X-processed FashionWerk wrote:
I tried exactly the way you described. SB-600 on camera, I used reflector to bounce light from the flash onto optical element of AB800 (they not very sensitive). Here is result at 1/1000s:

I'd love to see it the same method with a frame that isn't predominately-black, just so any evidence of the camera shutter or parts of the sensor that weren't exposed would be visible.

Simon Gerzina wrote:
I'd love to see it the same method with a frame that isn't predominately-black, just so any evidence of the camera shutter or parts of the sensor that weren't exposed would be visible.

In a filled frame (as this one), that should be immediately obvious - the shutter takes the shortest route possible, so down the width of the image you're looking it.  Either her hair or her chest would show the shutter if it'd been there.

Great shot.

G DOT wrote:
hey james what nikon do you shoot with

D700, but the high speed sync feature is available on the D200 and presumably on the D300 and D3.  Perhaps others too.

Julian II wrote:
On my D300 flash sync speed doesn't seem to go above 1/320th of a second. Unless I missed something. Or is this just on newer Nikons?

The OP is talking about using a SB-800 or SB-600 on-camera  to trigger the Alien Bee optically.

I will definitely have to give this a shot!

AmishBill wrote:
I found some sync details from the Alien Bees product pages.

I have no idea why the full flash is listed as being faster than the min power flash.

From their AB800 page, it says :
t.5 Flash Duration
Full Power    1/32 Power
1/3300 sec.  1/1650 sec.

t.1 Flash Duration
Full Power   1/32 Power
1/1100 sec. 1/550 sec.

(no, I am not sure what t.5 vs t.1 means)

The AB1600 page says :
t.5 Flash Duration
Full Power   1/32 Power
1/1800 sec. 1/900 sec.

t.1 Flash Duration
Full Power  1/32 Power
1/600 sec. 1/300 sec.

I think these statistics don't measure the full flash duration.  I think they just measure the time it takes for the light intensity to go from a particular point on the amplitude curve to the peak and then down to the same point.  I think (without having gone back to check) that the t.5 statistic measure the time it takes the flash to go from half its maximum intensity to peak and then back to half.  I suspect that the t.1 statistic measures the time from 1/10th of peak intensity up to the peak and then back down to t.1 again, which is why it's longer than the t.5 measure.  The t.1 statistic should be reasonably close to measuring the full flash duration.  (Someone with access to the AB documentation probably can correct or clarify this if I've gotten it wrong.)  There's usually a very short ramp up preceding the peak intensity and a much longer decay curve following it.  It looks like the decay period on the AB must be fairly long, which is why the t.1 measure is so much longer than the t.5. 

The difference in the t.5 and t.1 measures between full power and low power must reflect the rate of decay from the peak flash intensity.  The decay must be relatively faster at peak power.

Jinxt Photo wrote:

The OP is talking about using a SB-800 or SB-600 on-camera  to trigger the Alien Bee optically.

I will definitely have to give this a shot!

Right, I know. I have my D300 menu in front of me, and item e1 is flash sync speed.  The top two (fastest) items are 1/320 s (Auto FP) and 1/250 s (Auto FP). Just select those and assume it will spread the flash out across 1/4000th or whatever?

Julian II wrote:

Right, I know. I have my D300 menu in front of me, and item e1 is flash sync speed.  The top two (fastest) items are 1/320 s (Auto FP) and 1/250 s (Auto FP). Just select those and assume it will spread the flash out across 1/4000th or whatever?

That is correct .... as long as you use a SB flash

Julian II wrote:
Right, I know. I have my D300 menu in front of me, and item e1 is flash sync speed.  The top two (fastest) items are 1/320 s (Auto FP) and 1/250 s (Auto FP). Just select those and assume it will spread the flash out across 1/4000th or whatever?

DP

Jinxt Photo wrote:

The OP is talking about using a SB-800 or SB-600 on-camera  to trigger the Alien Bee optically.

I will definitely have to give this a shot!

It works to a lesser extent using an SB-800 or SB-900 on-camera in FP Sync with a Pocket Wizard or other radio trigger connected to the PC Sync *on the flash*.

I've used this with an ABR-800 at 1/2000. The lighting isn't consistent, though - as the flash duration varies by power setting, the luminance ramping becomes visible in the image (the "centerline" of the image might be brighter than the top/bottom because of where the "peak" occurs during the shutter transit.)

