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Flash: go for the cheap or invest?
So after reading the lighting posts here and sites like strobist, i'll be getting my first flash unit. I've also read some older posts here regarding similar topics but would like recommendations for my personal situation. And since money is a factor for me, do you think its better that i invest in a 580ex II now or start with a 3rd party brand like a sunpak 383? Camera: 20d. -I mostly want to use the unit for off camera set ups. I dont plan on doing event photography so I don't really need it for on camera or brackets (but would like that option when needed). -I would like to use it for fill lighting and bouncing. -I eventually plan on getting multiple strobes and maybe even studio strobes. -I plan on eventually getting a radio control system like pocket wizard (no IR). So since I have to still LEARN how to use flash, would it be wiser to start off on a cheap 3rd party brand and learn how to use the manual mode? Or should i start learning the whole E-TTL system and go with a 430ex or 580ex II? (though i dont like my future options with a 430ex -no pc socket, etc). Any suggestions or potential roadmaps would be appreciated. Thanks! Jul 24 07 12:00 am Link personally I would save the money on the flash and get a studio strobe like alien bees. Jul 24 07 12:03 am Link THE ONLY reason to get the 580 is if you'll shoot with it on camera and actually use it's auto capabilities. If you get 580 for off-camera - you're setting yourself up for torture, cause it's hard to sync with the camera and you're not using the functions you've paid extra 300 bucks for. Sunpak seems ok, I haven't used it myself. SHould be fine. Also look into vivitars 283, 285, 285HV. They go for about 50 bucks it seems. Don't forget a stand, umbrella holder and an umbrella. Jul 24 07 12:05 am Link You might want to think about getting the Canon ST-E2 Speedlite Transmitter and a 430EX. It's a little bit of money, but you will be able to learn more and have better control. The transmitter will let you place the flash around you and still give you full control. And you can add additional units later on. Read some of the reviews on the ST-E2 and you will like what you see. Enjoy! Jul 24 07 12:05 am Link W Thomas Miles wrote: I'd recommend against this. Extremely expensive and somewhat unreliable. Jul 24 07 12:06 am Link Andrew Vorobyov wrote: Just wondering what makes this unreliable? Jul 24 07 12:09 am Link If you don't think the shooting you're doing would benefit from TTL then why invest in it? Vivitars and Sunpaks are fine to start with. Jul 24 07 12:09 am Link I don't believe it is ever wise to go the cheap route unless you have to. Now, let's define cheap. When I say cheap, I am not referring to a better value product, ie a product that is essentially the same, or has one or two less features at less cost. We all do that. What I am talking about is buying something that you know you will replace later on. I don't buy third party glass (as an example) because I don't think any of it compares to the best (most expensive) Nikkor (Nikon) lenses. I could have purchased more lenses quicker had I gone that route, however I knew that I would just wind up replacing them (having done that twice). So, to paraphrase my old Sicilian grandmother, unless you have more money than you know what to do with, you are too poor to buy cheap. Meaning, don't buy the same thing over and over. Buy a quality unit one time, and use it for years to come. It is a better investment. I can't compare the two units, because I use Nikon gear. But I can tell you that the Sunpack doesn't hold a candle to the SB800, so if you were a nikon shooter I would tell you to invest in the Nikon flash. When you choose a camera you are choosing more than a body, you are buying into a system. One of the reasons people choose Nikon is because of their metering and flash systems, so it would be silly to then buy a third party system as you would be losing a lot of carefully matched functionality. I can only assume it is the same with Canon, but as I don't really know, you will have to wait to hear from Canon shooter whether my supposition is correct. Hope that helped some. EDIT: Having reread your post and the replies. I would probably suggest just getting a studio strobe and forgoing the smaller flash unit for now. If you're not going to use it on-camera, it may not make that much sense for you. Jul 24 07 12:11 am Link Sventender wrote: From what the Strobist guys say, go with a Vivitar 285HV and a Pocket Wizard for the same price. Jul 24 07 12:12 am Link Yes, Canon has a system too! (I shoot Canon) And it was my choice to invest my time and some money in learning about these features I paid for and to take advantage of them. Pricey? Yeah, but it all is... I have gone the cheap route myself - in the old days - and had to replace items