Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

I think whatever the people involved agree to is fine. It's getting everyone to agree that's the real trick! I don't think it's taking advantage. We all have to start somewhere.

DraganSutic wrote:
Would you be ok signing a commercial release so the photographer could also use the images from the shoot?

No problem there! If for trade for some raw images in return with releases of equal value. Its like splitting the deal. It would have to be with someone that can give you that quality as well. And something I need.
Like there are a few things I am looking for right now that I need to complete a gallery for Art exhibitions. (for profit)

I'm also working on a book. If there is something that would contribute to the value.

Chain Reaction wrote:

I think whatever the people involved agree to is fine. It's getting everyone to agree that's the real trick! I don't think it's taking advantage. We all have to start somewhere.

What if the person you can clearly see isn't that educated in business? Would you educate them and then negotiate? Protect them from there ignorance?

Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

I think a lot of models do not understand the worth of a great commercial image and instead consider themselves as "done" with portfolio building once they get  a few, not so bad I want to scream, images up and do a few paid gigs.

The fact is to hire me to shoot for your portfolio you costs a lot of money. If I ever do TF I am not going to make as much money from a session, even in fine art print sales, as I would have if i charged you. Hell if you want images for anything other than your portfolio and you are hiring me it is at least $2000 (about twice the portfolio rate). So in a test you aren't going to even get as much as you would if you hired me, because the worth of the image is not above my normal price for shooting.

Since the majority of models do not want to pay photographers for the rights to images they might want to first really evaluate just how important they are in the scheme of things.

The best thing to do when contemplating a TF offer is to have a realistic sense of just how good you and your portfolio are (and how good the photographer is). If you are an international recognized name in the modeling community you have different options open to you then if you are just some girl who likes taking pretty photos. However, even the girl who likes taking pretty photos can get more rights if she is working with Mr. My Mom got me this camera last week and i want to take pretty pictures of girls with it.

Ask in the serious critique section if you need help figuring out just where you are in the pecking order.

Caitin   wrote:
You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

If you can find a photographer so stupid and inexperienced that he'll give away the RAWs and all rights to them, go for it.

Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

But the reason it drives you crazy is part of the answer too.

If Mario Testino was offering you 5 edited photos only to be used for self-promotion would you not book the next flight at your expense and recreate a scene from Planes, Trains and Automobiles to get there?

While 5 photos with full unlimited commercial usage or even shared copyright might be absolutely worthless if the deal is made with a photographer who doesn't have anything of value to offer.

Perceived value is just that. And only you can answer whether the Trade terms are favorable for you.

Caitin   wrote:

No problem there! If for trade for some raw images in return with releases of equal value. Its like splitting the deal. It would have to be with someone that can give you that quality as well. And something I need.
Like there are a few things I am looking for right now that I need to complete a gallery for Art exhibitions. (for profit)

I'm also working on a book. If there is something that would contribute to the value.

Then it seems like a fair deal to me. If everyone get's equal value and treatment and  agrees beforehand that's the definition of good business.

Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Perceived value is just that. And only you can answer whether the Trade terms are favorable for you.

And anyone can always just say no.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

This "Trade For" something stuff really didn't become as popular of a thing until digital photography became popular.  I used to do some variations of it, shooting in trade for some prints ... for example.  Often times I would do "testing" where the model got nothing.  I'd even get a "film fee" for many of those shoots.  It helped that I also worked at photo labs part time so I could get discounts. 

What do I think of the practice of trading?  I believe it can be very useful for people starting out on both sides of the camera!  Shooting in trade is useful for me in "testing" the working relationship I may have with new models.  I also use "trade" in working with more advanced models who are willing to forgo their fee in a mutual exchange of having use of a selection of the images that we split for use on both our websites.  It's a choice that is negotiated. Simple as that!

Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

1) People get "pounded left and right for TF" here because that's mainly what this site is. 

2) Pick your photographers carefully.  Five edited photos from an amazing photographer and team will pay off much more than 100 shoddy ones taken with a shoddy photographer. 

