brancifortography wrote:
wait... let me get this straight. this is a made up club of photographers that are WILLING to give away shoots for free.
i have a few ethical questions.

1. is there a reciprocal "LIST" for models willing to work with new photographers?
i mean it the same thing, i would be very surprised, actually, i would be startled to find a group of dedicated "models" that will shoot with any photographer or (fauxtographers) just to gain experience behind the camera.
2. young photographers buy equipment, eventually, getting to the point in their young career to charge clients and models to photograph them and support themselves. yet, this group is expected to give away the talent and the model benefits from it.
3. i dont see the benefit for photographers. what i do see is the opportunity for GWC's to prey on new women and try to get as much of the clothing of as possible. the girl doesnt know any different, and that is the cycle of this glam business where male photographers take advantage of new girls by telling them what they want to hear, shoot some suggestive stuff, show their "peers".

i really think that if there is to be a group of mentoring, then models should pay a reduced amount and models need to give photographers the same courtesy.

you get what you pay for when something is free.

I'm an active LIST member, as well as one of the Top Drawer members. Although I'm sure you mean very well (I can definitely read the passion in your words), I think you have the wrong impression about the aim of The LIST. Let me try to answer your questions:

1. There is no list of experienced models willing to work with new photographers, although it's a great idea on paper. However, the likely problem is that these experienced models would stand to risk more, in the sense that the quality of the images from the new photographer sessions would not be up to the standards the models are used to. And of course, these images would end up all over the internet.

Another issue is that there's a lot more models than photographers, particularly good ones. It's simply much easier for a photographer, new or experienced, to find someone to photograph than the other way around. Hence the more pressing need for a vetted group of experienced photographers to help new models get their portfolio started.

2. Yes, the group members are expected to donate time to shoot new models for free when time allows. It was clear that you worded this point as if these photographers should feel taken advantage of when asked to do this. Yet, no one forces people to join The LIST. In fact, although people ask daily to become members, they must go through a vetting process - it's not automatic by any means. It's a bit of a badge of honor for members to be viewed by their peers as experienced and competent enough to help a new model get some reasonably strong images in their portfolio.

And that's the point of all this - LIST members enjoy giving back to the community, when time allows: I am a full time photographer, and I also own and run a busy commercial studio. However, I find the time. I truly enjoy the positive feeling I get when allowing a new, promising model the chance to experience what would have been a major expense, for free. It's also quite refreshing to witness their excitement and wonder at everything; to see them try really hard to get it right, and soak up all my suggestions for future shoots. This is a bit of a dream for them, and I do my small part to accommodate this.

It's like giving a gift. Don't you like giving gifts to people? It feels good.

3. In response to your final question: It's ironic that you say this, because one of the unspoken, but obvious reasons, for The LIST, is to avoid (or at least minimize) exactly what you point out. On of the goals of The LIST is to allow new models to shoot with someone who's less likely to be a 'GWC'. We want to help new models get started on the right foot, and also gain a basic understanding of shoot etiquette, both from model and photographer. The LIST is not a perfect group of course, but it's vetted, and the chances are pretty good that a new model will have a positive experience. There are always going to be bad apples, however, but I really don't think it's realistic to believe The LIST is comprised of GWC's, waiting to prey on young women.

In regards to your final statement: Perhaps you have a point, but I don't know what drove you to think of it. Are you a full time photographer? A hobbiest? Many LIST members are also hobbiests (talented, however!), and never charge for photography. Ever. They do it for the love of it. Should they charge new models some sort of rate? Sometimes it's not about the money, and I think that's the point you've missed in your observations.

brancifortography wrote:
wait... let me get this straight. this is a made up club of photographers that are WILLING to give away shoots for free.
i have a few ethical questions.

Perhaps you can explain to us how any of your questions or statements of opinion pertain to ethics. You shouted a key word: "WILLING" but then go on to suggest that somehow people are being abused???

While your advice is welcome, we have been doing this for a while:

We are approaching the 200th iteration of the Newbie Model of the Week Contest and recently completed the third Newbie Model of the Year Contest

Retention rates among models involved in these programs has been much higher than that in the general population here - in fact for winners have been in the neighborhood of 85%. You are apparently new here but if you take a look around you will find that retention rates for new models are generally extremely low - the thousands of dead model profiles here are a result of this.

brancifortography wrote:
1. is there a reciprocal "LIST" for models willing to work with new photographers?
i mean it the same thing, i would be very surprised, actually, i would be startled to find a group of dedicated "models" that will shoot with any photographer or (fauxtographers) just to gain experience behind the camera.

AFAIK there is not. David makes some great points. Your implication that this absence somehow negates our program is confusing at best.

You should also be aware that you are free to invest your time, money and talent in creating and maintaining any sort of program that you feel would be beneficial.

Just as we have.

As they say, anything else is just talk.

brancifortography wrote:
2. young photographers buy equipment, eventually, getting to the point in their young career to charge clients and models to photograph them and support themselves. yet, this group is expected to give away the talent and the model benefits from it.

