Photographer
ISH_
Posts: 818
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Let me start by saying Chen Man is hands down my favorite photographer. Her use of color is 2nd to none 'imo' and her hyper-realistic almost 3d aesthetic makes me curious. I've seen similar 3d-ish style editing execute though D&B and different grading techniques, but i'm curious what your thoughts are. How do you think this aesthetic is achieved?
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
No idea how but her work is stunning... superb balance of image and post production.
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 836
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
She's a photographer, not a fact she retouching her images. Could be different retoucher for every image. retoucher can make a big difference.
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Tulack wrote: She's a photographer, not a fact she retouching her images. Could be different retoucher for every image. retoucher can make a big difference.
All the information leads to she doing her own work including CG Also it says she used to rely a lot more in photoshop than she does now
Photographer
Grin Without a Cat
Posts: 456
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Tulack wrote: She's a photographer, not a fact she retouching her images. Could be different retoucher for every image. retoucher can make a big difference.
Why are you posting Annie Leibovitz images to illustrate a point about Chen Man? I am confused...
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
I'm on the phone and I JUST saw the images. Wondering the same as the above poster
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
Grin Without a Cat wrote: Why are you posting Annie Leibovitz images to illustrate a point about Chen Man? I am confused... My question too.
Retoucher
Beth F PDX
Posts: 69
Portland, Oregon, US
I was thinking the same thing. What does Annie Leibovitz have to do with this thread. I don't think Chen man has any crazy secrets. In regards to the "3d effect" I just think she has wonderfully refined lighting skills and is knowledgeable and selective about her dodging and burning techniques. Start with makeup. She loves good make up and it shows. Don't overlook how the pre production can greatly aid the finished product. And she knows how to light man. Even the photos shes done with more natural light are still wonderfully lit. Shadows and highlights create depth. And she (or her retoucher I don't know) is good at continuing and accentuating them in Post. I know that wasn't super specific and it seems simple. But it isn't the techniques that are the difficult part, it is the execution that sets one image apart from another. I can't really speak on that since I haven't seen the raw. but my guess is that she started with a well lit photo to begin with.
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
Beth Furumasu wrote: I was thinking the same thing. What does Annie Leibovitz have to do with this thread. I don't think Chen man has any crazy secrets. In regards to the "3d effect" I just think she has wonderfully refined lighting skills and is knowledgeable and selective about her dodging and burning techniques. Start with makeup. She loves good make up and it shows. Don't overlook how the pre production can greatly aid the finished product. And she knows how to light man. Even the photos shes done with more natural light are still wonderfully lit. Shadows and highlights create depth. And she (or her retoucher I don't know) is good at continuing and accentuating them in Post. I know that wasn't super specific and it seems simple. But it isn't the techniques that are the difficult part, it is the execution that sets one image apart from another. I can't really speak on that since I haven't seen the raw. but my guess is that she started with a well lit photo to begin with. Yep. Start with a good image. Then, make it better. That's pretty obviously what's going on here, to me.
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 836
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
Grin Without a Cat wrote: Why are you posting Annie Leibovitz images to illustrate a point about Chen Man? I am confused... Why are you talking about Annie Leibovitz? I was talking about retoucher. It doesn't matter Leibovitz or Chen Man. They both can use the same retoucher, and all this wonderful colors has nothing to do with both of them.
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 836
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
Natalia_Taffarel wrote: Wondering the same as the above poster Answering the same as to the above poster.
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 836
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
Alabaster Crowley wrote: My question too. My answer to you too.
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 836
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
Beth Furumasu wrote: I was thinking the same thing. You have something brown on your nose.
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
If you want guidance on how to get certain results, you will have to start with specific photos. Chen Man has many different styles and only a few involve heavy retouching. Mostly its just great talent in front and behind the camera.
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 836
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
Loki Studio wrote: Chen Man has many different styles and only a few involve heavy retouching. Mostly its just great talent in front and behind the camera. Exactly my point. Many different styles means no style and she definitely has one. Means it's many different retouchers. Magazines doesn't hire photographers to do hair, makeup, photograph, edit and retouch image.
Retoucher
Beth F PDX
Posts: 69
Portland, Oregon, US
Well that was rude. I do not appreciate your response for the record. You are incredibly deluded to think it's all retouching.
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
Tulack wrote: You have something brown on your nose. And you're consistently rude and unhelpful.