twice. Went that route not to long ago in Europe. I carried a cheap tripod with me all the way across the ocean only to have it break in my hands the first time I wanted to use it. And with the dollar being so low, I waited until I got back to get a good one. I used a cardboard box and still got the shot! All good info on these posts by the way! I am learning too. Jul 24 07 12:16 am Link For studio work, get real studio lights (flash or hot lights.) I bought a pair of Sunpak 622s from eBay because I do almost exclusively location work. They were a reasonable price and work great. I got radio remotes off eBay as well. The final part of the picture is needing a couple of AC adaptors. A brolly box from Amnova cost me about $12 and a couple of tie wraps hold it on the flash just fine  Jul 24 07 01:17 am Link I have a 430ex and a 580 ex that I have often used in conjunction with an ST E2 transmitter, umbrella, reflector etc when I've been shooting outside. There are a number of examples in my portfolio where the lighting was essentially just this, The 580 is a great flash when used on camera, the automaic functions and controllable power work very well (even to the point where it knows what lens you're using!). Off camera with the transmitter it is a little less controllable but still performs well. I haven't found the transmitter to be unreliable at all. The thing you have to remember is that it fires an infrared beam. It'll bounce of walls and fire the flash(es) but when you're outside you have to be careful about positioning. Jul 24 07 02:43 am Link If you get a Vivatar 285, you're not just going to throw it in the trash if you get a studio strobe. You're going to still use it as fill or hair. So, you could go either way - bite the bullet and get the expensive one now, or work your way up. It's up to you. Jul 24 07 02:49 am Link I have a 550ex and have used the ste-2 transmitter, it works great except in bright daylight situations the sun in my experience overpowers or confuses the flash sensor so it does not read or see the infrared beam other than that I have not had any problems. If you are not going to use the flash with its E-ttl abilities then you are wasting your money and can get a better value going with something else. Jul 24 07 02:52 am Link I use a 580 and 430 together when I travel and LOVE the results. They sync together very well and have a ton of options when put together. There is a decent DVD out with some of the combinations. Makes for a great lighting setup especially for spur of the moment shoots (I travel a lot) Jul 24 07 02:55 am Link . Go the relatively inexpensive strobist route and learn about lighting, which you indicated you need to do. You will then be better informed regarding what studio lighting you might require. A strobist set-up can be used in the studio as well as on location -- plus they are not heavy. Get a lot of extra rechargeable batteries for the strobist-like strobes. Just because a certain brand and model of strobes works for someone else, such a choice *may* not be suitable for the way you might work. . Jul 24 07 03:00 am Link On craiglist i find 420EX for 150$ for starter i think is good Also you can find bracket on ebay for 30$ Shop around and you find some good stuf Jul 24 07 03:07 am Link Hmmm... I'm not understanding this whole studio strobe craze. I don't know what your shooting circumstances are, but getting a few small flashes to use off camera in the field somewhere is the way to go in my experience. While its nice to have those studio strobes, if you're on location and there's no power then you're pretty much out of luck. You can always use those smaller pocket flashes in studio as well. I bought an SB-600 to use with my new D-200 as I didn't have anything that would allow me to use TTL with that camera (I didn't have the budget for the 800). While iTTL is a nice gimmick, I get much more functionality out of my old SB-28 set to manual off camera. Strobist is a great site, stick to what he recommends and you will definitely be happy. Jul 24 07 03:31 am Link Alien Bees. If you drop them, you won't cry. If they fall down in the wind, you won't cry. If they get stolen, you won't cry, much. Try saying that about Elinchroms or Profoto. Jul 24 07 06:05 am Link my advice... dont piss around and get the cheap stuff invest in your equipment and you will have less problems.. this is what i have and I have the trouble-free operational record to prove it.. Jul 24 07 07:15 am Link I have the strobist setup right now and it has many limitations. 