Gaze at Photography wrote:
{{ring ring.......  ring ring...}}

Hello 
Hey JoJo
Yea, I'm logged in, why?
uh huh...
uh huh...
that's funny as hell...  OK... 


OK.. OK..

JoJo asked if any of you guys want to moderate the contests.... 

I know.. Funny right...  {{slaps knee}}

I'm dying here...   this is great stuff.... 

_________________________________________________________

Stop all the whiny bullshit.

In or Out

STFU

Period

(It's a fucking on-line contest for boo boo's sake)

Totally agree. The contests are a trivial amusement that a modestly few of us participae in. It is not worth all the hot air and angst wasted on nit picking about the rules.

Like zooming I too have been DQ'd a few times over the last year or so. And so what? You enter a different acceptable image and move on. Naturaly I did not feel my images violated the rules becasue I would not have entered them otherwise. Unlike some I do not deliberately try to bait the mods by submitting iffy images time after time. It is not wise.

Interpreting the rules in difficult enought for them and constantly second guessing them is useless. It is just an online contest... hardly worht all the uproar over a disqualification or two.

If it was just "a disqualification or two"  I wouldn't have posted. This kind of thing gives one a "jacket" as a troublemaker/offender. That shouldn't be a consequence of contributing to a contest. After getting kicked out of the contests, account termination would be next. That would not be trivial.

zoomring photo wrote:
Well, whaddayaknow. People are guessing about what the rules mean. As anyone who reads this thread knows, I've repeatedly asked for a verbal articulation of where the fine line is.  We know it's not something bright-line like "no open leg" . There's a finer line somewhere beyond that, but where is it?

The responses have been either silence, cryptic references to car keys, or "you know perfectly well". I don't. Just when I think I know where the line is, I see an image that crosses that line. Where is it?

I guessed wrong recently, as well as two other times out of dozens of entries since August and was barred from entering the contest. Also threatened with other dire consequences should I again offend. An attempt to respond with humor rather than anger and to apologize for the mistake was characterized as "cynicism".

While I'm sure I will be accused of whining about the ejection, I am writing to seriously suggest that things need to be done differently.

I thought that to enter a photo that took a lot of money and effort to create was to contribute to the site. Instead, it's more like engaging in an unwinnable power struggle. It's hardly worth submitting an entry if one is more placing one's neck in a figurative guillotene.

I understand that there must be rules and the rules have to be enforced. I also understand that moderating a contest is a big job - I'd never volunteer for it. These things can be recognized while also treating members with respect and appreciation for their work,  without creating an autocratic regime and with clearly articulated rules.

Let the flaming begin.

Let’s clear up a few inconsistencies in your statement.

1. you were not barred from the contest… you were suspended for 15 days.

2. you were not suspended for “guessing wrong”… you were suspended because you chose to submit an image even Stevie Wonder could see was an absolute violation of MM’s rules.


You want “clearly articulated rules”?
Start writing… and when you have clearly articulated each and every conceivable scenario, right down to counting the acceptable number of hair follicles per centimeter for each and every possible infraction…. now condense these several thousand pages of articulation down to no more than 200 words.

Bet you a bag of donuts that the 200 words you finally condense it all down into look strangely like the rules we already have


Ever wonder how 100+/- people manage to understand the existing rules every day and have their entries accepted… but you can’t seem to figure the rules out?
Maybe the rules are not the problem

A parallel…
Look at traffic accidents – the problem is almost always traced back to just one thing… it’s always a loose nut – the loose nut behind the wheel.

Quit being the “loose nut”… follow the rules and we will get along just famously

zoomring photo wrote:
>>You want “clearly articulated rules”?
Start writing… and when you have clearly articulated each and every conceivable scenario, right down to counting the acceptable number of hair follicles per centimeter for each and every possible infraction…. now condense these several thousand pages of articulation down to no more than 200 words.

Aside from not being the lawgiver here, I don't claim to be able to do such a thing. All the King's horses and several hundred federal judges can't do it with regard to the comprable "lascivious exhibition of the genitals" language in federal porno law. That leaves the choices of having a bright line rule such as "no open leg" or just leaving it up to taste and the judgment of the adult voters.

There are several (understandible) bright line rules in force, such as no sex acts and no penetration. The choice has correctly been made not to have a no open leg rule.