James Bluck wrote:
I'm curious to know if anyone else has tried this and what results they got.

This evening I experimented to see if I could use the Nikon high speed sync feature with Alien Bee strobes.

Some Nikon cameras have a "high speed sync" feature that allows you to use a Nikon speedlight and shoot at any shutter speed up to the highest available on the camera, e.g., 1/8000 of a second.

If you attach an Alien Bee strobe via a PC sync cord (or radio trigger), you start to get the telltale dark bar across part of the picture as you increase the shutter speed above the normal maximum sync speed of the camera (or the radio trigger), in this case 1/320.

I then tried putting the Nikon speedlight on the camera but used a separate optical slave trigger (in this case a Vivitar) taped to the front of the speedlight and connected to an Alien Bee strobe by a PC sync cord.  With this system, I could fire the Alien Bee strobe and achive a perfect sync (i.e., an even exposure across the frame with no telltale dark bar at the edge of the picture) at shutter speeds up to 1/5000.

Here's the interesting part.  At shutter speeds above the normal maximum sync speed of the camera, i.e. above 1/320, the overall exposure from the strobe began to diminish as the shutter speed was increased.  This clearly means that the total duration of the flash is greater than 1/320 so that as the shutter speed is increased, the tail end of the flash output gets cut off.  The more the shutter speed is increased, the more of the tail is cut off and the lower the exposure. 

I assume from this that using this high speed sync technique outdoors you could still adjust the relative exposure from the strobe and the sunlight just by changing the shutter speed (assuming that it stays above the maximum normal sync speed of the camera).  As the shutter speed of the camera is increased, the exposure from the sunlight would drop proportionately.  The exposure from the Alien Bee strobe also would be diminished, but not proportionately because you're just cutting off the weakest part of the flash output, i.e. the part where the illumination is gradually decaying at the end of the flash.  Therefore, the illumination provided by the strobe should increase relative to the illumination from the sun.

I'll probably get around to testing that sometime this weekend when there's time, but I'd be curious to know if anyone else has tried this and what they learned from the experiment.

I have used that Technic and get great results up to 1/8000. I have posted how to achieve this, 2 years ago on DPReview and Modelmayhem forum. Here some shots using the Zeus 2500 pack with 2500 Head and the RingMaster.

Dedicated HS on camera --> Optical Slave connected to PW ---> PW connected to Zeus 2500 pack

ISO 200 1/2500 f 7.1


Iso 200 1/2500 f8

James Bluck wrote:
I'm curious to know if anyone else has tried this and what results they got.

This evening I experimented to see if I could use the Nikon high speed sync feature with Alien Bee strobes.

Some Nikon cameras have a "high speed sync" feature that allows you to use a Nikon speedlight and shoot at any shutter speed up to the highest available on the camera, e.g., 1/8000 of a second.

If you attach an Alien Bee strobe via a PC sync cord (or radio trigger), you start to get the telltale dark bar across part of the picture as you increase the shutter speed above the normal maximum sync speed of the camera (or the radio trigger), in this case 1/320.

I then tried putting the Nikon speedlight on the camera but used a separate optical slave trigger (in this case a Vivitar) taped to the front of the speedlight and connected to an Alien Bee strobe by a PC sync cord.  With this system, I could fire the Alien Bee strobe and achive a perfect sync (i.e., an even exposure across the frame with no telltale dark bar at the edge of the picture) at shutter speeds up to 1/5000.

Here's the interesting part.  At shutter speeds above the normal maximum sync speed of the camera, i.e. above 1/320, the overall exposure from the strobe began to diminish as the shutter speed was increased.  This clearly means that the total duration of the flash is greater than 1/320 so that as the shutter speed is increased, the tail end of the flash output gets cut off.  The more the shutter speed is increased, the more of the tail is cut off and the lower the exposure. 

I assume from this that using this high speed sync technique outdoors you could still adjust the relative exposure from the strobe and the sunlight just by changing the shutter speed (assuming that it stays above the maximum normal sync speed of the camera).  As the shutter speed of the camera is increased, the exposure from the sunlight would drop proportionately.  The exposure from the Alien Bee strobe also would be diminished, but not proportionately because you're just cutting off the weakest part of the flash output, i.e. the part where the illumination is gradually decaying at the end of the flash.  Therefore, the illumination provided by the strobe should increase relative to the illumination from the sun.

