Oana Telegredean wrote:
Hello there!

Is there someone who had experiences like that? Do retouch an image for test and do not receive a positive or negative answer ?

Am I wrong with something?

Here is my portfolio: www.oanatelegredean.com

Am I at low level ?

I get 3 or 4 retouchers offering a free trial every week. The impression that gives is that retouchers are desperate for work in a highly competitive market - which also breeds an expectation that the cost of retouching ought to be dirt cheap. Some photographers might even take advantage of free tests to cover their retouching needs. I can't help thinking that retouchers are shooting themselves in their collective feet by offering free tests.

anchev wrote:
Perhaps that is something you should ask before agreeing to be tested. By agreeing to a test you are agreeing that your portfolio means nothing and you have to prove your skill level from scratch. That would be justified only if the content or the style is significantly different from what is already in your portfolio.

Also remember there are thousands of photographers here who repeatedly express their negative attitude to retouchers, especially "the East European block", so that may be part of the attitude you experienced. Unfortunately.

The last test which I did was for a photographer from USA. I retouched a beauty image. After few days, the photographer said to desaturate the skin a little. I did that. Sent it. No answer back. Nothing! What the hell the photographer wanted more? 

Most of them don't communicate, to build a relationship. It's very simple to give a test and buh-bye if the test wasn't what they expected. But where are the specifications? If the retoucher have good skills, why don't they say what exactly want?

Oana Telegredean wrote:
The last test which I did was for a photographer from USA. I retouched a beauty image. After few days, the photographer said to desaturate the skin a little. I did that. Sent it. No answer back. Nothing! What the hell the photographer wanted more?

Most of them don't communicate, to build a relationship. It's very simple to give a test and buh-bye if the test wasn't what they expected. But where are the specifications? If the retoucher have good skills, why don't they say what exactly want?

What can I say... I have always had a strict no-free-testing policy. I have done it twice in my life and I won't do it again. There is the portfolio + I can show hi-res before/afters upon request. If the other party cannot evaluate the quality of the retouching from such info - there is nothing more to test because a test will not show anything different. As we all know the technical process is the same regardless of the type of image, genre etc. The rest is art direction and that is to come from the client, not from you. So as long as you have beauty images in your portfolio and can show a full size before/after - there is absolutely no reason to waste time for anyone's testing.

If someone wants you to test, he should pay you for this. This is your time, your eyes, your computer. You have no obligation to work for free. Clients who are serious respect your work and your time and they never ask for this. Only someone who has no money, no eyes for your work and no understanding of the post-processing will ask for a free ride. If someone is so afraid to spend $50-$100 - what kind of business can you expect from such person? Remember that a beginner model on MM takes this money for 1 hour and professional ones take x2-3 and more. That is considered normal and acceptable.

So respect the client but don't kneel before them. Find the words to kindly remind them this is a professional service, not a school exam. Otherwise you will be doing tests to infinity.

Oana Telegredean wrote:
Hello there!

Is there someone who had experiences like that? Do retouch an image for test and do not receive a positive or negative answer ?

Am I wrong with something?

I have had nearly the same interactions as you, only no request for revisions. Once as a requested favor and
a few times as unpaid tests - TF, not a thank you, or this is not what we're looking for, just nothing.

I have mostly stopped using my retouching profile, but may bring it back to put a little more positive activity in the
retouching forum.

anchev wrote:
What can I say... I have always had a strict no-free-testing policy. I have done it twice in my life and I won't do it again. There is the portfolio + I can show hi-res before/afters upon request. If the other party cannot evaluate the quality of the retouching from such info - there is nothing more to test because a test will not show anything different. As we all know the technical process is the same regardless of the type of image, genre etc. The rest is art direction and that is to come from the client, not from you. So as long as you have beauty images in your portfolio and can show a full size before/after - there is absolutely no reason to waste time for anyone's testing.

