mw image wrote:
I would appreciate a little advice, I'm shooting with a black seamless.  I want the bacground to be completely black.  What light fall off should I do it to best achieve this.... 3 stops lower at the paper?  And what tweeks do you guys normally use in pp to get it completely black, but still retain proper exposure on the subject?

This is the first time I've used black seamless.

What kind of look or lighting are you going to use on the model? Shooting on black is one of the easiest and minimal if any post if done right.  Once I know more I'll expand with some ideas

Geary Enterprises wrote:
What kind of look or lighting are you going to use on the model? Shooting on black is one of the easiest and minimal if any post if done right.  Once I know more I'll expand with some ideas

Its just the 1st time I've used black.. I've done the white, different grey's etc.. textures.  I just never did black. 

The look is just a rim light with a main snooted for that darker, harsh lighting look, stron shadows, completely black background.  I've done the "black" background before (without the paper) just used a very low power light directly for a very lined effect, but the background just fell off naturally since we were basically in a dark room anyway.  The couple of test shots I did the paper still looked a little grey.

The meter reading I'm getting with about 10' is about 2.5 stops from the subject, but in post it still has a "grey" tint to the paper not completely black.

isuckatphotography wrote:
its easy with strobes , just use a high shutter speed and put a large source , close to the subject.    place the subject 10 feet or more in front of the background.

Not to contradict you at all, but shutter speed isn't fast enough to control strobe lighting..  and most systems will sync too slow anyway.  Aperture is the only way to do this.

isuckatphotography wrote:
its easy with strobes , just use a high shutter speed and put a large source , close to the subject.    place the subject 10 feet or more in front of the background.

wrong , Shutter speeds do nothing with strobe, The light is too fast, it can only be done with aperture.

Norman Perkel wrote:

Not to contradict you at all, but shutter speed isn't fast enough to control strobe lighting..  and most systems will sync too slow anyway.  Aperture is the only way to do this.

I was thinking the same, the strobe "speed" is going to be the same irreguardless of if I sync at 125 or 250.. the light fall off wouldnt be any different correct??

Anthony Stubbs wrote:
Measure your light to subject distance, farthest light source. Multiply by approx 1.6 to set the distance from subject to black seamless. Boom! Black back!

Thanks, thats what I was looking for.  The only time I did shots before with the completely black background was when I did the shots of the woman in my port, but she was side lite in a completely dark room, one light with tight control.  This time I am lighting from the off center front, as well as using a rim.

mw image wrote:

I was thinking the same, the strobe "speed" is going to be the same irreguardless of if I sync at 125 or 250.. the light fall off wouldnt be any different correct??

Correct...  I am forced to use all sorts of combinations when I shoot live events and in most cases "don't" want a pure black background, so I needed to learn how to drag my shutter more to expose ambient light.  In your case, if I am understanding what you are trying to achieve, you "do" want a pure black..  So, keep in mind that the shutter will always expose ambient light, and the aperture will always control strobe.  It's a simple way to wrap it up, but it works.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Black paper b/grounds are usless to get total black, velvet is the answer or felt.

F10 ? between f8 and f11, is that 1/3 stop, 1/2 stop.. who knows.

Never thought of that either, is there really a big difference between black velvet and paper?

Ed Stevenson wrote:
I use black felt - it is much cheaper than velvet and very dull - sort of like a light sponge.

I assume you dont roll it out on the floor like paper, what do you use for flooring when doing full body shots, a couple I wanted were of her laying on the floor as well.

Duncan wrote:

wrong , Shutter speeds do nothing with strobe, The light is too fast, it can only be done with aperture.

actually it does , depending on your enviroment.    most of my house meters 1/60 at f5.6  at 100 iso during the day.    so i use the 1/180  on my eos a2 to cut out ambient light.  im also at f11 , so between aperature and shutter i am underexposing ambient light 4 stops.      we dont know the enviroment this person is shooting in , in a studio shutter speed may not matter.    in a house , church gym , hall , hotel room.  there may be ambient light to consider.

isuckatphotography wrote:

actually it does , depending on your enviroment.    most of my house meters 1/60 at f5.6  at 100 iso during the day.    so i use the 1/180  on my eos a2 to cut out ambient light.  im also at f11 , so between aperature and shutter i am underexposing ambient light 4 stops.      we dont know the enviroment this person is shooting in , in a studio shutter speed may not matter.    in a house , church gym , hall , hotel room.  there may be ambient light to consider.

right, there will be no ambiant light in this situation.

mw image wrote:

I assume you dont roll it out on the floor like paper, what do you use for flooring when doing full body shots, a couple I wanted were of her laying on the floor as well.