Nothing is "expected" of anyone beyond the commitment that volunteers WILLINGLY make when they apply. Take a look at the enormous talent pool in the Top Drawer. These are obviously very busy and successful people. I'm proud that they have chosen to support these programs. They donate their time as they are able: through shooting, voting and advice as well as providing examples to which we can all aspire.

I personally have a lifetime of investment in photography and feel that I have earned the right to use that experience in any way that I see fit.

Just as you can.

brancifortography wrote:
3. i dont see the benefit for photographers. what i do see is the opportunity for GWC's to prey on new women and try to get as much of the clothing of as possible. the girl doesnt know any different, and that is the cycle of this glam business where male photograhers take advantage of new girls by telling them what they want to hear, shoot some suggestive stuff, show their "peers".

The fact that you don't see something is not even a hint of proof that it doesn't exist. FWIW I have had images that were the result of shoots with newbies published and hung in galleries. I have also benefited from the loyalty of models who went on to become solid, working freelancers or exceptionally talented hobbyists.

What you do choose to see is more a reflection of your biases than it is any form of reality.

brancifortography wrote:
i really think that if there is to be a group of mentoring, then models should pay a reduced amount and models need to give photographers the same courtesy.

Something that so many "don't work for free" activists here seem incapable of understanding is the concept of barter. Yet you virtually state it here. If each partner in a transaction gives value in exchange for the value the other provides ... how could anything be more obvious?

On your suggestion of reduced rates, below you draw a direct correlation between monetary payment and benefit. Given your feelings on this, why would you want to cheat a new model by giving her less value by reducing your rates?

Wouldn't a new model deserve to have the full benefit of your work? Going by your "you get what you pay for" mantra you reduce the benefit delivered by discounting the money paid for your services.

Perhaps you should consider even providing extra value by charging new models more than your usual rates.

brancifortography wrote:
you get what you pay for when something is free.

Above you hinted at the old MM saw that a photographer's investment in equipment somehow entitles them to payment. Now you trot out the old "you get what you pay for" line.

This always sounds so good that we want to think it's true. It isn't. Consider one example:

The average price of Ford branded autos is much lower than that of the average price of the Jaguar brand. Not long ago I read that Ford has pushed Toyota out of the #1 spot in quality and customer satisfaction. In the same report, Jaguar was dead last. You get what you pay for?

Do you really think that a model who works with a David Hirsh (or any of our Top Drawer volunteers) who donates his or her time receives less value than does one who pays some arbitrary guy that thinks his expensive gear entitles him to be paid???

brancifortography wrote:
by the way, no one should get pissed off, this is too stupid for any rants.

Since you are new to these forums: In future when you realize after the fact that a rant is "too stupid" you can remove it or make it less stupid by using the "Edit" button.

The highest form of goodness is like water.
Water knows how to benefit all things without striving with them.
It stays in places loathed by all men.
Therefore, it comes near the Tao.

I am able to build an inexperienced 'poser' into a uniquely personal and deeply expressive set of photographs within an hour, in extremely demanding conditions (in a shower or body of water).  The participants gain wide exposure through the facebook page: http://facebook.com/mindaswater as they are guaranteed at least one photo uploaded to the gallery from their shoot to promote the cause of water development in Africa.  I believe my esthetic promotes healthy body image and acceptance, as well as portrays the subjects in a unique way while illustrating their connection to the wider human experience.  I hope you see me as a valuable addition to the list.  I travel through the US, SE Asia, and Europe

Stefi Jade - Cherry Valley, Illinois
Shoreline Photos - New Haven, Connecticut
Marcus Van Lyden - London, England
Photo-Graff Photography - East Peoria, Illinois
UBU Photography - Murfreesboro, Tennessee
DEREX Art - Garfield, New Jersey
Harmon Photography - Lake Worth, Florida
Chris Jabbal - Irvine, California

With the help of Rich I hope to be able to  clean up theLIST OP within the next week or so.

As always, many thanks to all for your contributions and participation ... and special thanks to our Top Drawer members for continuing to invest their time!
  -Tom

brancifortography wrote:
btw, models either have it or they don't.
just like photographers.
you cant teach taste and you cant teach posing, body control, and the basics.

Not true. I've been on MM for less than a year, and I've seen portfolios go from terrible to amazing in a matter of months; which proves, it can be taught.  My portfolio is a good example.  Many thanks to the amazing photographers and artists who volunteered their time and didn't insist on charging me for their services.  In return, they got some amazing images out of the deal as well as my eternal gratitude. WIN/WIN. If any one of them ever needed anything, I would not hesitate to help them out, I consider them friends.   

You also forget that a large percentage of models/photographers on MM are hobbyists.  For some, it's more about making amazing images than it is about collecting money, although you may be too cynical to understand that.   

If you're only in it for the money, that's cool, but don't begrudge those who are kind enough to volunteer their time and help others out.  If you don't like this program, don't participate. Besides, you're way outnumbered. I don't know what you thought you were going to accomplish by starting a rant in a forum where people have voluntarily chosen to participate in a program they believe in.