If someone wants you to test, he should pay you for this. This is your time, your eyes, your computer. You have no obligation to work for free. Clients who are serious respect your work and your time and they never ask for this. Only someone who has no money, no eyes for your work and no understanding of the post-processing will ask for a free ride. If someone is so afraid to spend $50-$100 - what kind of business can you expect from such person? Remember that a beginner model on MM takes this money for 1 hour and professional ones take x2-3 and more. That is considered normal and acceptable.

So respect the client but don't kneel before them. Find the words to kindly remind them this is a professional service, not a school exam. Otherwise you will be doing tests to infinity.

Yes, you're right. Unfortunatelly, I saw that most of them request a test before. Or only ask for a price and turnaround time. Same here, no answer. Most of them want low prices.

And not all clients want to pay the test. Anyway, on test images I put a watermark.... Even if they want to collaborate or not.

It's hard to find serious clients, projects and so on.

Motordrive Photography wrote:
I have had nearly the same interactions as you, only no request for revisions. Once as a requested favor and
a few times as unpaid tests - TF, not a thank you, or this is not what we're looking for, just nothing.

I have mostly stopped using my retouching profile, but may bring it back to put a little more positive activity in the
retouching forum.

Sadly . Good luck in returning to the retouching!

Oana Telegredean wrote:
It's hard to find serious clients, projects and so on.

I'm looking for a retoucher.  Pm me and I promise I'll answer

Oana Telegredean wrote:
Yes, you're right. Unfortunatelly, I saw that most of them request a test before. Or only ask for a price and turnaround time. Same here, no answer. Most of them want low prices.

They may want everything but in business it also matters what the other side wants.

And not all clients want to pay the test. Anyway, on test images I put a watermark.... Even if they want to collaborate or not.

But a watermark won't give you back the wasted time - and that is what matters. Remember: Even hookers don't do free tests although they don't have a portfolio. Should retouchers agree to be more humiliated than hookers? Or should they throw their eyes in the street so everyone can kick them? Remember that next time someone asks for a test.

It's hard to find serious clients, projects and so on.

Let them find you. Do something others cannot do. Don't follow anyone.

anchev wrote:
But a watermark won't give you back the wasted time - and that is what matters. Remember: Even hookers don't do free tests although they don't have a portfolio. Should retouchers agree to be more humiliated than hookers? Or should they throw their eyes in the street so everyone can kick them? Remember that next time someone asks for a test.

Maybe I hope that someone will appreciate my effort when I do a test. But seems that is a wasted time... Most of them don't know how to collaborate.

And maybe is because this is my full time job. Isn't easy to see that you lose a project after a project, etc. That's why I hope that maybe someone will appreciate my effort...

anchev wrote:
As I have said multiple times in different threads - there are 2 dirty words in retouching: testing and high-end. As soon as one understands the meaning of this, no hope or effort is necessary.

Good point.

Thank you for your time and advices (as always )! I appreciate!

TMA Photo and Training wrote:
EDIT:  I looked at your port just now.  It is a very professional, commercial quality web portfolio.  Very well done!  You do quality beauty and commercial images.  Mayhem is not primarily a commercial agency level site.

Some Photographers here at Mayhem are just curious at what a rate from you might be.  Some times photographers here might be uncertain or curious in what a retoucher could actually do with their prized images.  Therefore, sometimes a test is desired.  Retouchers and photographers here at Mayhem are often at Very Different Creative, Technical or Business levels.  Its hard to tell... there are beginners here and some very talented photographers, retouchers and models too.

Main reason ill give is this:   Many photographers shoot their models for free... many dont even have a budget to be able to pay their models... and they usually do not have a budget for retouchers either as well!   With Photography just being a hobby or a passion... there isnt usually a lot of "Cash Flow" generated by a GWC,  or a weekend warrior,  or someone who is doing this for his favorite hobby.

If a photographer has a commercial opportunity...as opposed to a shoot done for love...then he may have a business customer who has given him a budget to work within.  If the budget is big enough,  then he will have some money to pay a model, and maybe he might even have some money built in to get his images retouched for the paying clients project.   