I'll probably get around to testing that sometime this weekend when there's time, but I'd be curious to know if anyone else has tried this and what they learned from the experiment.

Your setup can be further simplified by connecting sync cord from your Nikon Speedlight to your Alien Bee.  As long as the Nikon Speedlight shows FP on the display, you're good to go.  And to speed up my shooting, I'll set the speedlight to manual and at the lowest power possible.

Julian II wrote:

Right, I know. I have my D300 menu in front of me, and item e1 is flash sync speed.  The top two (fastest) items are 1/320 s (Auto FP) and 1/250 s (Auto FP). Just select those and assume it will spread the flash out across 1/4000th or whatever?

Select either of the FP options.  Then when using a high speed sync compatible flash (SB-800 or 900) then you'll be able to exceed the 1/250 1/320 max sync.

Christopher Hartman wrote:
Your setup can be further simplified by connecting sync cord from your Nikon Speedlight to your Alien Bee.  As long as the Nikon Speedlight shows FP on the display, you're good to go.  And to speed up my shooting, I'll set the speedlight to manual and at the lowest power possible.

Good idea, ugh cant wait to get home to try it now...I'f I'm successful I'll post my findings/results.

Great info!

Markus Goerg Images wrote:
Why is there even a limitation to what the sync speed is? Based on the info in this thread, there really shouldn't be a limitation at all. Or am I not getting it? I always just accepted that there's a limit to sync speed and just lived in blissful ignorance until now. I feel like getting Mr. Nikon on the horn and making sure this is looked into, and the limit is soon a thing of the past!!

The limitation is the focal plane shutter.  A focal plane shutter always moves at a constant speed, but varies the delay between the first and second curtain. This effectively varies the width of the slot. At low speeds the effective width of the slot will be greater than that of the sensor, so the flash can fire when the full sensor is exposed. (Of course width can refer her to vertical as well as horizontal opening.) At higher speeds the slot is less than the sensor width so the whole sensor is never exposed at any one time. Firing a single short flash will only expose part of it. That is why there is a limitation. CCD sensors could use an electronic shutter which could sync at virtually any speed, and some earlier Nikon cameras used this. However most camera now use CMOS sensors for their superior image quality, and these cannot easily (meaning cheaply) use an electronic shutter, so the problem is back with us. I'm sure Mr. Nikon would gladly oblige you (and boost his sales in the process) were it easily possible!

Sentimental Treasures wrote:
What you get doing this is your HS strobe filling in the light... the series of flashes it sends cover up the bar that would show up if you tried to sync at the higher speeds with the alien bees.

Thats why the results vary,  so don't believe it.

This is not correct.  At least the way I did it, the on-camera strobe was completely covered up so that it had no effect on the illumination of the image.  All the light came from the AB.

Julian II wrote:
On my D300 flash sync speed doesn't seem to go above 1/320th of a second. Unless I missed something. Or is this just on newer Nikons?

In FP and/or commander mode your D300 (I use one too) will sync Nikon speedlights at upwards of 1/4000th of a second. I use this all the time to equalize the desert light I shoot in so often

Greg Cobb Photography wrote:
I've been wanting to try that.  I'm not sure I'd have much luck with my 30D though.

It's not about your camera, it's about using the right high speed sync flash that you mount on your camera to make this work correctly. Nikon and Canon both make high speed sync flashes. The flash can trigger the strobes if they have the flash slave sensor.

X-processed FashionWerk wrote:
I tried exactly the way you described. SB-600 on camera, I used reflector to bounce light from the flash onto optical element of AB800 (they not very sensitive). Here is result at 1/1000s:

Most likely, you got away with that because the dark bar was on the left side, and the bright side light survived some attenuation.

Sentimental Treasures wrote:
What you get doing this is your HS strobe filling in the light... the series of flashes it sends cover up the bar that would show up if you tried to sync at the higher speeds with the alien bees.

Thats why the results vary,  so don't believe it.

May I assume that you have tried it, to come with that conclusion?

So, like in that picture, I shot at 1/3200 you mean that it's my Dedicated HS Strobe that lit the model, while I was 30 feet far from the model, under the sun, around noon, here in florida!!!!