Photographer
Peter Hurley Photo
Posts: 4
New York, New York, US
ST Retouch wrote:
I did' t want to speak about someone's work , I was only curios why many people think that $1000 is expensive for that kind of photography.
I will tell you average cost of one good studio in cities like NY, London, Paris, Geneve etc.
1. Rent of large space if you want great location in the city - around $4000-$5000 per month
2. One employee, your assistant who knows job perfect , photography, who can answer on phone, etc at least $4000 per month
3. Electricity, one zillion other cost from $500-$1000
4. Your own salary as a photographer /owner with only $4000 per month ( which is nothing by the way if you live in such a expensive cities) .
5. What about taxes?
6. What about serious investments in interior, , guest rooms, kitchen ,cameras, lenses, lighting, computers , softwares?
So your cost will be around +/- $14000 per month if you want to run any serious business with your own studio.
$14000 divided with 22 working days per month - your daily cost is around $600 per day.
So if you shoot with $1000 per day you are dead in business .
Or another comparation, these above is to own just an average good . solid studio.
If you want to hire large high end studio with equipment like Hasselblad , Phase One, where you will be able to shoot automotive, cars, tracks etc , daily rent is from $3000-$5000 , just for studio 
That is a professional commercial photography business , rates and how things work .
That's why I ask why so many people think that $1000 day shooting rate , especially with post production including is expensive.
Actually it is very cheap.
Best I've never done a reply on here so I have no idea what I'm doing. However, you guys are hilarious! I got a google alert with this and normally wouldn't answer, but my skin has grown thicker and I'm happy for you to lay into me all you want.
Just start by looking at what ST Retouch(Thanks ST Retouch) put out here. You have no idea what my overhead is or what I'm shooting commercially on a daily basis. How you can rip apart a successful photographer making it in this day and age is beyond me. Isn't this what we all want to do? I believe headshot photography is the biggest growing genre of portraiture right now, so if you don't jump onboard and do consider yourself a portrait photographer then you'll be missing a buck for sure.
Few things to clarify although this will really piss you naysayers off. I still shoot a number of actors, but most of them are my returning clients. Corporate has gotten so massive in terms of headshot photography that I've gone that route and my Headshot Crew Associates shoot a lot of the actors now. I don't know where you got that my rate was $1300. It's actually 5K for my not artistic mediocre at best work as many of you have stated. Here's my rate page: https://peterhurley.com/rates
OK, so I did it. I responded. Bring on the onslaught of crap I'm about to be hit with.
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 6895
Glens Falls, New York, US
Peter, you have no idea how happy it made me to see you post. At least one person just pooped a little, and is going back to try and edit their posts.
I'm not a fan of your work, but that's not a dig - it just isn't my cup of tea. We all have different reasons for getting into photography, and I can only hope to one day be as successful with my own work as you are with yours.
I do respect your ability to carve out a market and service it consistently, and I cannot stress enough how cool it is that you responded to some pretty vitriolic comments in a levelheaded, noncombatative way.
You see a lot of people bitching about chefs too - they could cook a steak better. Sure, but can you do it better 30 times a night, five days a week? And is anyone even asking you to cook their steak?
For those following along: this is what good business looks like. And regardless of how much we want to think we are all wonderfully artistic snowflakes, a lot of us are in business, and should act as such.
Regardless of what you think about the photos, Mr. Hurley is clearly a strong businessman. Or as they say: hate the game, not the player.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how many haters drop out of the conversation or backpedal their comments, now that the elephant is in the room.
But I suspect this thread will die now.
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Peter Hurley Photo wrote:
I've never done a reply on here so I have no idea what I'm doing. However, you guys are hilarious! I got a google alert with this and normally wouldn't answer, but my skin has grown thicker and I'm happy for you to lay into me all you want.
Just start by looking at what ST Retouch(Thanks ST Retouch) put out here. You have no idea what my overhead is or what I'm shooting commercially on a daily basis. How you can rip apart a successful photographer making it in this day and age is beyond me. Isn't this what we all want to do? I believe headshot photography is the biggest growing genre of portraiture right now, so if you don't jump onboard and do consider yourself a portrait photographer then you'll be missing a buck for sure.
