Philip Brown wrote:

Sounds kinda like saying, if an actor in a stage performance performs like a block of wood, it's all the Director's fault.

I find working with absolute newbies  (only a few shoots, if not the first)  fun.They are nervous as hell and trying their best...
I try to put them at ease by telling them its ok to be a fool in front of the camera. Sometimes I get in my role as director by imitating Otto Preminger in a german accent and strut around barking orders...amazing how at ease they get... we have lots of fun  hundreds if not thousands of bad  pictures  lol and a commitment to do more shoots... of course some end up  walking in the shows sometimes I get a wink at the end of the runway when they see me.

the lonely photographer wrote:

Yes, while recently attempting to direct a new Model I humorously handed Her the Camera and offered to switch places.  This made Her burst into laughter which immediately broke the ice.  She was aok from there on out.

Philip Brown wrote:
Sounds kinda like saying, if an actor in a stage performance performs like a block of wood, it's all the Director's fault.

Well, actually it would be.

Models don't automatically know what You want them to do.

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Models don't automatically know what You want them to do.

right. that being said.. while a model may not do exactly what the photographer is looking for.. a good model will still make what she is doing look good. at least from an expression standpoint, wouldnt you agree?

Philip Brown wrote:
right. that being said.. while a model may not do exactly what the photographer is looking for.. a good model will still make what she is doing look good. at least from an expression standpoint, wouldnt you agree?

Depends on what your goal is...Philip Brown...most models I shoot have no defined end game... so we shoot till they find their niche  sort of like pouring water on the ground and see where it goes...thats how I work. I'm sure a lot  of people here will start a rant about my methods and criticize me  and get in my face about it...I still get my shots..and the models stil wait in line to shoot... so I guess they are ok with it... I shoot newbie for catalogs and look books... the designers are there...some are former models giving tips and posing examples that are standard looks... the newbies will get  it done cause they don't have a penalty for messing up...we cast for fashion shows and pros show up as well... still they need direction from the show director..So if you have a project that is well defined  a pro might be a better bet... but a newbie if you spend time to help her will offer great pictures as well

Philip Brown wrote:

Sounds kinda like saying, if an actor in a stage performance performs like a block of wood, it's all the Director's fault.

If I might Phil, cause I feel like you can use this tip.

The analogy sounds right but it doesn't apply. Even if you collaborate with the rest of your team on TFP as soon as the camera goes in your hand you should be firmly in charge for two reasons.

1. You are the only one that can actually see what is in the viewfinder. And some things that look good live don't look good in pictures. You have to help them break the ideas of what they've formed as a good picture from their selfie habits. You have to tell them what to do. Because even if she looks absolutely fine in the studio lights only you know how the flash is falling.

2. Only you know what you want, and that can change. Even if you set the goal as a team only you know if you are going the right way. Sometimes the shot I end up with isn't the shot that I started out to get because once we got going a better alternative presented itself.

I tend to make these changes in the spirit of the moment, to tap into that energy that is now present but wasn't present when we were planning.

You not being able to give direction means your shoot is basically a ship with no hand on the rudder. You may get to where you are going, you may even get somewhere better but it's up to the current, winds, tides, etc. It's better if you guide them even if your ability to do so is somewhat limited. Thats how you get better.

A great example is new models have poses that they love. Because they've shot great selfies that way. And they will bring out those same poses for you. But they do it working towards the camera which if you are shooting off camera flash may be away from the light. Most new models have never had to think about the camera and the light not being in the same place. Instruct them to work towards their light and you will move around them to get your shot.

To make it easier starting out I tell models something like this.

"The natural tendency when you hear an instruction is to start it. Please wait to hear the whole instruction so you don't move something I don't want moved. And also unless I say big in the instruction I typically only need small adjustments."

