Tony Lawrence wrote:

Jayne Jones wrote:
Do it because you enjoy it first. 
There are lots of things that pay a whole lot better.  By the way in most cases
those models posing nude for photographers for art nudes are not being paid as
it isn't for clients but as a TFP that may be published.  Check out a magazine
called Photo (The French version.) Its really just on sites like these that 'models'
talk about being paid to show some skin.  Most agency models do TFP for known
and new photographers all the time.  Sometimes semi-nude and sometimes :gasp:
nude.

You hit the nail on the head here.  Nearly every well known model of the last 20-25 years has done nudes - either fashion nudes or fine art nudes.  Most of the beautiful images of these well known models were done during "playtime" after a fashion or editorial shoot. Somebody else has paid the day rate for the photographer and model(s) and once the work for the client is done, they play.  Most of these models work repeatedly with the same photographers and the trust factor is high.  Read the content of many of the books by famous photographers and about famous models and you will see that being a "human clothes hanger" gets old pretty quick.

It is all about what you bring to the table.  Years ago - well more than twenty - when I lived in NYC and was still wet behind the ears I had not problem getting TFP models, even those signed to agencies.  They liked my work, their bookers liked my work, case closed.

Out here in the hinterlands (Balto/DC) it is much harder to find such models, especially those with the figures and faces you find regularly in NY.  My situation is improved only by the fact that within a certain sphere here I am known, as is my work.  Women, models included, like the way I shoot figures and I have little trouble finding subjects though many come from fields other than "modeling".

I have shot women from 4'10" and 82 pounds to 6'1" and 180 lbs and just about eveything in between. The idea that a photogrpaher with any talent can only shoot "skinny" models or one specific race is silly to me.  My own personal favorite subjects out of the many I've shot are a Filipino/Hawaiian/German and an African American, but they were more friends of mine than models and they both have a special grace and charm that the camera captures.

I have never, never, never, never tried to talk somebody in to posing for me nude.  To tell the truth, I really couldn't care less if a specific person wants to pose nude or not. I have a huge paper portfolio and share it freely with people.  If somebody likes what I do and wants to be part of the creation of new images - Great!  If not then it was not meant to be.

I appreciate the model as a part of my work and number many models among my friends.  I've gotten to know their friends, families, partners, children, parents and even grandparents because of the work we have done together.  I seriously doubt I'd even shoot a model who would ONLY get undressed for money. It takes a love and dedication to the work that you can not just purchase.

CristinaLex wrote:
FetishChic, I love your work I always wanted 2 do that type of photos but ....I dnt come off as such

BUT secretly I love goth work...its my weakness

*sigh* Cristina...I just looked at your portfolio.

Photo #4 on your opening page makes my heart flutter. I think you have a *perfect* look for alternative themed photography. Seriously...find someone who shoots it (well) and give it a try.

-Kenya

FetishChic wrote:

*sigh* Cristina...I just looked at your portfolio.

Photo #4 on your opening page makes my heart flutter. I think you have a *perfect* look for alternative themed photography. Seriously...find someone who shoots it (well) and give it a try.

-Kenya

I think imma take your advice and try tht...thanks for the lovin

Neal Rue wrote:
I don't find nude black models rare.  I do find black Gothic/Fetish models rare, though.  Seeing as how that is what I shoot, I am always interested in meeting some.

I will make a statement that could get me in trouble here, but at least in Florida, very few black models have multiple piercings and tatoos.

I never thought I'd mention this but for awhile, when I was dabbling in kink and I needed photos done (of me) for my site, I had trouble finding someone who was interested in shooting me. I know I'm not the prettiest girl around, but I was pretty shocked to see that only one person who I approached was interested in working with me. Maybe it was because they knew I was a photog. and they didn't want to even try and photograph a photographer. LOL

But that's the beauty of being a photographer...you can always take your own damned picture because you know how to use a tripod and cable release...LOL!!

At any rate..maybe there is something to be said about photographers who shoot fetish who may NOT want to use Black women in their imagery? Not looking for any flames here, but I'm just saying. It was an interesting thought.