What's permissible within those parameters has me and a lot of other people confused precisely because it can't be defined by words. That confusion has been expressed by many users over the last few yerars. That being so, there's no call for slapping people around when they don't see where the line is in the moderator's head.

I repeat my suggestions for setting up a peer panel including photographers.

Stats for the December 14 2012 PotD18+ - both male and female
PotD18+F – 104 images in the contest
PotD18+M – 29 images in the contest

Number of entries disqualified from PotD18+F for ANY image based infraction – 1
Number of entries disqualified from PotD18+F for ANY image based infraction – 0

133 people were able to fathom the rules
1 person was not able to fathom the rules
and
1 zoomring can’t figure them out.

Wake up and smell the coffee!!!!
99.25% of the people understand are able to abide by the rules.
You can't.

There are 100+/- examples of what is acceptable in the contest EVERY damn day.
Learn from these examples.

zoomring photo wrote:
I repeat my suggestions for setting up a peer panel including photographers.

I would not support that idea for one second.  I very much like the idea of having one person, or at least a very small number of people, interpreting the rules for the competitions.  That is the only way to have consistency.  I think most people who vote in the competitions (not the ones who complain here) are very happy with the competition as it is run now.

And Jojo's figures seem to indicate that the vast majority of people understand the rules anyway.

Kent Art Photography wrote:
And Jojo's figures seem to indicate that the vast majority of people understand the rules anyway.

And that would seem to be a tiny minority of MM members........

Mark Leighton wrote:

And that would seem to be a tiny minority of MM members........

Anything to back that up?  JoJo produced figures.  Can you produce anything?

Kent Art Photography wrote:

Anything to back that up?  JoJo produced figures.  Can you produce anything?

It is glaring obvious. Look at the number of MM members and then look at the number participating in the contests.

Kent Art Photography wrote:

Anything to back that up?  JoJo produced figures.  Can you produce anything?

There are over half a million members and at most only a few hundred participate in the contests.

Nice to have an exclusive little club, right?

Mark Leighton wrote:
It is glaring obvious. Look at the number of MM members and then look at the number participating in the contests.

What sort of quantity is "glaringly obvious?"

If you want more members to participate in the contests then the way to go about is not to continually whinge and whine about the contest but to promote it positively.

The complainers should try abiding by the rules as (almost) everyone else seems to do.  And if they can't do that, then they shouldn't enter pics.

Kent Art Photography wrote:
If you want more members to participate in the contests then the way to go about is not to continually whinge and whine about the contest but to promote it positively.

The complainers should try abiding by the rules as (almost) everyone else seems to do.  And if they can't do that, then they shouldn't enter pics.

No, you are wrong.  The way to improve the participation in the contests is to IMPROVE them. I have made several suggestions regarding this in the past, both in this forum and in the site-related forum. 

People will not "abide" by rules if they are not clear and not consistently applied.  The fact that the people currently entering the contests have followed the rules is fatuous - of course they have otherwise they wouldn't be there! As is pointed out by a previous poster, the numbers entering the contest are a tiny minority - maybe there is no general appetite for the contests or maybe they could be made more appealing - but continually insisting that everything in the garden is rosy and that people should not complain - is no way to improve things.  There is absolutely nothing negative about suggesting changes and making constructive criticism.

Constantly moaning that others have a different viewpoint is in my view, far more negative.

Mark Leighton wrote:
No, you are wrong.  The way to improve the participation in the contests is to IMPROVE them. I have made several suggestions regarding this in the past, both in this forum and in the site-related forum. 

People will not "abide" by rules if they are not clear and not consistently applied.  The fact that the people currently entering the contests have followed the rules is fatuous - of course they have otherwise they wouldn't be there! As is pointed out by a previous poster, the numbers entering the contest are a tiny minority - maybe there is no general appetite for the contests or maybe they could be made more appealing - but continually insisting that everything in the garden is rosy and that people should not complain - is no way to improve things.  There is absolutely nothing negative about suggesting changes and making constructive criticism.

Constantly moaning that others have a different viewpoint is in my view, far more negative.

Tell you what Mark (and zoomring), if you are dissatisfied with the rules as they are write a viable alternative and send it to me via CAM.