Photographer
Tulack
Posts: 836
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US
How does repeating something said twice before you, making you helpful? Unless it's barking after big dogs syndrome.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Tulack wrote: Why are you talking about Annie Leibovitz? I was talking about retoucher. It doesn't matter Leibovitz or Chen Man. They both can use the same retoucher, and all this wonderful colors has nothing to do with both of them. If you think it doesn't matter who shoots what or that the color is some magical post production trickery you may want to pursue a new hobby
Retoucher
Beth F PDX
Posts: 69
Portland, Oregon, US
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Tulack wrote: ... Many different styles means no style and she definitely has one. I was wondering about that too....especially because i got so many styles too :p .... a feel, or recurring emotion, or rytm, or view is a style too....not a technical style, but a more narrative... Herman www.hermanvangestel.com
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Tulack wrote: Exactly my point. Many different styles means no style and she definitely has one. Means it's many different retouchers. Magazines doesn't hire photographers to do hair, makeup, photograph, edit and retouch image. She has been evolving. Her latest work has a style inspite being directed by clients. She says she retouched herself. You don't believe her? I have no reasons to doubt her. Also, the quality doesn't come from the retoucher.
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
AJScalzitti wrote: If you think it doesn't matter who shoots what or that the color is some magical post production trickery you may want to pursue a new hobby With high end composite advertising work everything is top post production, special composite work with matte painting and CGI . Magical colors are also post production. There are no magical files straight from camera and almost any photographer with average knowledge of photography can shoot file with 2 soft boxes over studio solid background and to prepare that file for composite work. 2 soft boxes , tripod, ISO 100, f8 or f9 , 1/125or 1/160 , white or gray solid background and just press the button. The only difference later is which top retouchers or retouching agencies work on files. Behind all "these successful " photographers are top retouchers which are responsible for miracles, because they have budget to pay top retouchers which make that level of photography. It is the same and with film/video industry, all movies are over green screen studio background and later everything is post production and video composite work with matte painting and amazing colors. Best ST
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
ST Retouch wrote: With high end composite advertising work everything is top post production, special composite work with matte painting and CGI . Magical colors are also post production. There are no magical files straight from camera and almost any photographer with average knowledge of photography can shoot file with 2 soft boxes over studio solid background and to prepare that file for composite work. 2 soft boxes , tripod, ISO 100, f8 or f9 , 1/125or 1/160 , white or gray solid background and just press the button. The only difference later is which top retouchers or retouching agencies work on files. Behind all "these successful " photographers are top retouchers which are responsible for miracles, because they have budget to pay top retouchers which make that level of photography. It is the same and with film/video industry, all movies are over green screen studio background and later everything is post production and video composite work with matte painting and amazing colors. Best ST such a pessimist ...pity you don't believe it's possible to deliver a good base miracle....you diminish photographers to soft-box-robots....btw soft boxes are just for fillers :p Herman www.hermanvangestel.com
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Herman van Gestel wrote: such a pessimist ...pity you don't believe it's possible to deliver a good base miracle....you diminish photographers to soft-box-robots....btw soft boxes are just for fillers :p Herman www.hermanvangestel.com I am professional photographer so I know what I speak, and yes soft boxes are for composite work , because later in composite work retouchers play with shadows and higlights and make scenery. Soft boxes are standards for preparing files for composite work. When you prepare file in studio for composite work you shoot basic files , you don't play with lighting, shadows or similar . Best ST
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
ST Retouch wrote: I am professional photographer so I know what I speak, and yes soft boxes are for composite work , because later in composite work retouchers play with shadows and higlights and make scenery. Soft boxes are standards for preparing files for composite work . Best ST so you want to give every whack with a camera the feeling they are top notch photographers as long as they use softboxes :p...that's sad...
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Herman van Gestel wrote: so you want to give every whack with a camera the feeling they are top notch photographers as long as they use softboxes :p...that's sad... Yes, sad. That's exactly how I read it. Have you noticed it's always: if I can't do it with a camera and light it can't be done?
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Natalia_Taffarel wrote: Yes, sad. That's exactly how I read it. Have you noticed it's always: if I can't do it with a camera and light it can't be done? yep...apparently their own limits is the truth...