Few things to clarify although this will really piss you naysayers off. I still shoot a number of actors, but most of them are my returning clients. Corporate has gotten so massive in terms of headshot photography that I've gone that route and my Headshot Crew Associates shoot a lot of the actors now. I don't know where you got that my rate was $1300. It's actually 5K for my not artistic mediocre at best work as many of you have stated. Here's my rate page: https://peterhurley.com/rates
OK, so I did it. I responded. Bring on the onslaught of crap I'm about to be hit with. I'm glad you came into the thread Peter, nice to virtually meet you. MM once had a pretty thriving population of professional shooters, including a few legends. Today, they are, for the most part, gone. What remains is largely the equivalent of an online camera club, which has it's own set of pros and cons. Most of the folks here seem to come from a tech background rather than an art backround which is how they tend to "see" photography. Hence the back and forth earlier in the thread. There is a bit of sour grapes as well as some folks who really know their stuff. Stick around as long as you're able, while there may be a few who feel the need to poke at you, I assure you there are many more who would love to learn from you.
Photographer
Peter Hurley Photo
Posts: 4
New York, New York, US
Thanks Zack. Yeah, if I cared who liked my work I wouldn't have never gotten past the agents that told me to do it differently from the get go.
For those that don't think there's enough to go around I'm telling you there is. Nail down your look and don't give a crap what people say about it as long as it's bringing in income then who the heck cares anyway.
I went from a bartender barely making ends meet to being able to raise a family in NYC strictly off of headshot photography. I'm more proud of that fact than anything else.
Giacomo, thanks for backing me up a bit and handling the nonsense. I'm sure it's not an easy task at times. I'm hoping everyone is here to up there photo game. I just found it amazing to read the thread and figured I'd say something.
Photographer
DespayreFX
Posts: 1481
Delta, British Columbia, Canada
Gotta say... I did not see that coming! lol!
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth.
Photographer
Iktan
Posts: 879
New York, New York, US
Lol OP please respond. We anxiously await your response.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
I will say what I think to the subjects face, good and bad.
I am no longer struggling to make money.
I actually admire Peter more than I denigrate him.
Perhaps I should mix up the good and bad so that people don't just get hung up on one or the other.
These are personal opinions.
I have learned some good stuff that I use.
A lot of what he says is bang on.
I do not like his new way of selling himself and his product. Too much like a late night and K-Tel sales pitch. That late night sales pitch has made some people a lot of money. It works.
This is 2 sided, he flips from saying that he is the best in the world (look at the new stuff, not the old B&H stuff), to being incredibly self effacing and saying he is simply a good photographer who has found a niche and a style that clicks with the current market.
He constantly hammers about "know your client and interact" to get that little extra special. Bang on. (no I will NOT say Shabam).
As I have said earlier, he is a master at self promotion and business. Someone could be the best anything in the world, but if nobody knows and you cannot run a business, you will fail. Many of the best artists in the world survived only because they had galleries who knew how to promote and monetize the art. Peter is his own gallery. He cut out the middle-man.
You will learn something about headshots from Peter. The world is constantly changing. Styles change. Techniques change. He is current. However what you learn about headshots (except for some core principles) may be out in 5 years and you will be broke (I do get that Peter will be smart enough to keep reinventing himself like Joel Grimes).
However what you learn from him about promotion and business will serve you to the end of days, no matter what the style is.
I am also a member of the Headshot Crew (free version) and at least at that level, it serves as a self promotion of numbers (not unlike MM not getting rid of dead accounts). Also it is a major promotion to buy the videos, buy the paid courses, and look at 40,000,000 ads.
If I were a new photographer, just getting established, I would not hesitate to get some of the vids, and do some of the online courses. And I would and have recommended them.
(BTW there is a studio in Paris that charges $6000 for headshots)
Do I blame him for some of the "I am the best" attitude...hell no. That is what it takes to make it. Just don't like it.
My attitude of "I am one of the worst" does not help, and often falls too close to the truth.
I personally preferred the more self effacing Peter, and he would be an idiot to go back to that, since the current is selling.
There is more which I may add later.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Side note.
Somebody linked the "20 best portrait photographers in the world"
Thanks to Tony I was reminded of who was blatantly missing
Arnold Newman.
But Annie L. was in it.
So much for that list.
Would not have surprised me if they had left Karsh off. (he was in).
Photographer
Jose Deida
Posts: 1293
Reading, Pennsylvania, US
ProBoard ... greatest thing ever  I'm picking up two more next month
Photographer
R Bruce Duncan
Posts: 1178
Santa Barbara, California, US
Miracles will never cease.
