Julia Dyson wrote:
Thank you so much for putting it in simple words for us. You champion

You forgot to mention natural daylight.
Guess it should be treated pretty much as 'sharp light'?

Also, I find, some photographers tend to change the lights throughout the shoot randomly.
Like: "lets take few shots with a soft box, then let's do some without, then let's put a blue gel over the light for something to do..."
And obviously in this case you wouldn't be taking the model back to your station for a complete makeup change each time ...
So the same makeup looks awesome in some shots and absolutely crap in others. Then this goes on display somewhere and you can't tell everyone who sees it: "My work didn't look this crappy to start with, it's because the photographer changed the lighting..."
How do you guys deal with this?

Actually Natural Day light would go into 2 different catagories

A Sunny day   shooting around noon would be Sharp lighting , or Hard if you like.....

A Cloudy Day ,is  naturaly diffused lighting so it would be Diffused


As far as a photographer changing the lighting mid shoot , its always ok to step in to tweak the makeup , also communication is key here

Jhaesayte wrote:
Could you make a list of the most common lenses used for motion pictures, and what their specs are?

It's not the lens, it's the filters. Check out camera filters at http://www.leefiltersusa.com and lighting filters at http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/cinegel.asp

RYDER make-up labs wrote:
I love this subject and I'd like to contribute.

With more photographers shooting digital now, color temperature can easily be adjusted in post.

When working with motion picture film, the film will be rated tungsten (warm) or daylight (cool). Filters are added to lenses to alter the color temperature. The camera assistant places a piece of tape on the side of the camera with the filter names being used on the lens. Familiarize yourself with the film stocks and filters used for camera so that you don't bother the DP with questions. The camera department is very busy and don't want to hold your hand. For instance if the tape on the camera says 85N6, the filter is very warm. Cameras also use lens filters for diffusion. If you see 1/4 Pro Mist on a piece of tape... there will be light diffusion on the camera making the image softer. There may be more than one filter on the camera. It is easy to see the filters being used on the camera if you look at the lens.

Filters are placed in front of lights to correct the color temperature and to diffuse light. HMI lights are high color temperature (daylight). The color temperature can be lowered by placing a warm gel in front of the light, such as CTO or 85. Tungsten lights are low color temperature. The color temperature can be changed by placing a blue gel in front of the light. You can easily see the gels being used in front of a light.

Many times early in my career, I tried to alter the make-up to compensate for bright light and other problems. I found that when my actors walked into a shadow the adjustment was way over the top. Be careful! When you are working on your first few films the camera department is probably just learning as well. Try not to change make-up for lighting if you can avoid it.

Excellent post and Thank you
I was on one show an episodic I can remeber we were always shooting nights and days ,in the same day , interiors , exterios  and the lighting was so dramticly different , the best you could do was play the line... always safe
Yes in film and tv you dont get to tweek
But in Photography I think its expected becouse they will have to play in photoshop less time , most photographers appreciate this

Chris Milone wrote:
the best thread I've seen in a long time!

edit:: have to go dig up my old lighting text books

Word! Good job Anthony!

TheMakeupman wrote:
I love you guys !
I thought I'd try to be a little more helpfull than I feel I have been of late

And YES Jordan ...lol    my spelling suck! ha ha ha

Forgiven:)

RYDER make-up labs wrote:
I love this subject and I'd like to contribute.

With more photographers shooting digital now, color temperature can easily be adjusted in post.

When working with motion picture film, the film will be rated tungsten (warm) or daylight (cool). Filters are added to lenses to alter the color temperature. The camera assistant places a piece of tape on the side of the camera with the filter names being used on the lens. Familiarize yourself with the film stocks and filters used for camera so that you don't bother the DP with questions. The camera department is very busy and don't want to hold your hand. For instance if the tape on the camera says 85, the filter is very warm. Cameras also use lens filters for diffusion. If you see 1/4 Pro Mist on a piece of tape... there will be light diffusion on the camera making the image softer. There may be more than one filter on the camera. It is easy to see the filters being used on the camera if you look at the lens.