Simply saying "I disagree with JoJo's ruling" or "the rules are not clear" is not making a suggestion and is far from constructive criticism.

If you feel the contest would benefit from your rule clarifications then submit these rule clarifications in CAM... don't just complain that someone else is not making the rules clearer.

JoJo wrote:

Tell you what Mark (and zoomring), if you are dissatisfied with the rules as they are write a viable alternative and send it to me via CAM.

Simply saying "I disagree with JoJo's ruling" or "the rules are not clear" is not making a suggestion and is far from constructive criticism.

If you feel the contest would benefit from your rule clarifications then submit these rule clarifications in CAM... don't just complain that someone else is not making the rules clearer.

I pay to use this site. I don't expect to have to work for it also.  If you make a complaint about a meal in a restaurant, you wouldn't expect them to tell you to in the kitchen and cook your own.

Incidentally JoJo, I have made several suggestions as to how things could be improved, contest wise and site wise.

I am not saying it is easy to write your rules - though avoiding jargon would be a good start - but if this is a professionally run site there must be access to those of with legal experience perhaps that could make them at least make sense.

I am also not saying that it is easy, or indeed fair, to expect one person to run all the contests - I have posted as such previously - but a lack of resource in this area will of course effect how much attention applying the rules consistently can be given.

Really I do think MM needs to get out of the mindset of asking members to do their jobs because we have the temerity to be critical.

And sorry, but my criticisms were constructive taken in context that I HAVE made suggestions, several times.  If something needs fixing you have to first point out what is wrong.

Mark Leighton wrote:
I pay to use this site. I don't expect to have to work for it also.  If you make a complaint about a meal in a restaurant, you wouldn't expect them to tell you to in the kitchen and cook your own.

Incidentally JoJo, I have made several suggestions as to how things could be improved, contest wise and site wise.

I am not saying it is easy to write your rules - though avoiding jargon would be a good start - but if this is a professionally run site there must be access to those of with legal experience perhaps that could make them at least make sense.

I am also not saying that it is easy, or indeed fair, to expect one person to run all the contests - I have posted as such previously - but a lack of resource in this area will of course effect how much attention applying the rules consistently can be given.

Really I do think MM needs to get out of the mindset of asking members to do their jobs because we have the temerity to be critical.

And sorry, but my criticisms were constructive taken in context that I HAVE made suggestions, several times.  If something needs fixing you have to first point out what is wrong.

Anyone have any idea how many brain cells it takes to retort such a comprehensive assembly?

The point is lost.  To bitch about anything without viable solutions offered is just whining. 

Those that participate have an understanding that if it doesn't fit, it doesn't get in.  When we see a DQ, we accept it and move on.

It's a pretty simple process unless you want to complicate it, which people do daily.

I used to be one of those people.  I bitched once or thrice.  But, I learned.  I cope.

I recommend that if anyone can't cope, to ask questions. If you still can't grasp the concept after asking your Q's, sit back and watch for a while... learn...  then overtake it with your talent, not your bitching.

There is no whining at MM.  Let your work speak.

But then again...

Mark Leighton wrote:
I pay to use this site.

You may pay to use this site… but you are not permitted to .

Mark Leighton wrote:
If you make a complaint about a meal in a restaurant, you wouldn't expect them to tell you to in the kitchen and cook your own.

True… if you were to politely voice your complaint I am sure the manager of the restaurant would accommodate you.

But if every time you walked into that same restaurant you complained loudly and abusively about anything and everything, to the point that other patrons complained every time you opened your mouth, I am sure the manager would not-so-politely request that you remove yourself from the premises and to not come back.

The manager of this restaurant is tired of your complaining and whining.
Stop it.

If you wish to enter the contests follow the rules.

JoJo wrote:

Mark Leighton wrote:
I pay to use this site.

You may pay to use this site… but you are not permitted to abuse this site.

True… if you were to politely voice your complaint I am sure the manager of the restaurant would accommodate you.

But if every time you walked into that same restaurant you complained loudly and abusively about anything and everything, to the point that other patrons complained every time you opened your mouth, I am sure the manager would not-so-politely request that you remove yourself from the premises and to not come back.

The manager of this restaurant is tired of your complaining and whining.
Stop it.

If you wish to enter the contests follow the rules.

