pbellamy wrote:
Such a shame that we live in an age where we become paranoid about the innocence of childhood.

I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with governments wanting to prevent child pornography from being distributed and profited from in their countries, and at the same time ending the sexual abuse of innocent children. I hardly call that paranoia.

A few weeks ago I flew to Israel from Thailand on El Al Israel, and before even leaving Bangkok I was patted down all over several times, was swabbed all over and tested for explosives, the contents of my handbag were rummaged through, my wallet was removed and every card, every coin, was examined and scanned. I was asked all manner of questions, including very probing and personal questions about my relationship with my (Israeli) boyfriend who I was travelling with....

And you know what, they find an average of three terrorists trying to enter Israel on their flights every month in this manner. So I didn't mind at all. Just like however irritating it might be being breath-tested by the police, that two minutes of your time takes hundreds of actual drink-drivers off the roads.

Sometimes you have to give up a few liberties in order to make the community safe, and particularly young children. If having a quick look at the photo albums on your laptop will help trace child pornographers and save the child from any further abuse and deprivation, then for christ's sake just put up with it.

-Jean- wrote:
I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with governments wanting to prevent child pornography from being distributed and profited from in their countries, and at the same time ending the sexual abuse of innocent children. I hardly call that paranoia.

If I can speak for him, I don't see where he said there was something wrong with governments wanting to prevent child pornography. He just said it's a shame that government's worthy efforts in that area have caused him to feel unable to take innocent photos of his young child nude.

-Jean- wrote:
Sometimes you have to give up a few liberties in order to make the community safe

That's the question we face now - do we really believe the words, "Live Free or Die" - or would we just rather not die - let's not worry so much about the Freedom part.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- attributed to Benjamin Franklin

Digital Vinyl wrote:
But what about private information that is not intended for anyone to see?

The article addresses that in the case of laptops by suggesting encrypted partitions

-Jean- wrote:

I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with governments wanting to prevent child pornography from being distributed and profited from in their countries, and at the same time ending the sexual abuse of innocent children. I hardly call that paranoia.

A few weeks ago I flew to Israel from Thailand on El Al Israel, and before even leaving Bangkok I was patted down all over several times, was swabbed all over and tested for explosives, the contents of my handbag were rummaged through, my wallet was removed and every card, every coin, was examined and scanned. I was asked all manner of questions, including very probing and personal questions about my relationship with my (Israeli) boyfriend who I was travelling with....

And you know what, they find an average of three terrorists trying to enter Israel on their flights every month in this manner. So I didn't mind at all. Just like however irritating it might be being breath-tested by the police, that two minutes of your time takes hundreds of actual drink-drivers off the roads.

Sometimes you have to give up a few liberties in order to make the community safe, and particularly young children. If having a quick look at the photo albums on your laptop will help trace child pornographers and save the child from any further abuse and deprivation, then for christ's sake just put up with it.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

The trouble is they find "child pornography" where there isn't any - and innocent people get treated like criminals.

The more you surrender your liberties, the less likely they will be returned to you - until the so-called Free Countries of the West resemble the very same repressive regimes that spawn Terrorism in the East!

-Jean- wrote:

I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with governments wanting to prevent child pornography from being distributed and profited from in their countries, and at the same time ending the sexual abuse of innocent children. I hardly call that paranoia.

A few weeks ago I flew to Israel from Thailand on El Al Israel, and before even leaving Bangkok I was patted down all over several times, was swabbed all over and tested for explosives, the contents of my handbag were rummaged through, my wallet was removed and every card, every coin, was examined and scanned. I was asked all manner of questions, including very probing and personal questions about my relationship with my (Israeli) boyfriend who I was travelling with....

And you know what, they find an average of three terrorists trying to enter Israel on their flights every month in this manner. So I didn't mind at all. Just like however irritating it might be being breath-tested by the police, that two minutes of your time takes hundreds of actual drink-drivers off the roads.

Sometimes you have to give up a few liberties in order to make the community safe, and particularly young children. If having a quick look at the photo albums on your laptop will help trace child pornographers and save the child from any further abuse and deprivation, then for christ's sake just put up with it.

Should have expected this on here...

I travel all over the world. I get searched all the time. I'm happy to do so.

Thanks for jumping to the conclusion that I was against this. I never stated that I was. I just stated that it's sad that when innocence is lost.

Great Diatribe!  Have a nice day...

-Jean- wrote:
Sometimes you have to give up a few liberties in order to make the community safe, and particularly young children. If having a quick look at the photo albums on your laptop will help trace child pornographers and save the child from any further abuse and deprivation, then for christ's sake just put up with it.