Kenya

Flaor wrote:
Everything in this post is just a personal opinion, please read it just as such...

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
Not everything is an opinion.  I can vouch for one solid fact:  There are almost no black models willing to do fetish.  They just don't/won't do it.  Observe the fact that none of the posters in this thread have even acknowledged my repeated offers to shoot with them tfp, anytime, anywhere.  Before you say "well maybe you suck," take into account that I have a full slate of  models for my trips to Chicago this month and Tampa [for FetishCon] in august, so I must be dong something right.  Plenty of models want to work with me, just no black models.  Those are the facts.

Well personally Mel, it's nothing against you or your skills.  Fetish just doesn't appeal to me b/c I just can't picture myself doing it.  I don't find being "dominated" for film appealing, and the photographers that have approached me about it evidently don't really see a fat model dominatrix making them money.  Plus, I'm somewhat afraid of it being the only thing I'll be able to do once I start.  Kind of like why I don't really want to lose weight right now b/c I know the next step is a paysite full of multicolored thongs.  *lol*

Jayne Jones wrote:

Flaor wrote:
Everything in this post is just a personal opinion, please read it just as such...

Well personally Mel, it's nothing against you or your skills.  Fetish just doesn't appeal to me b/c I just can't picture myself doing it.  I don't find being "dominated" for film appealing, and the photographers that have approached me about it evidently don't really see a fat model dominatrix making them money.  Plus, I'm somewhat afraid of it being the only thing I'll be able to do once I start.

Yeah I see your point.  It would be awful travelling the world doing paid shoots and appearing at fetish balls all the time like Kumi does.  The last time I looked, she was booked solid until October.  That would be a terrible, terrible problem to have.

FetishChic wrote:
maybe there is something to be said about photographers who shoot fetish who may NOT want to use Black women in their imagery? Not looking for any flames here, but I'm just saying. It was an interesting thought.

I don't know of any fetish photographers who have any such restrictions.  And I know a lot of fetish photographers.

Strategic Photo Studios wrote:
Nude African American Models are Rare.  This is a myth that alot of photographers think.  Theres actually alot of nude african american models out there.  Like any other group, african american models would like to be compensated for their art.
Would love  feed back!!!!!!

There are a few photographers here who feature only one race or gender in their portfolios, and yours is the most common variant featuring only black females. While I do not question your motives for doing so, I suspect that your post is to add mystique to what you prefer.

IMHO, photography thrives on diversity.

Barron C wrote:
If you take beautiful photographs and show the real essence and loveliness of all woman you will have no problems finding any kind of woman and thinking that it is the skin color of certain women  shows your immaturity and lack of worldliness there are many published works of nude women of all colors some people simply need to expose their selves to a wider variety of art besides the the oldest nude in the world is of a black woman.if a woman chooses not to choose to pose nude has nothing to do with her skin color and many people connect nudity with morality because eventhough they say god created everything to some he seems to disapprove of much of his work.

Barron,

Excellent point.

To those blindly arguing this thread, I cannot offer you worldliness, but can direct you to a good book. See "The Black Female Body: A Photographic History" by Deborah Willis and Carla Williams.

Flaor wrote:
Everything in this post is just a personal opinion, please read it just as such...

Jayne Jones wrote:
Well personally Mel, it's nothing against you or your skills.  Fetish just doesn't appeal to me b/c I just can't picture myself doing it.  I don't find being "dominated" for film appealing, and the photographers that have approached me about it evidently don't really see a fat model dominatrix making them money.  Plus, I'm somewhat afraid of it being the only thing I'll be able to do once I start.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
Yeah I see your point.  It would be awful travelling the world doing paid shoots and appearing at fetish balls all the time like Kumi does.  The last time I looked, she was booked solid until October.  That would be a terrible, terrible problem to have.

No you don't see my point.  Rather, you didn't read all of what I said.  Take note of the bold areas in my post.  Fetish is not the kind of work I want to do for the reasons I've outlined. 