1. No modeling light/limited modeling lamp capabilities - I am looking for a quality set (thinking about Hensels), which has wireless receiver built in, has a WYSIWYG 250V modeling lamp. WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get) to me seems like something I really want to get. If you are learning light, then see how the light is set up before you shoot is very valuable. The 580EX has a modeling lamp, but is still really hard to see how the light will fall on the subject. The better quality lights, you are still able to use the modeling light, when on location and shooting off a battery pack. Cheaper brands, you sometimes lose the modeling lamp capability, when shooting off the battery. Cheaper brands also only have a 120V bulb for a modeling light. 2. Limited power - If you shoot like I do on location, the strobist setup you just can't overpower the sun. Just not enough power to overcome the contrast. These are my two main concerns. I just need to find funds for this, because I am really looking into a Canon 300mm f2.8 lens ($4,000). I shoot action stuff a lot and this lens is just magical. Then, the canon Mark III is another weapon I need ($4500). Therfore, I am battling myself, as to what nxt to buy. :-) Jul 24 07 07:28 am Link While I have studio lighting there are times when smaller units are convenient. Don't discount Vivatar or Sunpack!!....they make good solid equipment and I've been a user of both for a lot of years. I still have two Vivatars 283s that handle fill light nicely. I have also adapted a small lightbox to hold one for on location food shots and it works great! I've got nothing against dedicated strobes but it sounds like your needs are pretty much the same thing I'm using my old 283s. Jul 24 07 08:23 am Link Off camera, I really don't think you need an expensive shoe mount flash. A Vivitar 285HV or something similar will work fine. This is a great way to start off because eventually when you "grow up" to studio strobes, you will be able to use them in a mobile kit for location shoots. When it comes to the wireless trigger, you can actually use those inexpensive Cactus V2 flash triggers to start off, they are supposed to be fairly reliable and cost 25 dollars compared to the couple of hundred the pocket wizards would run you. The pocket wizards are a strong investment though and if you have the money to get them now, then it is a good idea. Jul 24 07 08:47 am Link Sventender wrote: You didn't say what it is you shoot. Portraits? Your portfolio is a mix of studio and location so if you will be going on location, the thyristors are easier to schlep than the heavier studio strobes. Jul 24 07 09:01 am Link I had made a small profit during the wedding season this year and was on the fence as to whether to buy the Bees, or a second speedlite with a transmitter.The deciding factor was this: the studio modeling work is what I like to do, but the income from weddings is far greater than the income from studio work...so I chose to invest in equipment for the wedding business and bought a 430ex with an ST-E2 to use along with my 580ex, would I have preferred a couple pro flash heads for the studio, yes,...but your business should dictate where you should invest..if you are a studio guy, hands down quality studio flash heads are the way to go Jan 14 08 07:58 am Link checkout the strobist blog for some great tips on lighting w/very little gear (https://www.modelmayhem.com/pics.php?id=378790) also, link to the Midwest Photo Exchange for decent/cheap gear that will get you by in a jam or when the budget is low. look @ their "straving student light kits" as a starting point. http://www.mpex.com/page.htm?PG=Strobist%20Kits Jan 14 08 08:09 am Link i used the canon high end digital 580 and used it in pitch dark conditions at 50 iso on a 5d and was just blown away by the result was about 8 feet away. its the reindeer scene in baby 1986 port so canon flashes rock Jan 14 08 08:15 am Link My advice is to get what you can afford now and as you do jobs that pay for the gear and as you learn, you can upgrade. Unless you do this as a hobby and have tons of money to burn. If that's the case, then get the best out there. I personally own Dyna-Lites and although there's many models that blow my lights out of the water, I'm very comfortable w/my set up. Any accesories I need I'll rent. However, I do most of my shoots w/a bunch of portable strobes, pocket wizards, peanut slaves and I use Justin clamps and other things like that. Nothing like being able to set up a light here and there in a few minutes and then take them down and put them all in ONE bag ! Jan 14 08 08:22 am Link If you are not going to use TTL Canon flashes are a waste of your money. Jan 14 08 08:46 am Link I go with the rest if you aren't using the TTL capabilities of the strobe then get a full manual unit like the Sunpak 383 or the Vivitar 285HV the rest of the money could be used to get lots of accs, good stand, good remote triggering system, a nice set of umbrellas -silver, convertible shot through or lastolite umbrella-. Jan 14 08 11:22 am Link if you never plan to use it on camera, why not just spend your $400 on two AB strobes? Jan 14 08 11:30 am Link if you don't plan to use it on camera, you can go the strobist route and get 4 