This is really bad thinking.  The few bad guys would just Fedex his DVD home or FTP to some remote server for latter retrieval and the majority of people will have their personal info on there laptop inspected.  This only gives the government more power over the people.  Folks, we are getting our freedom chipped away little by little.  It's so sad.

digital Artform wrote:

That's the question we face now - do we really believe the words, "Live Free or Die" - or would we just rather not die - let's not worry so much about the Freedom part.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- attributed to Benjamin Franklin

Great quote. Isnt it amazing how the founding fathers were so eminently more intelligent than politicians today.

Eric wrote:
Welcome to 1984.

thanks, big brother!  pass the cocaine and the geri curl!

gwc321 wrote:
Funny that customs and/or border patrol will stop a well-dressed law-abiding citizen and search his or her 17" Titanium Mac Book Pro...

Sorry but how can they possibly know that you're law-abiding until they check you?

gwc321 wrote:
Funny that customs and/or border patrol will stop a well-dressed law-abiding citizen and search his or her 17" Titanium Mac Book Pro, and on that same day, Hundreds, possibly thousands of illegal aliens will cross the border illegally into the U.S.

I don't buy the pornography bit either. It's an excuse. You think America or Britain care about a bunch of guys with pictures of nude pre-teen girls ?  Half our politicians download this shit probably.
It sounds like the right thing to say they're looking for, plus it's not a security threat. Sometimes they don't even know what they're looking for, they just want to snoop.

I don't worry at all about "illegal aliens" - they make living in California AFFORDABLE, actually!

What troubles me is the politicians who think they deserve to consume the very same things they damn civilians for.

-Jean- wrote:
Just because they have the power to doesn't mean they will. Quarantine officers (with the permission of the federal police) have the power to have you sent to a hospital for a body cavity search if they feel like it.... but how many of you have had this done to you?

All I'm saying is, if you think that governments are so "paranoid", then if they ever DO try and search your laptop then kick and scream and throw a tantrum. They'll only fine you and do it anyway.

Easier just to accept it now and get over yourself.

You'll change your tune once you are subjected to a body cavity search.

"get over yourself"????  Wow, just wow!

-Jean- wrote:
Sometimes you have to give up a few liberties in order to make the community safe, and particularly young children. If having a quick look at the photo albums on your laptop will help trace child pornographers and save the child from any further abuse and deprivation, then for christ's sake just put up with it.

"Save the children" has long been a rallying cry used to hide totalitarian efforts to seize rights & freedoms from the populace at large.  Multiple pundits have noted "If you hear someone say 'protect the children,' grab your wallet with one hand and the Bill of Rights with the other because they're trying to take one of them away."  "Protect us from the terrorists" has rapidly risen in status to a similar level.

Regarding the portion of your statement in bold, "Those who would give up essential liberty for security deserve neither."  Google the phrase, it was said repeatedly by many of the founding fathers (though not Ben Franklin as is oft misquoted).

If you can't see why our paranoia about things has risen to the point where someone has to be concerned about going to jail over innocent photos of a mother bathing a child then YOU are part of the problem.
Your fears and lack of concern for basic rights is no reason anyone else should just "put up with it."

JAW IMAGING wrote:
And how do you think that looking at the photo albums on a professional photographers laptop is going to help trace child pornographers?

Is that a serious question? I mean, how does looking at the laptop of a Catholic priest/school teacher/policeman/carpenter uncover child porn??

You might be a professional child-porn photographer who was doing business overseas....or you might have downloaded child-porn images and they want to find out where they came from from tracing your message history and visited websites... god i dont know.

SLE Photography wrote:
...someone has to be concerned about going to jail over innocent photos of a mother bathing a child...

I'm sorry but when has anyone gone to jail over that? Do you have a link?

Why is everyone so paranoid?

Screaming at me isn't going to change the law. I'm sorry if you think it's my fault.

-Jean- wrote:

Is that a serious question? I mean, how does looking at the laptop of a Catholic priest/school teacher/policeman/carpenter uncover child porn??

You might be a professional child-porn photographer who was doing business overseas....or you might have downloaded child-porn images and they want to find out where they came from from tracing your message history and visited websites... god i dont know.

Just because "child pornographers" exist - that doesn't mean EVERYONE should be treated as though they are, in fact, child pornographers!