Sometimes a photographer will pay for a retoucher if he doesnt think he does a great job himself... but if the quote comes back just a little bit high...or the process has any annoying or undesired bumps in it... then the inquiry to the retoucher gets dropped like a hot potato.  If the reply comes back a bit too pricey to pay out of his own pocket... or if it is complicated in any way... then all the photographer wants to do is to get back to his own life...and there is almost no time in todays over-busy world to write a polite "No Thank You Because" note back to the retoucher unfortunately.  This kind of "No Courtesy Reply" is fairly common in many areas of society and business today.  Yes, many times there is no reply back after an inquiry.   Would it be nice to get a reply??? YES!  For me,  its probably only 3 out of 10 that might get back.

Mayhem is not known for being a paid, commercial, or business site for models, photographers or for many retouchers.  If you want money or good business communication and reliable interactions...then a commercial, business, agency, pro commercial photographer site would be a great place to hang out.  Theres actual money and returned e-mails at a commercial based site usually.  Some people work for love...some people work for money... For many here at Mayhem this is a fun site, or a hobby site, or an emerging pro site... and for some others... its a professional site.  There are a wide range of users here... some of us here maybe have even "Flaked" at the "courtesy of returning comments" now and then.  Dont feel bad.  See if you could figure out a way to see what you can do... to get better returns.  Best of Luck!

Hey, thank you for your encouragement message! I will try to figure out a way. Here on MM, is hard to find something good. Outside is hard, too, because there are retouchers who have a very good portfolio / clients than me. Since I didn't have the opportunity to work with big / good clients, I'm inferior to them (because of the quality of their photos - and I don't mean only the retouching, but the photos itself). And for most of them, I think that it counts...

TMA Photo and Training wrote:
Some Photographers here at Mayhem are just curious at what a rate from you might be.

The rate is a question which can be answered without a test.

Some times photographers here might be uncertain or curious in what a retoucher could actually do with their prized images.  Therefore, sometimes a test is desired.

Not at all. If a photographer is uncertain or "curious" in such way, that simply means the photographer does not understand the process. It is the job of the client to give the art direction and not something the retoucher should invent or be tested for. So expecting to receive the input from the vendor is simply irrelevant. The vendor can possibly help with that if he is explicitly asked to but it is surely not his job to do something like "here is a random image, let's see what you can do". Without direction there is no way to reach proper destination, it becomes a lottery.

Retouchers and photographers here at Mayhem are often at Very Different Creative, Technical or Business levels.  Its hard to tell... there are beginners here and some very talented photographers, retouchers and models too.

Main reason ill give is this:   Many photographers shoot their models for free... many dont even have a budget to be able to pay their models... and they usually do not have a budget for retouchers either as well!   With Photography just being a hobby or a passion... there isnt usually a lot of "Cash Flow" generated by a GWC,  or a weekend warrior,  or someone who is doing this for his favorite hobby.

If a photographer has a commercial opportunity...as opposed to a shoot done for love...then he may have a business customer who has given him a budget to work within.  If the budget is big enough,  then he will have some money to pay a model, and maybe he might even have some money built in to get his images retouched for the paying clients project.

But the way the other parties do business is surely not a concern of the retoucher and not a valid reason the retoucher to work that way too.

Sometimes a photographer will pay for a retoucher if he doesnt think he does a great job himself... but if the quote comes back just a little bit high...or the process has any annoying or undesired bumps in it... then the inquiry to the retoucher gets dropped like a hot potato.  If the reply comes back a bit too pricey to pay out of his own pocket... or if it is complicated in any way... then all the photographer wants to do is to get back to his own life...and there is almost no time in todays over-busy world to write a polite "No Thank You Because" note back to the retoucher unfortunately.  This kind of "No Courtesy Reply" is fairly common in many areas of society and business today.  Yes, many times there is no reply back after an inquiry.   Would it be nice to get a reply??? YES!  For me,  its probably only 3 out of 10 that might get back.