Doesn't matter to me if it pays or not.  Not my cup of tea.  Kind of like I'm sure someone will eventually pay to see my cellulite ridden chunky ass in a thong on the cover of one of those terrible low-qual booty mags.  Doesn't mean that because someone is willing to pay me to do it, or I'd have a lot of offers for work that it's what I want for myself. 

The way you're talking about it, like I'm stupid for not wanting to be a fetish model because it is a lucrative field of work, is just another reason why I'm jumping at the opportunity to do that kind of work.  You can't make someone change their mind about where they want their career to go.  And to talk to someone the way you posted. . .just makes you look selfish.  Clearly, you're not trying to gain the other person's perspective.  Just because that's the kind of work you have a passion for. . .doesn't make someone else a fool for not sharing the same passion.

Also, I find it interesting that most of the pictures I look at in fetish work have women in bondage.  Not men in bondage.  Maybe that's why AA women shy away from it.  Perhaps creating an AA Diva Dominatrix should be your next venture, rather than talking down to people for not sharing the same passion as you.

Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote:
A couple of weeks ago there were a string of threads started mostly by Afro-American models complaining that all anybody ever seems to want from them are bootylicious shots.

lol...that sounds pretty typical
and for the record, all photogs want from me is my booty too!

VRG Photography wrote:
Sometimes photography can have more drama than it's worth.

If you want to shoot nudes, fine. Find someone you trust, and shoot with them. If you don't, then say 'no' and move on. Don't try to discourage someone because of your own hangups and experiences.

The internet can suck the joy out of photography sometime.

Amen!!

Jayne Jones wrote:

Flaor wrote:
Everything in this post is just a personal opinion, please read it just as such...

Jayne Jones wrote:
Well personally Mel, it's nothing against you or your skills.  Fetish just doesn't appeal to me b/c I just can't picture myself doing it.  I don't find being "dominated" for film appealing, and the photographers that have approached me about it evidently don't really see a fat model dominatrix making them money.  Plus, I'm somewhat afraid of it being the only thing I'll be able to do once I start.

No you don't see my point.  Rather, you didn't read all of what I said.  Take note of the bold areas in my post.  Fetish is not the kind of work I want to do for the reasons I've outlined. 

Doesn't matter to me if it pays or not.  Not my cup of tea.  Kind of like I'm sure someone will eventually pay to see my cellulite ridden chunky ass in a thong on the cover of one of those terrible low-qual booty mags.  Doesn't mean that because someone is willing to pay me to do it, or I'd have a lot of offers for work that it's what I want for myself. 

The way you're talking about it, like I'm stupid for not wanting to be a fetish model because it is a lucrative field of work, is just another reason why I'm jumping at the opportunity to do that kind of work.  You can't make someone change their mind about where they want their career to go.  And to talk to someone the way you posted. . .just makes you look selfish.  Clearly, you're not trying to gain the other person's perspective.  Just because that's the kind of work you have a passion for. . .doesn't make someone else a fool for not sharing the same passion.

Also, I find it interesting that most of the pictures I look at in fetish work have women in bondage.  Not men in bondage.  Maybe that's why AA women shy away from it.  Perhaps creating an AA Diva Dominatrix should be your next venture, rather than talking down to people for not sharing the same passion as you.

I've found that men have the same set of issues with fetish imagery that black women do.  And I would have no problem working with a black Domina to make images.  If you know of one, please send her my way.

I think the problem here is that you don't fully comprehend the forces at work in D/s imagery.  If all you see is women being "tied up" then it's you who are missing the point.  Your impression that I think you're a "fool" for not doing fetish is a typical knee-jerk reaction to my statement.  The women I work with are far from "victims" in anyway.  Rather they are highly intelligent, motivated and harder-working than any "fashion" model I've encountered.  You might want to talk to a few of them before you write them off as being "dominated" in images.  What's happening in a [good] fetish image is much, much more complex than that. 

As for what other photographers might want from you, my answer is the same one I always give:  I'm not those photographers.  I think my work speaks to the idea that I actively seek out as many different "types" to do my work with as possible.  What I can't and won't do is paralyze myself by thinking I "have" to have more black [or male] models in my work for it to be legitimate.  That's obviously not going to happen any time soon [judging from this thread], but it's certainly not my fault.