[And I'm not writing about Solas leaving. Experience shows he bounces back in a New York nanosecond. LOL]
I would like to say that this thread has resolved itself in a rational manner, with creativity and technique taking the day, but… it's the Mayhem.
LOL.
As an aside, am I allowed to opine that I don't care too much about the opinion of the OP?
RBD
N.B. My hat is off to Peter Hurley.
Slumming is fun?
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4462
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I had no idea Peter was on here. Just when I thought this thread was turning so poorly. Loved the reply (and the tone). It certainly made my day!
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Well this is the old MM I miss. Freaking epic!.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
R Bruce Duncan wrote:
Miracles will never cease.
[And I'm not writing about Solas leaving. Experience shows he bounces back in a New York nanosecond. LOL]
I would like to say that this thread has resolved itself in a rational manner, with creativity and technique taking the day, but… it's the Mayhem.
LOL.
As an aside, am I allowed to opine that I don't care too much about the opinion of the OP?
RBD
N.B. My hat is off to Peter Hurley.
Slumming is fun? Hell there are times i do not care about my own opinions, or anybody else's. But we are ALL entitled to our opinions. Differences are ok.
Ad hominen shots not so good, if that is the only thing that can be used.
Interesting how polite things got when Peter walked in.
Photographer
Motordrive Photography
Posts: 7088
Lodi, California, US
welcome to the forums Peter (quick, everyone edit your posts) 
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 2733
Los Angeles, California, US
Peter Hurley Photo wrote:
Thanks Zack. Yeah, if I cared who liked my work I wouldn't have never gotten past the agents that told me to do it differently from the get go.
For those that don't think there's enough to go around I'm telling you there is. Nail down your look and don't give a crap what people say about it as long as it's bringing in income then who the heck cares anyway.
I went from a bartender barely making ends meet to being able to raise a family in NYC strictly off of headshot photography. I'm more proud of that fact than anything else.
Giacomo, thanks for backing me up a bit and handling the nonsense. I'm sure it's not an easy task at times. I'm hoping everyone is here to up there photo game. I just found it amazing to read the thread and figured I'd say something. I was happy you turned up. For reading stuff I mostly cruise the digital retouching forum as some of the guys there are rather awesome. In L.A. the headshot market is still a vibrant opportunity for photographers. I don't do headshots as my focus is turning more towards beauty. I'm going up to the Valley of Fire this weekend to shoot it, a geological wonderland 58 miles north of the Vegas Strip.
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Herman Surkis wrote:
Hell there are times i do not care about my own opinions, or anybody else's. But we are ALL entitled to our opinions. Differences are ok.
Ad hominen shots not so good, if that is the only thing that can be used.
Interesting how polite things got when Peter walked in. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, yes. But not all opinions have value. I could, for example, have an opinion on string theory, but it would be meaningless.
This site allowed members like Solas to drive off too many who actually mattered in favor of protecting those with zero discernible talent, by any measure (nor the inclination to get better, based on how they interact on the forums). I'm happy to be polite to those who wish to engage in meaningful dialog, especially if it's a topic other than gear.
The number of people on this site, who can barely operate a camera (based on a review of their portfolio) who will disparage the likes of Peter, Annie, Terry and others is laughable. If you don't like what someone does, or their style, that's cool. We all have taste. But his position was wrong, on numerous levels.
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4462
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
It seems that Solas has left the building...
Photographer
Iktan
Posts: 879
New York, New York, US
LightDreams wrote:
I had no idea Peter was on here. Just when I thought this thread was turning so poorly. Loved the reply (and the tone). It certainly made my day! You'd be surprised how many A-list high rollers are on MM that shoot celebrities and the biggest magazines in the industry.
Photographer
D a v i d s o n
Posts: 1216
Gig Harbor, Washington, US
Wow just gotta say , some people become star struck so quick ,made me laugh.
Photographer
David M Russell
Posts: 1301
New York, New York, US
@Peter Hurley
Right on, brother.
Photographer
Laurence Moan
Posts: 7844
Huntington Beach, California, US
Photographer
Black Z Eddie
Posts: 1903
San Jacinto, California, US
WAIT!!! So, someone actually closed their MM account just because of this?!? Wow.