I just did a shoot with black felt last week...used it as a backdrop that extended out onto the floor.  Bought 4 yards.  It worked perfectly.

mw image wrote:

Never thought of that either, is there really a big difference between black velvet and paper?

Paper has some kinda sheen to it some makes look like they have a waxing.
Velvet absorbs light paper reflects it.

mw image wrote:

Its just the 1st time I've used black.. I've done the white, different grey's etc.. textures.  I just never did black. 

The look is just a rim light with a main snooted for that darker, harsh lighting look, stron shadows, completely black background.  I've done the "black" background before (without the paper) just used a very low power light directly for a very lined effect, but the background just fell off naturally since we were basically in a dark room anyway.  The couple of test shots I did the paper still looked a little grey.

The meter reading I'm getting with about 10' is about 2.5 stops from the subject, but in post it still has a "grey" tint to the paper not completely black.

I typically don't do this outside of a workshop that I'm teaching but you must have caught me in a good mood and I need a break... lol

We'll start w/ my avatar as an example,

the only post editing was a few extremely minor facial lines. Two lights, one reflector. The shot was done at ISO 200, f 4.5, 1/100 sec, @ approx 60 mm focal length on a 28 - 200 lens. Model was about 3' in front of the wall, main light had a 16" soft box and was about 6' from the model and about 20 degrees t her left, hair light on boom also had 16" soft box and was about 3' over her head angled to her left slightly, there was a 3' x 6' oval reflector just outside of frame to the model's right angled about 45 to the wall and about a foot ahead of the model. Note how sharply the light falls off on the left side of the image and the brick pattern disappears even though I had a reflector in place to sharpen the right side of the model. Biggest challenge here was to keep enough highlight on the model's black hair to keep it separated from the background.


This one I took at one of my workshops. I don't recall the exact light settings, model was about 4' from black seamless, main light had a 3' x 4' soft box at about 45 degrees, highlight had a barn door and # 30 grid 90 degrees to the model's left side, hair light on boom w/ 16" soft box. main and side light about 6' from model / 10' from black seamless.

The key to remember here is light fall off. Yeah you can say I have a difference of say 2 - 3 f's between the model and the background can be a good rule of thumb, but keep in mind the closer you can place your light source to the model the more the background light will fall off. Knowing this, you don't have to meter your model and background. Let's say the model is 3' from the background and your main light is 10' from the model, meter the model for perfect exposure and you'll probably end up w/ a gray background even though you're shooting her on black. Now move your main light to 5' away from the model, adjust the light to the same meter reading at the model, background will be notably darker if not a perfect black. For most shoots I do like you are looking to accomplish I get the lights as close as I can get them to the model and adjust accordingly to minimize of completely eliminate post work.

mw image wrote:

I assume you dont roll it out on the floor like paper, what do you use for flooring when doing full body shots, a couple I wanted were of her laying on the floor as well.

Actually, I do.  I picked up two whole bolts at the local fabric store.  It is plenty long enough to clamp on a background stand or anything else really, I let it hang and roll along the floor (like paper) with the added advantage of being washable (with reasonable care).  They do tend to pick up lint, but you should have a lint brush with you anyway. They make great drapes for art nudes or to cover up unwanted stuff. I have shot many models on the floor.

I have some cut my reflector size that I use for blocking light including background spill. I use them on each side of the model when I shot white/light clothing against white backgrounds for the nice edge they provide.

They are very versatile.

Don Wright wrote:
Keep the subject away from the backdrop.  Use sheets of foamcore or something similar to keep the light from spilling onto the backdrop.

That's how I'd do it

mw image wrote:
I would appreciate a little advice, I'm shooting with a black seamless.  I want the bacground to be completely black.  What light fall off should I do it to best achieve this.... 3 stops lower at the paper?  And what tweeks do you guys normally use in pp to get it completely black, but still retain proper exposure on the subject?

This is the first time I've used black seamless.

Flag your lighting setup and give some more distance between your subject and your background.

Another consideration it would be what kind of modifiers are you using? umbrellas -specially shot through- are baaad for this kind of shots too much light is being released in all directions, honeycomb grids, softbox or octabox with grids will ensure a better light control .