Sorry, it is difficult to understand. Are you saying that you would reply only 3 out of 10 times because you are so extremely busy that a few seconds are too pricey to answer to the person who spent a few hours to do something for you for free? She is not asking for per-pixel analysis of the image, just a short positive or negative feedback, a human attitude. I am just wondering because you obviously found the time for this short lecture

Mayhem is not known for being a paid, commercial, or business site for models, photographers or for many retouchers.  If you want money or good business communication and reliable interactions...then a commercial, business, agency, pro commercial photographer site would be a great place to hang out.  Theres actual money and returned e-mails at a commercial based site usually.

Examples?

anchev wrote:
The vendor can possibly help with that if he is explicitly asked to but it is surely not his job to do something like "here is a random image, let's see what you can do". Without direction there is no way to reach proper destination, it becomes a lottery.

I agree completely - I know that if I said to a retoucher 'here's an image, let's see what you can do with it' I'm almost certain to be disappointed. Pretty much guaranteed in fact.

I can perhaps see some merit in a retoucher doing a quick work-up for a new client taking into account the photographer or client's intended direction for the image. But if there's an established relationship in place already, work-ups ought to be chargeable too.

"Would it be nice to get a reply??? YES!  For me,  its probably only 3 out of 10 that might get back."

What I intended by my statement was:   that in my own business experience I get less and less of these very nice  "Courtesy Replies" from customers or inquirers thanking me for the quote... and then telling me WHY they didnt want to proceed further.

SOME clients Are busy these days... and if they are not interested...they dont often  take extra time out of their busy day to tell me WHY they want to opt out... Sometimes they just disappear!  Just like in the OP's case.   

Obviously, It would be helpful for Me to hear back again from potential clients...so I could further refine my expectations or better fine tune my business model.  But in the last 7 years... I feel that leaving a discussion...is the way it seems to be trending.  So I told the OP..."dont feel so bad."  Many times the customer does not want to engage further and spend extra time telling her WHY they didnt want to hire her.  Its embarrassing for some... and some others have other things to do that day... and they cant find the time or desire to explain why they didnt want to hire someone. Its awkward too.  Most people would rather just move on.     Models sometimes just disappear too!   It happens to us all.  We just have to shake off the dust...and move on to other prospects ourselves.

anchev wrote:
Good example, Steve. Exactly what I was saying: testing makes sense only for things which the portfolio doesn't show.

But still what you explain is quite different. It is rather a TF work, not a test in the sense doing something just to be tested the outcome of which may be nothing. So if initially you have been offered a test as TF, you already had received something - a good image for your portfolio. It is not a wasted time, not even potentially.

Yes, sometimes I use test images in my portfolio, if these are good (in terms of photography, make-up, etc).

Few days ago, I told to a photographer how I work and I showed him an example of this type of work. D&B which took me btw 2-3 hours. It seems that was too much for him (I haven't given him a price), because he didn't give an answer back.

Steven Burnette Retouch wrote:
You really should not feel pressured to just randomly do free tests for every single photographer in hopes of getting work, that's like trying to hit a bullseye on a dart board in the dark. I would not say to "Never" test, but I would advise on being very selective with who you provide a test to.


Here is one example of where a test made sense in my professional experience:

A photographer contacted me and was interested in working together, but he was considering me for some of his luxury car images and asked for samples of car retouching. I had no recent car specific work to share at that time, so I agreed to do a test on one of his images, so he could feel more confident working with me. Before offering to do the test I checked out his work and genuinely loved the work that he did with vehicle photography (In my mind I was thinking "I will do this test to show what I have to offer and whether or not he decides to work with me, I will have a nice sample that can benefit my portfolio"). Fortunately, he liked the results and became a client. The point is that you can test if it makes sense, but not from a point of desperation.

Focus on continually producing quality work that you can be proud of and actively making your work easily availably for viewing (website, blog, social media, etc.) to those who are seeking your talent.

It takes time to make a connection with compatible clients, but don't become too discouraged or give up.