{are we being filmed right now? this is some reality TV shhhtuff right here}
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
So many of the shooters on MM rival or exceed Hurley but who do they know. Who sees their work? Are they friends with agents, agency models, celebrities or art directors. Do they live in a large market? If you live in Nowhere, TX. few people are paying $1,300 for photos. In an age of iPhones things have changed. Hurley's videos are great I'm sure but a large part of his success he can't teach. This is because a great deal of it is his personality. https://www.youtube.com/user/peterhurleyphoto I'm happy he's making this work. Two studios in different cities in nice areas. One of my friends just closed his business. He wasn't making any money. This after over 20 years. The economy has changed. Victoria Secret has stopped their mail catalog. Print never recovered. So I applaud any shooter who does well.
Photographer
Mike Collins
Posts: 2880
Orlando, Florida, US
What a lot of people don't get is, this is a marketing and selling business. Every business is. It's not really the product or service. Thousands offer the same exact thing. Some better. Some as good. And some worse. Guess which one makes the money? The good ones? No. The ones that understand marketing and selling. Chances are the bad ones will probably not make it anyway but average to good photographers don't make it JUST based on their work.
Peter shoots a great headshot. So does perhaps hundreds of others in NY. But he is BETTER at the business end. What do you think the PROFESSIONAL in PROFESSIONAL photographer means? It means your in BUSINESS. So you better be good at that part as well or you may as well just enjoy it as a hobby. Unless your happy with the few buck here and there. Nothing wrong with that either.
As a professional, you are a marketer and seller of photographic services. Period.
The mere fact that we are talking about Peter just proves that he is very good at promoting himself. GREAT!!! HE IS SUPPOSE TOO!!. Good job Peter.
Photographer
Kent Art Photography
Posts: 3588
Ashford, England, United Kingdom
Because I'm hungry, I can only think of food - sour grapes and egg on face.
I think I'm going to remember this one.
Photographer
TomFRohwer
Posts: 1602
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
3) After a while you get tired of hearing people (especially some in other threads with little to no talent - this is not specifically directed at you) bemoan the success of others with the same tired mantras. + 1 megazillion
Photographer
TomFRohwer
Posts: 1602
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
Peter Hurley Photo wrote:
I don't know where you got that my rate was $1300. It's actually 5K for my not artistic mediocre at best work as many of you have stated. Here's my rate page: https://peterhurley.com/rates *eek* :-)
I think now you just sank the "Bismarck"... (that one bobbing up and down through this thread...)
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Mike Collins wrote:
The mere fact that we are talking about Peter just proves that he is very good at promoting himself. GREAT!!! HE IS SUPPOSE TOO!!. Good job Peter. Hi Mike!
Here's my post to Tony regarding such issues...
Tony Lawrence wrote:
What saddens me is the lack of support we give each other.
//snip//
I often wonder how successful some of us would be if instead of spending time putting each other down we invested that energy into our work. udor wrote:
Funny thing is... I have made a thread about this, including the put-downs of famous photographers and MM'ers in the fora...
...TEN YEARS AGO in 2006: What's with the "What's with the [...]?" threads?
There is something to be said about the "stability" of the general behavior of many photographers on here... 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
3) After a while you get tired of hearing people (especially some in other threads with little to no talent - this is not specifically directed at you) bemoan the success of others with the same tired mantras. Over the years... I have made it a habit to look at the portfolios of people who put down the skills and work of other photographers, known or unknown... and to no surprise, confirmed over and over again, so many of those people who are the most critical and negative about other people's work don't even come close to the person they are putting down.
In the beginning, I always thought that the person doing the put down should have a stellar portfolio, or at least a good portion of it, although they may have been very accomplished in a different field, which they think can be translated easily into people/model photography. Then, I have learned that the photographer's own portfolio is inconsistent, all kinds of lighting issues, cropping done weirdly, composition doesn't feel right and model's poses and facial expressions are awkward.
I am certainly not perfect, I am a story teller and not a technician. For me, the image doesn't have to be perfect from a technical aspect... but it should have a feel to it and that's what I am focusing on. Yet, I do have a certain experience and being published working in the industry and making a living from it... sometimes harder, sometimes very easily and can distinguish different styles of photography. Heck, I can give props to a great photo, even if I don't like that particular style!
But I have never felt the need to put someone accomplished down, with the "a child can do this" attitude... too many fragile egos... too many busy bodies who need to get a life on their own.