sb-24's or sb-50dx's Jan 14 08 11:31 am Link Dave Wright Photo SF wrote: yup my plans exactly Jan 14 08 11:47 am Link If you do not have a portable light meter, and/or are not really comfortable with manual control of flash settings, get an E-TTL (or E-TTL -II) flash. I use a Sunpack Auto 555 (the 622 is another nice one). Very powerful and flexible, but NOT E-TTL. It's rare that the TTL would matter for me and I love the flexibility and cost of this. The few things I miss - rear shutter sync and in-camera flash configuration. I have seriously considered getting a Sigma EF series flash. From what I understand, the latest version work quite well with Canon and other E-TTL systems (took them some time to work out the kinks) Jan 14 08 11:49 am Link I could not live without my 580EX - E-TTL, manual, on camera, off camera, using it as a studio strobe with a light meter, or just for fill - it never seems to fail. I don't think it has a whole lot less power than an AB400, which, when I've borrowed a set, does a fine job for my few studio shoots. I like the 580EX so much that I am seriously considering skipping the Alien Bees and just getting another one. The biggest problem is attaching light modifiers but as was illustrated in a post above, it could be done. Keep in mind that I shoot mostly on location and love portability, but there was an article in Digital Photo Pro some time last year on a photographer that used nothing but a set of SB-800s for indoor/studio work, and his lighting was phenomenal. Jan 14 08 01:23 pm Link I would strongly recommend going with the Canon flash units, you can add the external power packs; they hold 8 AA batteries which speed up the recycle time and extends the shooting time. You can shoot manual or full auto, if you look at my portfolio only two shots were not done with the Canon flash setups, the lady with the black hat and young girl with light colored top spinning, with her hair flying outward, all others were Canon flash. Jan 15 08 10:55 am Link While I agree with your overall point -- one little nitpick -- the 580EX may have been hard to sync with the camera in manual mode, but the 580EXII has a nice PC socket, so you can use it just like a 283 if you want. I've got two of them I use on camera for weddings. I agree that studio strobes are better for studio work, but I'm really glad they added that PC socket so I can add the 580EX into my lighting setup in an emergency. Cheers, Paul Andrew Vorobyov wrote: Jan 15 08 11:05 am Link Sventender wrote: You can get something in the midlle Jan 15 08 11:11 am Link GGDeluxe wrote: My friend has a Dyna-Lite D800 power pack. Was made in the early 1980's. Put it up in the attic when he moved around 86 or 87, completely forgot about it. In December was doing some work on the floor boards in his attic and used it to weigh down a plank. The pinnacle of lazyness, at one point the hammer was out of reach... used the power pack to hammer in a nail. We just looked at each other and wondered, ".... this thing going to work?" Plugged it in with one of the heads.... pop pop pop. Jan 15 08 11:19 am Link I have seen people go out and purchase 5d's, pick up the 85 1.2L series lens and in the end come close to 10K in the end with the printers and monitors etc. When he told me he was just going to use 580's to do his portraiture I had to scratch my head. Lighting no matter where it comes from is still important? And I often wonder how a bunch of little lights are possibly as good as 1-3 other lights? I asked another friend who did the same with his Nikon gear, just got a D3 (sweet camera) sadly this is how he answered. He liked how TTL worked. The commander mode for them all to talk. How he just pointed and clicked. He advertises himself as a pro photographer, but he didn't own a light meter. And he didn't want to have to take meter readings as he shot. He only wanted to rely on the cameras meter and let it be with what there was on the lighting. If I were hiring him, in all honesty. .... I want to know the photog I have hired is doing more then "turning the green square" on so to speak. Lighting makes the shot better, and I admit, there are times a bunch of on camera flashes can do the job. But quality of light, consistency, power, these are things that can't be substituted by a bunch of little flashes. Fun as they are and I admit good to play with. I am not going to walk into a wedding or corporate portrait sitting with a bunch of speedlights. Just my $0.02. for what it's worth. I use the Dyna-Lite Uni400Jrg's with Jackrabbits. I get 400 w/s out of em, the Jackrabbit's are these little batteries I just clamp onto the light stand so I get the portability of lack of cables my friend with the speedlight has. So I can see the appeal of that, and naturaly, one of my 3 kits like that is the cost of 2 sb-800's. But I still take 3 of my Uni's and JR's over6 speedlights. Jan 15 08 11:30 am Link |