3) llamas need great and up to date photos for their portfolios.  Those images ideally lead a llama to paid work.  That is the benefit and worth.   Every good llama trades.  Some trade more selectively than others.

IMO, llamas never need RAWs.  Only a fool photographer or amateur who doesn't value his work or understand the value of his work will give these away AND the copyright.  llamas never have permission to sell or publish the photographer's work, unless given permission by the photographer.

If you want to sell photos, become a photographer.

Caitin   wrote:
What if the person you can clearly see isn't that educated in business? Would you educate them and then negotiate? Protect them from there ignorance?

Educate them and then negotiate?  What is to educate them about?  Either they think what I am offering is worthwhile to them or they don't.  I cannot determine what value my photos have to someone else - only they can know that.  I am here to shoot with those that find my terms acceptable.  They accept and we shoot or they decline and I move on.  I don't try to "educate" others as to what I think my photos ought to be worth to them.

Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?

Trade for or time for. - (Usually for images.)

Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

If that drives you crazy, then don't accept shoot offers where that's the compensation offered.  Different people have different needs.  Don't accept offers that do not meet your needs.

Caitin   wrote:
Really how much is that worth?

That can vary.  I've worked with a few musicians for example, that needed some promo shots and felt getting images for their promotional use they didn't have to pay for was a great deal indeed.  More experienced models may place little value on such images.  Again, Only accept offers you feel are worth your time.

Caitin   wrote:
You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

I think most photographers will never provide models with RAW images and for good reason.  They also are unlikely to give unlimited usage of images for a trade shoot.

I think models who demand RAW images and exclusive rights from trade shoots, will have a difficult time booking trade shoots.

Caitin   wrote:
Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

Sort of, but not in a negative way.   Newbie models who have crappy portfolios will benefit more from TF work, so it makes sense to hit them up while TF still benefits and interests them.  It also makes sense for them to accept TF as a way to gain experience and improve their portfolio without having to spend money.

Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

There are photographers who can produce ONE finished image that is worth more, even at web resolution, than 500 raw images from most of us.

And, there are models who are, actually, getting a steal with one retouched web image from a decent photographer, and others who I'd be delighted to give as many as I could make time to finish off, in whatever format they asked.

We are NOT interchangeable, on either side of the camera.

Caitin   wrote:

No problem there! If for trade for some raw images in return with releases of equal value.

You do realize you need software to process raw images, right? If you don't have the software you can't even open them.

Sarah Lynn Modeling wrote:
I've gotten burned so many times by TF shoots over the years that I've had to set guidelines.  I got tired of having to bug photographers for months on end about sending me photos, and then when they do it's like 3 very low resolution photos that aren't even all that good (or at least wouldn't have been my choices out of all the photos).  So from now on I have a written agreement for TF shoots that:
1) I receive proofs of the photos to review within 2 weeks of the shoot.
2) From the photos, I get to choose 6 which can either be edited by the photographer or just sent to me as-is
3) The photographer sends me those 6 photos 2 weeks from the time I give him or her my choices. 
4)  The 6 images I receive are high resolution
5) I sign a release form basically saying that the photos won't be abused.

Now, many of you will probably say my above guidelines are ridiculous and that no photographer would agree to that.  But the thing is, photographers do agree to it.  I've been modeling for a decade now, I don't need to do TF.  However, if there happens to be a really good photographer, or the photographer is a personal friend of mine, and I feel I can benefit from just having low res images or only being give a few photos, then I waive these guidelines.

I think your guidelines are ridiculous & I would never agree to them.

Just my thoughts ~ MR

Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

OP, "assuming" you've already taken a "realistic" view of your own "imagery" value.  Then I'm sure you have an idea of your expected so called "tfp" value realistic or not.  So, regardless of the number of edits, image size and or release said photographer may have provided... just be thankful you got something without paying $ for them.  Also, expecting trade for "raw" files is simply foolish!

edit: quality 20yr old, sexy, 5'9+, playboy, maxim, SI type model... maybe worthy of trade for "raw" files to some.   But, what do I know.