The other thing is could it be that your walls and ceiling are too bright and they bounce too much light to the background? if the walls are the problem you can get large pieces of black foamcore to put at both sides of the background and cover your walls when you need absolute blackness.

there are lots of factors to think of ... it really depends, what really helps to develop the "flag" sense is still life photography , but also experiments! so do a couple of experiments flagging your light setup to see how it works !!

mw image wrote:

Never thought of that either, is there really a big difference between black velvet and paper?

A very big difference. Black paper reflects light easily, black velvet absorbs all light.

Geary Enterprises wrote:

I typically don't do this outside of a workshop that I'm teaching but you must have caught me in a good mood and I need a break... lol

We'll start w/ my avatar as an example,

the only post editing was a few extremely minor facial lines. Two lights, one reflector. The shot was done at ISO 200, f 4.5, 1/100 sec, @ approx 60 mm focal length on a 28 - 200 lens. Model was about 3' in front of the wall, main light had a 16" soft box and was about 6' from the model and about 20 degrees t her left, hair light on boom also had 16" soft box and was about 3' over her head angled to her left slightly, there was a 3' x 6' oval reflector just outside of frame to the model's right angled about 45 to the wall and about a foot ahead of the model. Note how sharply the light falls off on the left side of the image and the brick pattern disappears even though I had a reflector in place to sharpen the right side of the model. Biggest challenge here was to keep enough highlight on the model's black hair to keep it separated from the background.


This one I took at one of my workshops. I don't recall the exact light settings, model was about 4' from black seamless, main light had a 3' x 4' soft box at about 45 degrees, highlight had a barn door and # 30 grid 90 degrees to the model's left side, hair light on boom w/ 16" soft box. main and side light about 6' from model / 10' from black seamless.

The key to remember here is light fall off. Yeah you can say I have a difference of say 2 - 3 f's between the model and the background can be a good rule of thumb, but keep in mind the closer you can place your light source to the model the more the background light will fall off. Knowing this, you don't have to meter your model and background. Let's say the model is 3' from the background and your main light is 10' from the model, meter the model for perfect exposure and you'll probably end up w/ a gray background even though you're shooting her on black. Now move your main light to 5' away from the model, adjust the light to the same meter reading at the model, background will be notably darker if not a perfect black. For most shoots I do like you are looking to accomplish I get the lights as close as I can get them to the model and adjust accordingly to minimize of completely eliminate post work.

Thank you, very informative!

Marc Grant wrote:
Why even light the paper if you want it black? 

Hey marc, hows KC buddy.

I'm not wanting to light the background, I'm using one large box (4') to light the model from the front one strip light on the side for seperation.  I want a good wrap around light on the model, not the harsh black on one side light like I have done before. 

So when I did that in tests the black paper was still picking up some of the light from the front placed box and the strip light on the side.. which isnt as big of an issue since its light goes off to the side away from the capture area. 

The problem isnt huge, but you can still see the black paper in the back, dark grey, instead of complete black like I want.  I could easily get the black background by placing the lights from the side or using more controlled direct lighting (grid, barn doors, snoot etc).  But I want the model to be wrapped in light as well as keeping the complete black background. 

In the space I'm using I can get about 8-10' distance from the model to the paper.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Black paper b/grounds are usless to get total black, velvet is the answer or felt.

I agree, I find that using black felt works better than anything else. I have tried paper which looks more like dark purple, velvet works but picks up too much like hair, lint, etc. Felt seems just right. I used felt on this shot:

Travis Feisthamel Photo wrote:

I agree, I find that using black felt works better than anything else. I have tried paper which looks more like dark purple, velvet works but picks up too much like hair, lint, etc. Felt seems just right. I used felt on this shot:

Thats exactly what I'm looking for.

mw image wrote:
I would appreciate a little advice, I'm shooting with a black seamless.  I want the bacground to be completely black.  What light fall off should I do it to best achieve this.... 3 stops lower at the paper?  And what tweeks do you guys normally use in pp to get it completely black, but still retain proper exposure on the subject?

This is the first time I've used black seamless.

Check out my port. I am working in a small space of 9.5' x 12' x 8.5' high and every image was taken before black seamless.  The images with the blackest black background were all taken with a 20deg grid on the key light.  Beyond that, I put barndoors/flags on everything else. Simply put, if you want black seamless to render as black, then don't light it.

Keith R