Look up the word "justice" - try Google.

digital Artform wrote:

That's the question we face now - do we really believe the words, "Live Free or Die" - or would we just rather not die - let's not worry so much about the Freedom part.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

- attributed to Benjamin Franklin

It's just that having one in a thousand laptops looked at doesn't seem like giving up an essential liberty to me.... and I understand that to some people it does, so in that case, just don't travel to Britain or the US lol.

Digital Vinyl wrote:
But what about private information that is not intended for anyone to see?

I can come up with a hundred reasons as to why authorities should not be able to access information but it's the 1000 other reasons I can't think of that is the concern.

The whole "Got nothing to hide, got nothing to worry about" attitude is not a good argument. It's precisely because I have nothing to hide that the authorities should not be bothering me.

Yep.  The people who say "Go ahead & search me, I have nothing to hide" a) don't know what they're giving up and b) will be sorry when something they think is totally innocent gets misconstrued & ruins their lives.

They should talk to some of the families who're victims of damage, injury, and death in "no-knock" drug raids where cops ROUTINELY show up at the wrong address or on the basis of a false & malicious tip.

J C KUNSTFOTOGRAFIE wrote:
Just because "child pornographers" exist - that doesn't mean EVERYONE should be treated as though they are, in fact, child pornographers!

Who is being treated like a child pornographer?


...everybody accepts that their luggage will probably be rummaged through when they enter another country. The very remote possibility that someone might take an interest in their laptop doesnt mean that everyone is suddenly being treated like a criminal.

To be honest, I'd much prefer an officer to look at my laptop then to pick through all my underwear or show everyone in the surrounding 5 metres what medications I'm taking..... but again, people just put up with it.

-Jean- wrote:
Just because they have the power to doesn't mean they will. Quarantine officers (with the permission of the federal police) have the power to have you sent to a hospital for a body cavity search if they feel like it.... but how many of you have had this done to you?

All I'm saying is, if you think that governments are so "paranoid", then if they ever DO try and search your laptop then kick and scream and throw a tantrum. They'll only fine you and do it anyway.

Easier just to accept it now and get over yourself.

So because it's EASIER just to give up the rights they're supposed to protect I should just do it?

Much as I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, you know who was a big proponent of that attitude?  The Nazis.  Stalin, too, for that matter.  Ask your boyfriend how that worked out.  Will you be happy to be a guard at the camps for all of us who refuse to just "go along"?

-Jean- wrote:
Sorry but how can they possibly know that you're law-abiding until they check you?

Because in this country the law says we're innocent until proven guilty and they must have probable cause to check us out to see if we've done something wrong.

-Jean- wrote:

It's just that having one in a thousand laptops looked at doesn't seem like giving up an essential liberty to me.... and I understand that to some people it does, so in that case, just don't travel to Britain or the US lol.

If you think human/individual/civil rights are something to be given away a little at a time, here and there - at the whim of the government - why don't you move to the People's Republic of China, North Korea or Myanmar???

-Jean- wrote:
Sorry but how can they possibly know that you're law-abiding until they check you?

Nice argument.  So according to this logic we're all guilty until proven innocent?

-Jean- wrote:
I'm sorry but when has anyone gone to jail over that? Do you have a link?

Why is everyone so paranoid?

Screaming at me isn't going to change the law. I'm sorry if you think it's my fault.

Who's paranoid?  You don't know about the multiple cases of parents being arrested & having their children taken away over things like photos of their kids bathing & then having to engage in messy fights to clear their names & get their kids back?
Try Googling it, you'll find plenty of examples.
Your problem is that you're ill-informed and naive.
You seem to honestly believe that governments typically look out for the best interests of their citizens, that laws are never misused and abused, and that innocent people aren't pilloried in the name of "protecting" the populace.
I'm not screaming at you, I'm saying you need to educate yourself a bit about how common abuses of rights are and how often it destroys the lives of innocent people, as well as how such things tend to grow exponentially.
Once governments are allowed to engage in such behavior they're not only reluctant to surrender it, they tend to try & take more and more.

J C KUNSTFOTOGRAFIE wrote:
If you think human/individual/civil rights are something to be given away a little at a time, here and there - at the whim of the government - why don't you move to the People's Republic of China, North Korea or Myanmar???

You're not being very logical. You haven't even given a thought to why they might have brought in the rule - except for the fact that they're ultra-commie-fascists who want to deprive you of all your freedoms.

Let's say a person tries to enter the country, and the quarantine officers find that his suitcase is full of DVDs with photos of children being raped on the cover, and upon playing those videos, they find that the DVDs are filled with footage of child abuse. The man also has two laptops in his bag.