Filters are placed in front of lights to correct the color temperature and to diffuse light. HMI lights are high color temperature (daylight). The color temperature can be lowered by placing a warm gel in front of the light, such as CTO or 85. Tungsten lights are low color temperature. The color temperature can be changed by placing a blue gel in front of the light. You can easily see the gels being used in front of a light.

Many times early in my career, I tried to alter the make-up to compensate for bright light and other problems. I found that when my actors walked into a shadow the adjustment was way over the top. Be careful! When you are working on your first few films the camera department is probably just learning as well. Try not to change make-up for lighting if you can avoid it.

This is great info as well.  Just to clarify a bit:  there are two types of filters and gells.  One is colored and corrects the temperature of the light (warm to cool) by scientifically callibrated percentages.  The others are clear or white (ie they don't affect the color of the light) and are used to alter the intensity of the light, usually making it more diffused, sometimes polarizing the light and there are probably other ones that I don't even know what they do.  Again, scientifically callibrated to alter a percentage of the light waves passing through.  Two pieces of 1/4 diffusion gels layered on top of each other is equal to one piece of 1/2. 

But in regards to "bothering" the camera department.  Yes they are very busy on set... but don't get all up in their lens looking for filters without asking first.  These people are rabidly defensive of the physical camera itself (uh, broken camera=no movie) and are arguably the most important crew on set.  Your best bet is to discuss the lighting with the DP BEFOREHAND especially in regards to film or tape stock being used and the general lighting concept.  Ask about special filters also beforehand and then PAY ATTENTION on set to the camera department.  All this stuff gets announced within the camera dept. so if you're paying attention you will know when the lens is getting changed or they add a filter.  If you have a quick question the guy/gal with the camera report will have all the details noted down and you can get the info from them without going near the camera or bothering the DP.

Cynthia ORourke wrote:
But in regards to "bothering" the camera department.  Yes they are very busy on set... but don't get all up in their lens looking for filters without asking first.  These people are rabidly defensive of the physical camera itself (uh, broken camera=no movie) and are arguably the most important crew on set.  Your best bet is to discuss the lighting with the DP BEFOREHAND especially in regards to film or tape stock being used and the general lighting concept.  Ask about special filters also beforehand and then PAY ATTENTION on set to the camera department.  All this stuff gets announced within the camera dept. so if you're paying attention you will know when the lens is getting changed or they add a filter.  If you have a quick question the guy/gal with the camera report will have all the details noted down and you can get the info from them without going near the camera or bothering the DP.

Bad idea... here's why.

Color temperature is measured on the Kelvin scale. As the time of day changes the color temperature changes. The crew constantly changes gels, filters and film stock to maintain image continuity. This does not affect make-up! Don't make any changes because the camera changes a filter. Look at the monitor and if necessary ask if you can look through the lens for a close up. All information on film and filters is clearly marked on the side of the camera. If you ask the camera department what film and filter they are using, you'll look a little silly. Ask any questions you need to ask the DP at the production meeting. The best question to ask is, "Is there anything about the look and feel of the project that might affect the make-up?". Remember when you are on set, what you see is not what the camera see's... Watch the monitor.

Jessica Jean Myers wrote:
I know this was mentioned before but I can't remember the exact name - there was a book that was mentioned to be helpful for lighting in Fashion. 

The Lighting Cookbook or something like that?

Thought it might help to bring that one up again.

yeah, The Lighting Cookbook is the name, great read......

thanks so much anthony!

xx

RYDER make-up labs wrote:

Bad idea... here's why.