Yes, it makes sense to do a test if you don't have the specific work in your portfolio. But, for example, even if I have a portfolio with beauty or fashion images, most of them want from me to do a test....
That's why I'm wondering if I'm wrong with something... or my portfolio is poor (low level or whatever you want to call this) in making someone to give an idea about my skills...

anchev wrote:
Also remember there are thousands of photographers here who repeatedly express their negative attitude to retouchers, especially "the East European block", so that may be part of the attitude you experienced. Unfortunately.

That is unfortunate, but not entirely without justification. Many of the retouchers who have sent me friend requests have either abandoned their accounts or were kicked off MM. Clearly, there are scammers.

Having said that, I wonder if any of the european retouchers who advertise on MM have considered expanding their services to include high end, personalized digital printing services.

George Holroyd wrote:
That is unfortunate, but not entirely without justification. Many of the retouchers who have sent me friend requests have either abandoned their accounts or were kicked off MM. Clearly, there are scammers.

What makes you think it is only retouchers? Photographers are no different? This very thread confirms it.

Having said that, I wonder if any of the european retouchers who advertise on MM have considered expanding their services to include high end, personalized digital printing services.

I am not sure what you mean by retoucher expanding services to printing services. Personally I have worked many times on images for art galleries, printed books and photography exhibitions.

As for "high end" - this is really just a pop marketing term. Thousands of people use it just to say "I am better than the rest, so give me your money" or "let me be your guru and teach you". Others use it to say "I have seen these particular videos and I can repeat what I saw, so I am above average". And that silly business goes on and on. Shallow marketing language.

anchev wrote:
What makes you think it is only retouchers? Photographers are no different? This very thread confirms it.

I don't think that, nor did I intend to imply that it is only retouchers, I merely cited recent experience.

anchev wrote:
I am not sure what you mean by retoucher expanding services to printing services. Personally I have worked many times on images for art galleries, printed books and photography exhibitions.

I was unaware of any retouchers with printing services on offer. You may in fact be an outlier, I don't know. Call it ignorance on my part, if you like.

anchev wrote:
As for "high end" - this is really just a pop marketing term. Thousands of people use it just to say "I am better than the rest, so give me your money" or "let me be your guru and teach you". Others use it to say "I have seen these particular videos and I can repeat what I saw, so I am above average". And that silly business goes on and on. Shallow marketing language.

Would you prefer the term "high quality"? I think you understand that equipment and materials are a factor, to say nothing of demonstrating the ability operate the equipment and to optimally combine those materials.

Frankly, your demeanor doesn't motivate me to look further into the services you offer.

George Holroyd wrote:

That is unfortunate, but not entirely without justification. Many of the retouchers who have sent me friend requests have either abandoned their accounts or were kicked off MM. Clearly, there are scammers.

That someone abandons an account does not mean they were a "scammer".

George Holroyd wrote:
Frankly, your demeanor doesn't motivate me to look further into the services you offer.

I am not offering anything to you George. I never have. Take it easy and mind the forum rules please.
Thanks.

anchev wrote:
I am not offering anything to you George. I never have. Take it easy and mind the forum rules please.
Thanks.

I recognize that English is a second language for you, so let me explain that your continued use of the phrase "take it easy" reads as condescending. This isn't the first time you've issued veiled threats to mind the rules. Why don't you be mindful of the fact you are not a moderator here?

a k mac wrote:
I would recommend you research what Natalia Taffarel has written about these matters. She has some very sound advice, which is well worth reading.

But following an opinion, a guidance, success-recipes, "right way of doing things" etc is absolutely unnecessary and harmful.

http://sublimworld-blog.tumblr.com/post … ys-biggest

"3. How did you approached your clients when you were starting your career?

Email, I sent around 3000 emails worldwide and got like 2, maybe 3 answers. I kept doing that every month, till I had enough work."

No wonder people following the authority of that person are the same ones who spam everyone around and out of MM. I don't see how this can be a sound advice. It is rather an irresponsible thing to say in public because people follow authority blindly. Things like these are hurting the whole retouching business.

a k mac wrote:
As I was mentioning to Oana....

Sorry for participating, I hope you don't mind that this is a forum