Good luck

A-M-P wrote:
I only offer 2-3 photos  so say what you want. But my clients would pay a lot for those same 3 pics with same rights so if I offer TF than  it's value is the same as if I had charged a client.

The value of the photo to a commercial client may be based on how much money they can make using that photo to promote their goods and services.  The same can be said if that client is a model if they are using the photo to seek paid work.  However, I don't think you can assume that your work has the same value to a hobby model (for example) as it may to a commercial client.

If someone agrees to do a TF* shoot then you can only conclude that they believe the results (whether that be the resulting photos, the learning, the experience, the networking) will be worth their time and effort - that does not mean they would pay what a commercial client may for the same photo.

Caitin   wrote:
What if the person you can clearly see isn't that educated in business? Would you educate them and then negotiate? Protect them from there ignorance?

The probelm there is how should I educate them? Should I mentor them on what I think is best for them? Probably not. I would offer them what I believe would be a fair deal and let them decide for themselves. We aren't all cut from the same mold. What might be right for one is not always best for all.

John Allan wrote:
TF has no standard meaning except its acronym 'Trade For'. It's not any kind of industry term. It appears to have its derivation with Internet hobbyists.
That's why I don't use it. If I'm testing, then I use the correct street-level term 'test'. 99% of the llamas or other team members that are at the level I'm interested in collaborating with, understand the term and its standard meaning.

Of course the Internet and these forums just love to redefine long standing terms to fit individual whims or what they think it should mean.

There will certainly be a contribution from someone(s) in this thread stating that since TF has no standard meaning, that you have to surround it with all these formal agreements of specifics. This is exactly why the professional world defines and subsequently uses specific words which have a standard meaning, which everyone knows what it means operating in the professional environment. Those who are new and don't yet, get a quick primer. Then no need for a lengthy 'what does the term mean to you - what is our agreement' discussion.
But of course that's too straight-forward for the tens of thousand of MM members who insist on the latitude to use their own personal terminology

That's very interesting you brought that up. I didn't hear the term until I starting venture into MM and CL. There are several other terms as well. And it seems that there is many definitions based on who you talk to.

Caitin   wrote:
That's very interesting you brought that up. I didn't hear the term until I starting venture into MM and CL. There are several other terms as well. And it seems that there is many definitions based on who you talk to.

Test and trade are two different terms.

Test is an industry term.

Trade is primarily an internet term.

Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

You can always decline these kinds of TF* offers.

Caitin   wrote:
If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Any deal between two consenting adults is none of my business.  If you can find people willing to agree to such terms, more power to you.

But "all rights" deals are a nightmare...

...  Since the copyright is assigned to the photographer by default, such an
     arrangement would have to be documented with a contract that both parties
     will sign.

...  I won't sign any legal document that wasn't written by a legal professional
     and that wasn't reviewed by my lawyer, making this arrangement
     very expensive.

...  Such a contract would have to cover lots of stuff, including (but not limited to):
     >>>  Who gets to write usage licenses?
     >>>  How are revenues shared between the parties?
     >>>  What if one party wants to write a license but the other party wants
            to veto it?
     >>>  What happens if one party doesn't like the way the other party edited
             or watermarked the pictures?
     >>>  How are other disputes resolved?
     >>>  What happens if one party dies?
     >>>  What happens if one party moves without informing the other?
     >>>  Who does the accounting?
     >>>  If someones sues over the image, which party handles it?
     >>>  If the image is used without permission, which party handles it?
     >>>  Can one party sell their interest in the image to a third party?
     >>>  What prevents a 3rd party from negotiating with both image owners,
            creating a situation where the partners are bidding against each other?
     >>>  Should the partnership be incorporated (e.g. an LLC), and if so, who
            pays the business license fee and pays the taxes?
   
So, bottom line:  I would never, never, never enter into a "shared rights" arrangement with a third party for any of my photos.