Another benefit is when you take charge they know you are asking for exactly what you want and they loosen up a lot faster in my experience.

the lonely photographer wrote:

Depends on what your goal is...Philip Brown...most models I shoot have no defined end game... so we shoot till they find their niche  sort of like pouring water on the ground and see where it goes...thats how I work. I'm sure a lot will start a rant about my methods and criticize and get in my face about it...I still get my shots..and the models stil wait in line to shoot... so I guess they are ok with it... I shoot newbie for catalogs and look books... the designers are there...some are former models giving tips and posing examples that are standard looks... the newbies will get  it done cause they don't have a penalty for messing up...we cast for fashion shows and pros show up as well... still they need direction from the show director..So if you have a project that is well defined  a pro might be a better bet... but a newbie if you spend time to help her will offer great pictures as well

Excellent analysis of what happens when working with newer models.  Ask a new model what she wants in images and most won't understand what you're asking.  Ask where they a new model wants go with their modeling and most will not have a defined answer.  Most haven't thought that far ahead.  They just want to see themself in pictures.

Eleven 11 Photography wrote:

If I might Phil, cause I feel like you can use this tip.

The analogy sounds right but it doesn't apply. Even if you collaborate with the rest of your team on TFP as soon as the camera goes in your hand you should be firmly in charge for two reasons.

1. You are the only one that can actually see what is in the viewfinder. And some things that look good live don't look good in pictures. You have to help them break the ideas of what they've formed as a good picture from their selfie habits. You have to tell them what to do. Because even if she looks absolutely fine in the studio lights only you know how the flash is falling.

2. Only you know what you want, and that can change. Even if you set the goal as a team only you know if you are going the right way. Sometimes the shot I end up with isn't the shot that I started out to get because once we got going a better alternative presented itself.

I tend to make these changes in the spirit of the moment, to tap into that energy that is now present but wasn't present when we were planning.

You not being able to give direction means your shoot is basically a ship with no hand on the rudder. You may get to where you are going, you may even get somewhere better but it's up to the current, winds, tides, etc. It's better if you guide them even if your ability to do so is somewhat limited. Thats how you get better.

A great example is new models have poses that they love. Because they've shot great selfies that way. And they will bring out those same poses for you. But they do it working towards the camera which if you are shooting off camera flash may be away from the light. Most new models have never had to think about the camera and the light not being in the same place. Instruct them to work towards their light and you will move around them to get your shot.

To make it easier starting out I tell models something like this.

"The natural tendency when you hear an instruction is to start it. Please wait to hear the whole instruction so you don't move something I don't want moved. And also unless I say big in the instruction I typically only need small adjustments."

Another benefit is when you take charge they know you are asking for exactly what you want and they loosen up a lot faster in my experience.

Bravo!  Great response and logic on the issue.  Most people don't grasp that the photographer is the one steering the project towards completion, keeping it going in the right direction.  I've met people who believe it all just happens when everyone shows up and the photographer begins firing away.

Yes, it is a collaborative process.  People here balk at pre-shoot meetings but that is when all the details are defined and the vision is explained.  Everyone has to understand the details and what their part is in the shoot, what's expected of them but it is the photographer who keeps it all rolling in the right direction.

Philip Brown wrote:

Sounds kinda like saying, if an actor in a stage performance performs like a block of wood, it's all the Director's fault.

Phil,

You would benefit from shadowing an established photographer and seeing how he/she runs a shoot.  It would actually be better if you could do this with a few, to see the differences in their styles.  Notice how much work goes into the planning phase of the shoot vice the actual shoot phase itself.  Good pre-shoot planning is whee all the wrinkles are worked out, not on set when to time to shoot.  Proactive gets you more than reactive.

From your questions, it appears you believe everything happens by magic once everyone arrives and the lens cap comes off.  That's far from the truth.

Todd Meredith wrote:

Bravo!  Great response and logic on the issue.  Most people don't grasp that the photographer is the one steering the project towards completion, keeping it going in the right direction.  I've met people who believe it all just happens when everyone shows up and the photographer begins firing away.

Yes, it is a collaborative process.  People here balk at pre-shoot meetings but that is when all the details are defined and the vision is explained.  Everyone has to understand the details and what their part is in the shoot, what's expected of them but it is the photographer who keeps it all rolling in the right direction.

It is true usually if a photographer works with a model one to one...I shoot with a large screen monitor during fashion shoots so  corrections can be made immediately while shooting. The models get instant feed back with hand  feet  face  etc.location poses.. even the pros get redirection,  because the designers are there directing them  sometimes we stop and redo the makeup and restyle the hair  because  it just dont feel right.....

the lonely photographer wrote:

It is true usually if a photographer works with a model one to one...I shoot with a large screen monitor during fashion shoots so  corrections can be made immediately while shooting. The models get instant feed back with hand  feet  face  etc.location poses.. even the pros get redirection,  because the designers are there directing them  sometimes we stop and redo the makeup and restyle the hair  because  it just dont feel right.....