As for my "talking down" to you...While I tend towards the sardonic in my replies, the fact that you think being compared to a world-class model such as Kumi is being talked down to is more a self-reflection than an indication of my attitude towards you.  All day everyday I read in these forums about how models can't get paid, models can't get pictures, models can't get respect from photographers, etc. etc.  Well the fact is that Kumi gets all of those things.  The fact that you can't personally connect with the work she does makes her no less of a successful model and an example for other models to follow.  The fact that she's booked solid around the world until October [including an August shoot with me] has to do with a lot more than the type of modelling she does.

Another important point to remember is that this entire thread is about photographers searching for women of color for specific types of work.  If you don't want to do that work, that's fine with me [believe me it is], but [imo] the next black model i encounter has no right to question why I don't work with more black models...The reasons are obvious.

Flaor wrote:
I, personally, don't find "Glamour thong shots" neither tasteful, nor attractive. I have nothing against "cushion for the pushin'"; but, imho, snapping a pix of a enormous cellulite filled bootie has nothing to do neither with modeling, nor glamour; and, definitely, can not remotely classified as an art.

One of my favorite comedians said, "There is nothing wrong with being fat, I am getting there. But don't BS me, and don't BS yourself..." It is not modeling, it is not art. it is not glamour - IT IS fetish!

People like you are the reason that I am so vocal about what I do. 

Jayne Jones wrote:

Flaor wrote:
Everything in this post is just a personal opinion, please read it just as such...

No you don't see my point.  Rather, you didn't read all of what I said.  Take note of the bold areas in my post.  Fetish is not the kind of work I want to do for the reasons I've outlined. 

Doesn't matter to me if it pays or not.  Not my cup of tea.  Kind of like I'm sure someone will eventually pay to see my cellulite ridden chunky ass in a thong on the cover of one of those terrible low-qual booty mags.  Doesn't mean that because someone is willing to pay me to do it, or I'd have a lot of offers for work that it's what I want for myself. 

The way you're talking about it, like I'm stupid for not wanting to be a fetish model because it is a lucrative field of work, is just another reason why I'm jumping at the opportunity to do that kind of work.  You can't make someone change their mind about where they want their career to go.  And to talk to someone the way you posted. . .just makes you look selfish.  Clearly, you're not trying to gain the other person's perspective.  Just because that's the kind of work you have a passion for. . .doesn't make someone else a fool for not sharing the same passion.

Also, I find it interesting that most of the pictures I look at in fetish work have women in bondage.  Not men in bondage.  Maybe that's why AA women shy away from it.  Perhaps creating an AA Diva Dominatrix should be your next venture, rather than talking down to people for not sharing the same passion as you.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
I've found that men have the same set of issues with fetish imagery that black women do.  And I would have no problem working with a black Domina to make images.  If you know of one, please send her my way.

I think the problem here is that you don't fully comprehend the forces at work in D/s imagery.  If all you see is women being "tied up" then it's you who are missing the point.  Your impression that I think you're a "fool" for not doing fetish is a typical knee-jerk reaction to my statement.  The women I work with are far from "victims" in anyway.  Rather they are highly intelligent, motivated and harder-working than any "fashion" model I've encountered.  You might want to talk to a few of them before you write them off as being "dominated" in images.  What's happening in a [good] fetish image is much, much more complex than that. 

As for what other photographers might want from you, my answer is the same one I always give:  I'm not those photographers.  I think my work speaks to the idea that I actively seek out as many different "types" to do my work with as possible.  What I can't and won't do is paralyze myself by thinking I "have" to have more black [or male] models in my work for it to be legitimate.  That's obviously not going to happen any time soon [judging from this thread], but it's certainly not my fault.

As for my "talking down" to you...While I tend towards the sardonic in my replies, the fact that you think being compared to a world-class model such as Kumi is being talked down to is more a self-reflection than an indication of my attitude towards you.  All day everyday I read in these forums about how models can't get paid, models can't get pictures, models can't get respect from photographers, etc. etc.  Well the fact is that Kumi gets all of those things.  The fact that you can't personally connect with the work she does makes her no less of a successful model and an example for other models to follow.  The fact that she's booked solid around the world until October [including an August shoot with me] has to do with a lot more than the type of modelling she does.