Should they not be allowed to then check the laptops for any more? Or should they just confiscate the DVDs and say "here you go, you can keep the rest"?

-Jean- wrote:
It's just that having one in a thousand laptops looked at doesn't seem like giving up an essential liberty to me.... and I understand that to some people it does, so in that case, just don't travel to Britain or the US lol.

So if you don't want to give up your rights ("The right of a person to be secure in his person & papers" is in the Bill of Rights, if you haven't read it) I should give up my rights to travel & free association?
Uh, there's a small contradiction there.  "Either you give up your rights, or you ghive up your rights."

And if you think it'll stay one in a thousand your perspective is off.

BlankLogo Photography wrote:

Nice argument.  So according to this logic we're all guilty until proven innocent?

If you have ever travelled out of the country then you will know that that is EXACTLY how they treat you when you enter another country haha.

SLE Photography wrote:

So if you don't want to give up your rights ("The right of a person to be secure in his person & papers" is in the Bill of Rights, if you haven't read it) I should give up my rights to travel & free association?
Uh, there's a small contradiction there.  "Either you give up your rights, or you ghive up your rights."

And if you think it'll stay one in a thousand your perspective is off.

Of course I haven't read the bloody Bill of Rights. My country does not have your Bill of Rights/any document with a list of rights at all, so therefore YES come to Australia and our security and police will make your papers and person insecure at leisure - they are allowed to do so.

-Jean- wrote:
You're not being very logical. You haven't even given a thought to why they might have brought in the rule - except for the fact that they're ultra-commie-fascists who want to deprive you of all your freedoms.

Let's say a person tries to enter the country, and the quarantine officers find that his suitcase is full of DVDs with photos of children being raped on the cover, and upon playing those videos, they find that the DVDs are filled with footage of child abuse. The man also has two laptops in his bag.

Should they not be allowed to then check the laptops for any more? Or should they just confiscate the DVDs and say "here you go, you can keep the rest"?

The US practice (which's what we're discussing here, the British porn searches were mentioned as an adjunct) was not put in to place to stop kiddie porn, it was allegedly put there to "stop terrorism."
Problem is they'll misuse it to look for all sorts of other things and if past behavior is an example that means they'll LOOK for things to criminalize.

I noticed you're not from the US.  I don't know about NSW, but in this country we have a long history (altho it's been badly eroded in the recent past) of actually CARING about individual rights & freedoms.
I realize you don't understand that, and I'm sorry for you.
But your lack of understanding of the concept of freedom is not a good reason to criticize those of us who cherish it.

-Jean- wrote:
You're not being very logical. You haven't even given a thought to why they might have brought in the rule - except for the fact that they're ultra-commie-fascists who want to deprive you of all your freedoms.

Let's say a person tries to enter the country, and the quarantine officers find that his suitcase is full of DVDs with photos of children being raped on the cover, and upon playing those videos, they find that the DVDs are filled with footage of child abuse. The man also has two laptops in his bag.

Should they not be allowed to then check the laptops for any more? Or should they just confiscate the DVDs and say "here you go, you can keep the rest"?

Fascist/Communists/Dictators have invoked the VERY SAME calls for "public safety"/"betterment of the nation"/"family values" that you are - in order to justify their stripping away of civil rights.  That is usually how they come to power, with this bit-by-bit, little-by-little carving away of human rights.

Your hypothetical situation gives an example of "probable cause" (i.e. blood dripping from the trunk of your car, etc.) - whereas what you are advocating is that EVERYONE, regardless of "probable cause" should be treated as a criminal from the outset.

SLE Photography wrote:

Who's paranoid?  You don't know about the multiple cases of parents being arrested & having their children taken away over things like photos of their kids bathing & then having to engage in messy fights to clear their names & get their kids back?
Try Googling it, you'll find plenty of examples.
Your problem is that you're ill-informed and naive.
You seem to honestly believe that governments typically look out for the best interests of their citizens, that laws are never misused and abused, and that innocent people aren't pilloried in the name of "protecting" the populace.
I'm not screaming at you, I'm saying you need to educate yourself a bit about how common abuses of rights are and how often it destroys the lives of innocent people, as well as how such things tend to grow exponentially.
Once governments are allowed to engage in such behavior they're not only reluctant to surrender it, they tend to try & take more and more.

SLE is correct... back when 1 hour photo shops started popping up all over, it was standard policy for the shops to report any naked images of kids over 1 year of age. This practice resulted in innocent people being investigated for acts of pornogrophy.

it seems that in this country we are becoming guilty until you can be proved innocent. And people just seem to be ok with that until it happens to them.