I've never worked like that but can definitely understand the value in the monitor.  Being able to provide that almost instant feedback must both instill confidence in the model and provide excellent results in the final product.  The model experiences someone seeing and changing things for the better almost immediately and those receiving the final product seeing the instant enhancement due to the process.

Do you use a second/assistant to keep an eye on the monitor for you and alert you to issues or do you do it all yourself?

Todd Meredith wrote:

I've never worked like that but can definitely understand the value in the monitor.  Being able to provide that almost instant feedback must both instill confidence in the model and provide excellent results in the final product.  The model experiences someone seeing and changing things for the better almost immediately and those receiving the final product seeing the instant enhancement due to the process.

Do you use a second/assistant to keep an eye on the monitor for you and alert you to issues or do you do it all yourself?

Usually the modeling coach or designer speaks up   or if I'm by myself I have a second monitor I peek at  It helps if I need to change up the lighting as I go because sometimes the model moves out of the lights coverage area.  Hard to visualize flash too so sometimes I can flag or scrim out an area or possibly adjust exposures and lighting intensity   things you really can't do with some strobes  especially with old speedotron units  its all 1/2 or 1/4 power this is where the investment in expensive lighting pays off...still a pain in the ass the profoto remotes can dial power up or down but can't tell you where your power settings  are  There is a USB stick Profoto made that controls lighting for various monolights  but I don't know if it shows you the power on the software. real cool if you have lots of D1's you can set various staging ratios  and call them up later and repeat the set up..NOT cheap

Garry k wrote:
I know if I were a Pro Shooter photographing commercial or editorial work I would work with a monitor and of course a team too



But as a Hobbyist Its generally just Me , My Rebel and the Model

So I rely heavily on the cameras flip out view screen to study every element of how the shoot is progessing . Lighting , Composition . Posing etc .....

But sometimes the view screen fails you ie when its too bright outside to even see it

Shot these photos relying solely on the cameras histogram for reference

HAH   I am a hobbyist    I shoot for fun   all that stuff is for the clothing we design and sell,, theres no freakin money in photography   I do it cause I can't afford one!!

Todd Meredith wrote:
Phil,

You would benefit from shadowing an established photographer and seeing how he/she runs a shoot.  It would actually be better if you could do this with a few, to see the differences in their styles.  Notice how much work goes into the planning phase of the shoot vice the actual shoot phase itself..

that is something I would love to do

Todd Meredith wrote:
.  I've met people who believe it all just happens when everyone shows up and the photographer begins firing away .

Thats usually how my shoots tend to go

of course getting the makeup done beforehand and finding some interesting clothes are necessary

PHP-Photography wrote:
Isn't directing the model your job ?

Her every pose? When I'm paying for a shoot? No. Because part of what I'm paying for is the model's experience -- her ability to pose. Directing her is not something I want to be spending 90% of the shoot doing. If I have to say "Put all your weight on your right leg. Now bend the left one. Now arch your back. Now put your hands above your head. Twist your torso towards me. Turn your head more to the right" for EVERY SINGLE SHOT, I'll get in a tiny fraction of the shots that I would with an experienced model.

I'll still direct an experienced model from time to time, but it's usually to give her a starting point -- and then she takes it from there. Within 5 minutes I have 50 shots, most of which are possible keepers. That's a large part of why it's worth paying her when she's experienced and good at posing.

Now, if a model is paying me to develop her portfolio, then absolutely I'll direct her -- she's paying me for my experience, and part of that is my ability to help her pose well. Same goes for TFP.

Even if I were willing to pay for a model who is very new to posing, most just can't be taught how to do good emotions / facial expressions. I can point her in the right direction, but it seems that's something that either takes longer to learn, or maybe some just aren't capable of doing good expressions nearly as well as others.

Rachel Jay wrote:
and cute Snapchat filters

I've yet to see any pics with a cute snapchat filter.

IMHO pics of women with dog or rabbit ears and noses don't constitute "cute"