Another important point to remember is that this entire thread is about photographers searching for women of color for specific types of work.  If you don't want to do that work, that's fine with me [believe me it is], but [imo] the next black model i encounter has no right to question why I don't work with more black models...The reasons are obvious.

Again, your post is full of that "Away with you silly one" tone. 

1-I don't do fetish work, so how would I know who that chic is?? 
2-To say that "yeah it would be a terrible situation to be booked all over the country like Kumi is" is indeed talking down to someone.  Had you said, "You could really blow up in that field and be booked from London to NYC like another well-known highly regarded Fetish model Kumi."  Those are two totally different statements.  I dare say the first is flippant.
3-Hs it even occured to you that in order to appeal to an audience, sometimes you have to explain the art???  Evidently not.  My guess is you expect people to automatically know what you are talking about when you talk to them.  Your medium/field of work is not something I spend a lot of time investigating.  Why???  Because I'm not interested in it.  And as long as there are snobby photographers out there speaking to models in the tone which you chose to speak to someone who clearly knew nothing about the work that you do. . .there will continue to be misinformed/uneducated/disinterested models in that field of work.  Education is the key.  Put your knowledge and passion to good work, and educate some people on what you do and why you're so friggin passionate about it, instead of snubbing your nose at people like they should already know.

That's all I have to say about that.

Jayne Jones wrote:
Again, your post is full of that "Away with you silly one" tone. 

1-I don't do fetish work, so how would I know who that chic is?? 
2-To say that "yeah it would be a terrible situation to be booked all over the country like Kumi is" is indeed talking down to someone.  Had you said, "You could really blow up in that field and be booked from London to NYC like another well-known highly regarded Fetish model Kumi."  Those are two totally different statements.  I dare say the first is flippant.
3-Hs it even occured to you that in order to appeal to an audience, sometimes you have to explain the art???  Evidently not.  My guess is you expect people to automatically know what you are talking about when you talk to them.  Your medium/field of work is not something I spend a lot of time investigating.  Why???  Because I'm not interested in it.  And as long as there are snobby photographers out there speaking to models in the tone which you chose to speak to someone who clearly knew nothing about the work that you do. . .there will continue to be misinformed/uneducated/disinterested models in that field of work.  Education is the key.  Put your knowledge and passion to good work, and educate some people on what you do and why you're so friggin passionate about it, instead of snubbing your nose at people like they should already know.

That's all I have to say about that.

I admit to the occasional flippant tone my replies take.  I never thought having a sense of humor was a bad thing.

You keep claiming you're being "talked down to" when you're doing all the "talking down."  My goals and motivations are clearly spelled out on my profile.  If you need more information than that, there are countless sources of information on the internet...That's where I learned what I know from. 

Actuallly all the "misinformed" models exist outside of fetish.  I have yet to work with a model who didn't have an excellent grasp of the concepts and ideas at work. 

My knowlege and passion is reflected in the long list of models I've worked with over the last several years and the long list of people looking forward to working with me in the future.  I'm not nearly as in demand as Kumi [mm# 3707 by the way], but I do have a busy summer ahead of me. 

Once again let me make it clear:  If you have no interest in doing nude/fetish/erotic work, then don't.  Please don't.  The type of work I do is already complicated and difficult enough.  I remind you that the entire point of this thread was why there are so few black models doing nude work. 

Now we know.  And that's that.

Albie Bruno wrote:
Being from a multi-cultural family and growing up in innercity Brooklyn, I feel the lack of African American nude Art models is an offspring of a legacy of being exploited. Minorities in general have a relatively recent history of being exploited for our talents and attributes and with todays generation becoming more independant, perhaps there is a sense of "No More" becoming more prominent.
Albie

This may be too deep for some Mayhemers, but you make a very valid point.

Destiny22 wrote:

This may be too deep for some Mayhemers, but you make a very valid point.

I can see that....