Makeup Artist
Rachel Lisa
Posts: 2975
Cincinnati, Ohio, US
Cynthia ORourke wrote:
bumpity bump.
AND... since I had a glass (two-tree) of wine and didn't bother reading the begining of the film pay discussion I will add:
Movies, even indie, student ultra-low budget where nobody is getting paid movies cost money to make. This is just a point of fact. My student film from film school cost $1500 and was complete crap and I never showed it to anyone.
Now if you are looking for a job in movies and you are offered something for "credit and food" or "deferred pay" or "great connections" or other such euphemism for no-pay you have to think to yourself: this film has no money. Either I work on it for love of the project (not bloody likely) or I wonder WHY they don't have enough money to pay people. If they are paying SOME people but not you, it means they're skimping on your department and don't value it. If no one is getting paid than you have to wonder why there is no money. The answer is a) producers/fund raisers did a crappy job or b) no investor will touch the film with a ten foot pole. If it's A then the film is run by incompetents and is probably not worth your time. If it's B than you have to wonder why no investors are interested. As suckers are a dime a dozen, the film must be real obvious crap if they can't get investors interested as even the investors know it will never make money (ie. you will never get your deferred pay or points) Which all boils down to:
Only work on films for free if you desparately need film experience. If you already have film experience, only work on films for free if you truly believe in the project's merit. If you already have film experience and you don't care about the project's merit, make sure you're getting paid. Period. Word to your mother!!!
I just worked on a film and when the line producer was paying me and trying to leave out my kit fee, he was like "Well, you're making more money on this than everyone but the DP". So? Not my fault they didn't negotiate a better rate! Now gimme my kit fee and shut up! Thank you!
Model
Keniesha C
Posts: 31
Fort Washington, Maryland, US
Hair Stylist
A J T
Posts: 3113
Brooklyn, New York, US
Hair Stylist
A J T
Posts: 3113
Brooklyn, New York, US
Makeup Artist
HFox Makeup
Posts: 442
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Thanks Alexander for being my cheerleader  Now back to regular programming.
Hair Stylist
A J T
Posts: 3113
Brooklyn, New York, US
ghost
edit: you're welcome. =P
It's a good thread, every newb should see it!
Makeup Artist
HFox Makeup
Posts: 442
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Photographer
R Guenther
Posts: 2264
Chicago, Illinois, US
HFox Makeup wrote:
I was commenting on another thread about trades and payments. It made me think to write this for newbies. So here my advice:
First things first: PLEASE DO NOT CHARGE A KIT FEE FOR TEST SHOOTS (TFP) OR ANYTHING ELSE RELATED TO PRINT. KIT FEES ARE ONLY FOR FILM, TV, AND VIDEO ADDED AS AN ADDITIONAL TO A DAY RATE.
When testing (a trade), only agree to a trade if it is going to be beneficial to you. Is the rest of the team on the same level or even better? Will you get great images out of it before deciding? Good networking opportunities, etc? Remember as Tania always says, test up and that it's still a business. When are you testing, please thrive for good clean beauty for makeup. The creative stuff will come later. It will get you paid work anyways. If it's not beneficial to you, just decline or charge a test rate.
This is really important. Please do not book a job you know you are not qualified to do yet and feel comfortable doing. Please be honest with yourself and the client and refer the job to a qualified professional.
Now the next thing, gigs that are not considered trades by any means in the real world are advertising, catalogs, editorials, actor's and corporate headshots, corporate shoots, stock photos, tv gigs, video gigs, commercials, film, etc. They are paying gigs simply put. Please do not do this for free. Period. When you are bidding for these jobs or when a client is inquiring about your services, never do it for a kit fee or for free. Always, tell them your half day or full day rates. Never, by looks, per face (unless it's bridal or special event), per hour, whatever. You will not hurt yourself but also drive down rates for everyone else. Please do not undercut anyone. Based on the market of where you live and work and your experience set a rate you are willing to work with and never back down.
I posted this so you know not to be taken advantage of and that you will be educated about what is the 'norm' in the real world. As well as knowing these things so you won't be taken advantage of. You also have to learn to be humble and pay your dues like every other artist did when they first started. LOVE this post! Especially the part I bolded. I get that so often. Its super uncool. Its like, if you don't want to test with me because I'm not adding anything to your book, say that and quote me a real price. But if you are testing with me and we are all contributing our skills PLEASE don't say "I charge a kit fee for gas". Its just unprofessional.