Color temperature is measured on the Kelvin scale. As the time of day changes the color temperature changes. The crew constantly changes gels, filters and film stock to maintain image continuity. This does not affect make-up! Don't make any changes because the camera changes a filter. Look at the monitor and if necessary ask if you can look through the lens for a close up. All information on film and filters is clearly marked on the side of the camera. If you ask the camera department what film and filter they are using, you'll look a little silly. Ask any questions you need to ask the DP at the production meeting. The best question to ask is, "Is there anything about the look and feel of the project that might affect the make-up?". Remember when you are on set, what you see is not what the camera see's... Watch the monitor.

Which part is a bad idea?  Paying attention on set, or noting and understanding filter changes as they happen?  I never said to change the makeup.  And I don't think the AC is going to look at you funny if you inquire what filter they are using now.  I HAVE gotten funny looks for getting to close to the camera without permission.  I was simply stating that the information exists in other places besides the side of the camera.  I think we are otherwise in agreement that the discussions with the DP should take place prior to shooting.

Cynthia ORourke wrote:
Which part is a bad idea?  Paying attention on set, or noting and understanding filter changes as they happen?  I never said to change the makeup.  And I don't think the AC is going to look at you funny if you inquire what filter they are using now.  I HAVE gotten funny looks for getting to close to the camera without permission.  I was simply stating that the information exists in other places besides the side of the camera.  I think we are otherwise in agreement that the discussions with the DP should take place prior to shooting.

All of the information is written on tape on the side of the camera. You don't have to get in the way to see it. If you are suggesting that an artist should ask what filter is on the camera... that question would have to be asked many times per day. If you ask that question you look like you don't know what you're doing. The information is on the camera so questions don't need to be asked. Sorry

The Alternative Image  wrote:
Interesting, the different light modifiers ie soft, hard etc will effect makeup, but I think warm or cold lights should not efect the colour, the photographer should colour balance to bring this to nutrual, unless the intension was to have a warm feel like sunset etc.

Trust me...it affects color. If the shot goes too warm, a green shadow (for example) may look brown. When you neutralize the shot, the green tones won't pull back out completely, and you'll end up with a khaki color. If the light is intentionally directed a bit more neutral or cool, your green will pull less brown/gold and will pull more green or green/blue in the final shot. A lot of this can be fixed in post, but in most instances, the makeup isn't brought back to it's original tones.

LisaJohnson wrote:
On this topic - how did you go about testing for all these incidents?  Did you set a time with certain photographers to collaborate and learn or did you learn as you went? 

Other makeup artists please feel free to chime in too.

I'm thinking of setting up a studio day each month with a local photographer for this kind of testing.  Might be worth getting a few models for this..different skintones, hair color etc. too.

If you can find a photographer willing to do that, that's an awesome idea.

A lot of it comes from experience. I always keep an eye on what the photographer is up to, and how the shots come out in relation to what colors I applied. At this point, I can usually predict how a color or skin tone will appear on camera, so I compensate accordingly.

RYDER make-up labs wrote:

All of the information is written on tape on the side of the camera. You don't have to get in the way to see it.

I guess you have better eyesight then I do.  Or you've worked with bigger cameras.  The ones I have experience with usually don't have room for every filter, lens, and lighting change to be marked on the side.  That's what the camera report is for.

If you are suggesting that an artist should ask what filter is on the camera... that question would have to be asked many times per day. If you ask that question you look like you don't know what you're doing. The information is on the camera so questions don't need to be asked. Sorry

I'm suggesting it's well worth the artists time to pay attention to what is going on in the camera department.  I think an artist pretending to know or understand more than they do is quite a bit more annoying than asking a thoughtful question or two.

I'm not really sure why this has turned into a debate when basically we are in agreement?

Cynthia ORourke wrote:
I'm not really sure why this has turned into a debate when basically we are in agreement?

Cynthia... I think your work is great and you have great intensions. Occasionally veteran artists come to the forums to try and give some useful information to people that really need it. I don't want to get into an argument. I have 30 years experience as a department head. Hopefully you will find some useful information in my contribution instead of trying to prove that you are smarter than me.