There is a reason I have almost never put my portfolio up for public critique (unless something specific two or three times maybe in over ten years) and I don't critique in the critique section, unless someone contacts me in person, which happened many times, and I am giving constructive feedback. Yet, I have asked photographers that are light-years beyond my skills to give me feedback in PM or emails and have learned a great deal from their thoughts about my photography... no matter if other people see it in my work or not... LOL
Well... maybe I should do a critique thread sometimes... after all... lots of people with average portfolios offering their critique to other people... maybe I can do too... :shouldershrug: (<-- I know that there is no emoticon! )
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Peter Hurley Photo wrote:
Thanks Zack. Yeah, if I cared who liked my work I wouldn't have never gotten past the agents that told me to do it differently from the get go.
For those that don't think there's enough to go around I'm telling you there is. Nail down your look and don't give a crap what people say about it as long as it's bringing in income then who the heck cares anyway.
I went from a bartender barely making ends meet to being able to raise a family in NYC strictly off of headshot photography. I'm more proud of that fact than anything else.
Giacomo, thanks for backing me up a bit and handling the nonsense. I'm sure it's not an easy task at times. I'm hoping everyone is here to up there photo game. I just found it amazing to read the thread and figured I'd say something. Most comments posted here are meaningless!
Photographer
Black Z Eddie
Posts: 1903
San Jacinto, California, US
udor wrote:
In the beginning, I always thought that the person doing the put down should have a stellar portfolio, or at least a good portion of it, although they may have been very accomplished in a different field, which they think can be translated easily into people/model photography. Then, I have learned that the photographer's own portfolio is inconsistent, all kinds of lighting issues, cropping done weirdly, composition doesn't feel right and model's poses and facial expressions are awkward. Same here. Whenever I see someone talking smack or acting like a know-it-all, I'd check out their portfolio expecting to see the works of a god! Sadly, I've yet to see that happen.
I have an old saying, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, critiques."
Photographer
DespayreFX
Posts: 1481
Delta, British Columbia, Canada
Black Z Eddie wrote:
WAIT!!! So, someone actually closed their MM account just because of this?!? Wow. Apparently, but no one important, just another one of those, "I know everything, and there couldn't possibly be another opinion that matters" types. 1 down... about 15 to go.
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Black Z Eddie wrote:
WAIT!!! So, someone actually closed their MM account just because of this?!? Wow. DespayreFX wrote:
Apparently, but no one important, just another one of those, "I know everything, and there couldn't possibly be another opinion that matters" types. 1 down... about 15 to go. I think you are talking about the same person who berated me in another thread about the fashion industry in NYC, because I stated that people who don't actually work in this industry (or worked) and have no experience in that industry, shouldn't give wrong professional advise.
That has been a while back and I think to remember that this was the same person... or same type of person...
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
udor wrote:
There is a reason I have almost never put my portfolio up for public critique (unless something specific two or three times maybe in over ten years) and I don't critique in the critique section, unless someone contacts me in person, which happened many times, and I am giving constructive feedback. Yet, I have asked photographers that are light-years beyond my skills to give me feedback in PM or emails and have learned a great deal from their thoughts about my photography... no matter if other people see it in my work or not... LOL
Well... maybe I should do a critique thread sometimes... after all... lots of people with average portfolios offering their critique to other people... maybe I can do too... :shouldershrug: (<-- I know that there is no emoticon! ) I really wish everyone could do an MFA style critique class at least once, it's such a hard yet wonderful experience. Udo, you're in NYC, you could easily do one at ICP.
I come here to have fun and get away from other stuff. I post fun stuff that I'm working on here, when I'm done with that, I'll delete it and post whatever project I'm working on at that time. I don't see MM as a professional portfolio site and certainly don't treat it as such. Unless you're sending potential clients here (and why would you) just use it how you want, who cares.
I'm working on a new still life gallery series, that takes it's inspiration from art models with a bit of social commentary thrown in, I'd love to post it here because I think it's fun, but really, what would be the point? Any of the people that I would care to have see it, I'm connected to on FB (including you!).
Photographer
Photo Jen B
Posts: 358
Surprise, Arizona, US
Peter Hurley Photo wrote:
OK, so I did it. I responded. Bring on the onslaught of crap I'm about to be hit with. Kudos, no crap from me.
Love your videos.
Jen
Photographer
Photo Jen B
Posts: 358
Surprise, Arizona, US
Gerardo Martinez wrote:
Lol OP please respond. We anxiously await your response. Indeed.
Motordrive Photography wrote:
welcome to the forums Peter
(quick, everyone edit your posts) :
|
I'm picking up two more next month 