Makeup Artist
LizW_Makeup
Posts: 1621
Boston, Massachusetts, US
I just got called a snob elsewhere on the Forums for having the audacity to suggest that kit fees in print are unprofessional, so BUMP BUMP EFFING BUMP. 
Makeup Artist
Shekeita Magitt
Posts: 1172
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I'M rather new but thank god when I started testing I read every thread I could. In doing so I avoided all the drama of kit fees and went with test rates when a project didn't fit my book. Great post!
Makeup Artist
Angie Lum
Posts: 25
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Thank you for bumping this. Now this lil newbie knows ^_^ gotta learn something new everyday
Makeup Artist
Kim Wood - MUA
Posts: 28
Amarillo, Texas, US
HFox Makeup wrote:
.......
Now the next thing, gigs that are not considered trades by any means in the real world are advertising, catalogs, editorials, actor's and corporate headshots, corporate shoots, stock photos, tv gigs, video gigs, commercials, film, etc. They are paying gigs simply put. Please do not do this for free. Period. When you are bidding for these jobs or when a client is inquiring about your services, never do it for a kit fee or for free. Always, tell them your half day or full day rates. Never, by looks, per face (unless it's bridal or special event), per hour, whatever. You will not hurt yourself but also drive down rates for everyone else. Please do not undercut anyone. Based on the market of where you live and work and your experience set a rate you are willing to work with and never back down. Such a great point!... In my experience, it has helped me to ask what the budget allowed when discussing rates for commercial/film type gigs. Twice the budget was double my regular rates (so I could have made myself look inexperienced or talked myself out of higher pay) On the flip side, sometimes when I ask what the budget allows and its less than my rate, I have to consider whether the job will benefit me.
Makeup Artist
Lapin Jacqueline
Posts: 44
New York, New York, US
As a sfx artist, I understand charging kit fees for only film and stuff but sometimes in my situation taking a whole week to make prosthetics and using at least 200-500 dollars in materials would have to be added to my day rate. A lot of times the pre-production/shop work takes a lot time to prepare for even just a one day photo shoot. I always have to pay myself for the amount of time, labor, and materials no matter what. I don't necessarily call it a "kit fee" but I invoice the client everything that has been done and cost of materials used.
Makeup Artist
Arielle Williams
Posts: 64
New York, New York, US
Good advice!
I've been wondering, I've been working on my resume lately and doing a lot of gigs (low budget fashion shows, short films, etc) and not charging because I want a good looking resume (and the experience). I've slacked on pictures for my portfolio however, so I have a decent resume and only a so so portfolio because I can't always get the pictures from the shows and things I do.
Going off topic a bit, anyway at what point should I start charging for my work? I want to charge a price that reflects my skills, but I'm not exactly at a point where people are banging down my door and throwing handfuls of cash at me so I don't want to scare people away or have them wondering why I'm charging so much when I'm just a nobody.
Sorry, I just thought this was a good place to ask this since people on this thread seem to really know this kind of thing.
Also, I know you pretty much answered this already, but I've been wondering because I'm not trying to get paid right now, but knowing myself I'll just do everything for free forever because I'm so desperate to build myself up (and I'm also obsessed with this so I'll pretty much bend over backwards for gigs, paid or unpaid) so I wanna have an idea of when I should charge so I don't get so caught up that I start getting taken advantage of.
Makeup Artist
Sian Katie Leigh
Posts: 2
Worcester, England, United Kingdom
Very helpful, thank you 
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Maya Angela
Posts: 8
Chicago, Illinois, US
Thanks for all the info. This is stuff i didn't know
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 6427
Los Angeles, California, US
Rachel Lisa wrote:
I just worked on a film and when the line producer was paying me and trying to leave out my kit fee, he was like "Well, you're making more money on this than everyone but the DP". So? Not my fault they didn't negotiate a better rate! Now gimme my kit fee and shut up! Thank you! Shut up and thank-you?????
They will be just so eager to call you back....
Model
Ember Fox
Posts: 1
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
I've been told multiple times just because I'm newish to this site that I have to do trade for shoots. I am not going to do that just for exposure. I have two constant modeling gigs one with Coors Light and the other with an Music Entertainment company. Thank you for posting this up so I can get a little bit more insight on how this site should work.
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