Photographer
Bryan Benoit
Posts: 2106
Miami, Florida, US
Herman van Gestel wrote: so you want to give every whack with a camera the feeling they are top notch photographers as long as they use softboxes :p...that's sad... Finally the secret formula... I am going to get me a softbox right now and become the best photographer ever. And as a bonus I have a new motto... "If I can't do it then it can't be done"
Retoucher
Beth F PDX
Posts: 69
Portland, Oregon, US
I would just like to point out that in every photo I looked at where you can see a catch light, they have all been round. So we can start over by saying she is doing something else with her lighting than simply using two soft boxes. No one was saying that those photos are straight out of camera. We are saying that you can't polish a turd, she is starting off with a well light photo and then retouching it. but there probably isn't some special super secret technique to it. She just has an eye for where light should and shouldn't fall. And has a knowledge if how to get the colors she wants. Dodging and burning is a simple concept, many just don't have a handle on where to dodge and burn. But unfortunately, there's no tutorial for that because every photo is different . and every model is different. And every location is different.
Retoucher
Beth F PDX
Posts: 69
Portland, Oregon, US
most of her works are not composites so why are you talking about composites st retouch? This is a different type of shooting style all together.
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Beth Furumasu wrote: most of her works are not composites so why are you talking about composites st retouch? This is a different type of shooting style all together. That's all he talks about The only business is composite and CG work
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Beth Furumasu wrote: most of her works are not composites so why are you talking about composites st retouch? This is a different type of shooting style all together. I didn't speak about her work I can see there are no composites . Her work is very nice with very nice retouching . I just wrote that post production is main thing for great results, for amazing colors, balance, effects etc, no matter if is composite image or real location. I gave example with advertising level of work and with film production to explain some things - there are no amazing results straight from camera. For serious work each file needs serious retouching to achieve these great results. Best ST
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17824
El Segundo, California, US
Moderator Warning!
Tulack wrote: You have something brown on your nose. You need to review the forum rules.
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Sorry, but specifically this image i can't see somethíng outstanding regarding postproduction...have been returning a couple of times...this seems just like a reasonable production... I'm i missing something? Herman www.hermanvangestel.com
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Herman van Gestel wrote: Sorry, but specifically this image i can't see somethíng outstanding regarding postproduction...this seems just like a reasonable production... I'm i missing something? Herman www.hermanvangestel.com You have right about that image. That image from OP post is simple model shoot over solid studio background without retouching or just couple of clone/healing brush tool with maybe couple of D&B steps and with just darker curves .
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
I even doubt if it was actually a white bg, i don't even see a bounce in the to-be expected-shiny parts of the goo...except if the proportions of white in the background would be less than .5 stop....but it would be still affecting shiny parts...the separation of the hair is not very well... (could be because of too much compression, but still) Herman www.hermanvangestel.com
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 393
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
Herman van Gestel wrote: I even doubt if it was actually a white bg, i don't even see a bounce in the to-be expected-shiny parts of the goo...except if the proportions of white in the background would be less than .5 stop....but it would be still affecting shiny parts...the separation of the hair is not very well... (could be because of too much compression, but still) Herman www.hermanvangestel.com Yes I see, but results on hair are maybe because she has mud or chocolate ( whatever is it) on hair and on body . I would agree with you and say that this is shoot over some medium/darker gray background , I can feel studio lighting on file and later original studio background is replaced with new lighter background . Also it is possible and that shot was over white background , model was 1-2 meters in front of the white background and that setting was 1/160 with f13, f14 maybe more with 2 soft boxes and no lighting behind model so that's the reason why they are not some highlights on skin edges or any expected-shiny parts. It can be both Best
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
ST Retouch wrote: Yes I see, but results on hair are maybe because she has mud or chocolate ( whatever is it) on hair and on body . I would agree with you and say that this is shoot over some medium/darker gray background , I can feel studio lighting on file and later original studio background is replaced with new lighter background . Also it is possible and that shot was over white background , model was 1-2 meters in front of the white background and that setting was 1/160 with f13, f14 maybe more with 2 soft boxes and no lighting behind model so that's the reason why they are not some highlights on skin edges or any expected-shiny parts. It can be both Best depends on the distance of the lamp in front in front in relationship to the background...but still white needs to be 0 or more stops lighter to become white...from 2 stops onwards difference it starts to reflect on the skin.... ..only highly reflective surfaces would be still reflecting it, so looking at the "reflection" of the goo the background must be indeed a dark colour. ...that was quite some masking then
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