to get for trade, everybody wants the hot young babes, so the agencies love it when you want the guys for trade.)

I have done nudes, simply because it is not my style. It is a lot harder to photograph someone when they have no clothes. 

And I have run workshops for the camera club, and have done a better job than some people who are better photographers, And some decent photographers have done a dynamite job of running workshops.

And absolutely, an old dog can learn new tricks (until their mind goes, at which point everything is new), but they have to want to.

And faces is something I wish somebody local would do a workshop on. And Youtube would have more. A good agency booker can really spot faces. I have drooled over young ladies that my friend at the agency has said "cute". And she has sent me a new face that I have said "cute", and then put some light on her and a camera in front of her and "holy shit!!!!" magic. Yes that is what the booker is supposed to do, know the difference. Wish I could.

I have found no clothes always very easy and comfortable to do, same as detailing. Faces are always magic, timing needs to be good but I always had the love of faces and the lines of an amazing nude,, luck maybe,, I have worked/know some incredible people and I have always treated everyone with kindness and respect and got the same in return,, with exceptional work produced, few things will be soon going to see the galleries and a few more need to be done yet, like you say need the right things in place.

If everything is new again,,, 1) you won't know it and,, 2) SWEET, I love learn new photography,lol. 
Ever try to do something you used to love to do that you didn't have time for any more,,, suddenly you have more time to do it... and if the old dog doesn't want to,, he doesn't care,, cus his not in to it anymore, any ways and will just walk away.

The great thing is we all have our own ways of doing things, we all have to work on something different, some the same things and it is not a race,, but there are no guarantees,, that any of us will show up to work tomorrow...

Herman Surkis wrote:
He is good...
Not as great as he thinks he is.
Not as innovative as he thinks he is.
Worth $1000 a sitting...no.

But damn it all, he is a great self promoter.
And he really hits it as a motivational speaker (even if it often comes off like a late night K-Tel sales pitch).

I think he is worth it...
It should not bug or bother you how much others charge or how much he charges...
Good for him if he is charging what he wants to charge...

You should be admiring his marking skills...
maybe you'll learn a thing or two

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Back to trolling I see.   This will be my last response to you.   I have no respect for you.   I don't believe you graduated from a university with a degree in Physics as you claim.        This member said it best:

" marissa charles wrote:

This is hilarious 😆
This sounds more like your own life, mate. You are lying to yourself as NO ONE on this site agrees or endorses anything you post. Your default opening statement in any thread is to disagree first with a comment and then you immediately attack the person's work whilst comparing yourself to proper photographers who understand the craft and have clocked up YEARS of experience. I actually think you are not a photographer at all and your port is set up as a cover, in order to enter the website to satisfy your trolling addiction,  hence the questionable port.
And before you start attacking my work, I shall link your tag on my profile

thiswayup

Photographer

I love your profile - so sensible and grounded while still interested in the whacky fun to be had. I just wish we near enough to shoot!"   I think you're a troublemaker.   You're mean.   You're insulting.   Since I have no respect for your opinion or you.    I won't reply further.   However let me be clear.   I respect Peter's skill and business.
acumen.   He's certainly better then I am.   There are members of MM who I don't agree with but I respect.   They generally mean well.   You don't.

LOL. The guy has plenty of form I'm afraid. I used to wonder whether he was purposeful in his insults or just socially inept but I came to the firm conclusion a while ago that the consequences of his similar activity on other modelling sites would have made anyone genuine sit up and think about how they conduct themselves. But it's plainly evident that he hasn't done that which kinda confirms that he knows exactly what he's doing. The lack of credible portfolio was always a giveaway too I guess.

Samanta B wrote:
Is he worth $1000? As a photographer maybe not - but he's a businessman.

If memory serves me correctly Hurley had a modelling career before turning to photography.

Samanta B wrote:
They want an experience that makes them feel a million dollars and a photo where they look fabulous.

There are high street photography studios up and down the country which are essentially selling an experience rather than photography. Clients enjoying makeup, dressing up, being pampered and told they look wonderful and having a bit of fun. If it was just about the quality of their photography many of those studios would have gone out of business years ago. That said, most are hanging on by a thread and dogged determination whilst working long hours knocking out packages which barely provide them with sufficient income to cover their rent and other overheads.

M A R K wrote:

Samanta B wrote:
Is he worth $1000? As a photographer maybe not - but he's a businessman.

If memory serves me correctly Hurley had a modelling career before turning to photography.


There are high street photography studios up and down the country which are essentially selling an experience rather than photography. Clients enjoying makeup, dressing up, being pampered and told they look wonderful and having a bit of fun. If it was just about the quality of their photography many of those studios would have gone out of business years ago. That said, most are hanging on by a thread and dogged determination whilst working long hours knocking out packages which barely provide them with sufficient income to cover their rent and other overheads.

Exactly - the industry has definitely moved on from dated portrait studios.

Ex models have an invaluable insight into whats happening both sides of the lens...

Samanta B wrote:
Ex models have an invaluable insight into whats happening both sides of the lens...

I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

I would say though that IMO the majority of female photographers, whether or not they are or have been models, shoot with a different eye to most of the male photographers to be found on sites like this. Because of that their imagery often doesn't get a lot of appreciation from the overbearing hoards of male photographers here. Perhaps their compensation though is getting plenty of love from female models who see their work with a similar eye as well as them being more comfortable working with a female photographer in some instances.

Having said that I can think of a couple of female photographers who excel at creating damned sexy imagery and who knock the spots off almost everything I see males shooting here and on other modelling sites.

Maybe in time the balance of female vs male photographers on sites like this will improve because there certainly seems to be plenty of enthusiasm amongst models to pick up a camera and have a go.

M A R K wrote:
I looked at a couple of Hurley's lighting videos a while ago and my conclusion was that most of his success is probably founded upon his larger-than-life character - and he seems to treat celebrities much the same as he treats anybody else. But I guess that's far from unique and it can work both for and against you.

I think what you are missing is that Hurley's personality isn't just a marketing tool, it's part of how he interacts with subjects. His brand is based around the ability he developed to get head shots that would get actors work; this is a not a bs driven market, the actors go where there casting agents say. It is a market where people will pay more for better shots though - where the definition of better is that they get invited to more castings and get more jobs. Where Hurley was smart was in realizing that the glamour connected with movie head shots would allow him to create a wider brand.

It's difficult not to jump to the conclusion that photographers who offer tuition/training to other photographers aren't doing as well as they'd like with their commercial work - but that may be an unfair assessment.

It's not so much unfair as poorly thought out. If you can invest a few hundred hours in creating training materials that sell, oh, 2000 courses a year at $250 a pop for 5 years, that's an insane hourly rate by any photographer's standard - it's not like the photographer has to stand up and repeat his words every time the DVD plays. I believe James Patterson, one of the most successful authors of godawful airport novels has a writing course on the market. I really doubt that he has a problem selling books - I wish he had - he's just recognized that he can make a huge amount of money from a few hours of talking. You don't need to be failing as a photographer to want to make several millions from a few weeks work!