Amen and Amen. Secula seculorum, amen.

zoomring photo wrote:
I made a couple of specific suggestions, apparently they didn't register. End the autocracy.  A peer panel to do advance review of uncertain submissions and significant moderator actions. Above all a change of attitude toward users.

When you become a 'user' and follow the rules, you will see the attitude of those running this contest and those entering this contest change towards you.

At this moment in time you are not a 'user', you are a suspended 'rule breaker'.

If you continue with your disregard of the rules you will become a banned 'rule breaker'.

CSW Photography wrote:
It's hard to follow the rules when they are inconsistently followed.  I continue to see images winning the contests that clearly disregard the written rules.  Because these images are allowed to be entered (and they win)...that leaves others to post similar style images...only to have them rejected. 

Consistency in applying the rulrs is the key and would eliminate any grey areas.

When challenged, most people can't point to examples of the alleged inconsistentcy.  Care to be an exception?

CSW Photography wrote:
Here's an example:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/contests/po … view/55218
18+ link

One of the main rules is not to focus on genitals in the image.  This image only shows genitals...breasts, labia, vulva, etc.

This image is acceptable.

CSW Photography wrote:
I've submitted images that show open leg, include the full model's body...all within an appropriate setting to only have it rejected for focusing on genitals.

Your 2 recent disqualifications... (and the pics will not be in this thread)
Nov 22 - the genitalia and anus are subject, the object, the focus, the focal point  and the emphasis of the whole image - disqualified
Dec 15 - the genitalia positioned under spout of a bathtub with no water running - the genitalia is the subject, the object, the focus, the focal point and the emphasis of the whole image - disqualified


Compare your 2 disqualified images to the one you cite...
... your 2 images are "in your face" with the genitalia
... the image you cite is a bodyscape

Gaze at Photography wrote:
To bitch about anything without viable solutions offered is just whining.

You have spectacularly missed the point.  I HAVE offered solutions - on several occasions, on this thread and the site suggestions thread.

I do not have the experience or training required to write legally binding rules of operation for an internet site. If I tried they may well be even less effective than those here on MM.

I am also not qualified or able enough to run the country of the place I live in or come from.  But it is not going to stop me being critical of things that I disagree with or think are wrong.

JoJo wrote:
You may pay to use this site… but you are not permitted to
[

Would you care to enlighten me as to where in my post I suggested that I was? I have not suggested that I or anyone else should be able to break your rules.  I have suggested that they are not all well written and could be improved and that there could be a better system to ensure the rules are consistently applied.

So suggesting that things can be improved (and providing examples of how in some cases) is now to be interpreted as continually complaining?  Or is this because I will now be brow beaten by your veiled threats to ban me because I would like things to be better?

JoJo wrote:
But if every time you walked into that same restaurant you complained loudly and abusively about anything and everything, to the point that other patrons complained every time you opened your mouth, I am sure the manager would not-so-politely request that you remove yourself from the premises and to not come back.

The manager of this restaurant is tired of your complaining and whining.
Stop it.

If you wish to enter the contests follow the rules.

Firstly, I do not complain about MM "every time" (your words) I post in the forums. Secondly, I have made suggestions to improve the service to members, politely and including comments that indicate I am not blaming ANY individual for what I f regard as shortcomings in the service to members.

Thirdly, please enlighten me again where I suggested that I wanted to break the contest rules. If I wish to enter the contests I will follow the rules to the best of my ability to interpret them.

My main reason for positing in this thread is to point out that the attitude of dismissing suggestions and complaints made in good faith about the contests and other areas of the site by attacking the individual by labeling them complainers.

I do hope I am wrong in interpreting your last comments as a threat to stop me fro me disagreeing with you?

CSW Photography wrote:
Consistency in applying the rulrs is the key and would eliminate any grey areas.

Oh please, eliminate the gray areas?
We are talking about 18+/erotic art - the whole thing is one great gray area!

You can not reduce art down to something that will fit into some nice neat mathematical calculation.

Wake up, this is exactly why the rules are written loosely - to provide as much lateral movement as possible.

You want specific, intricate and precise rules written out in legal format?
You want to know that 8 or fewer pubic hairs are permitted but 9 or more are prohibited?

Even with exactly and precisely worded rules and mathematical calculations we're still going to get some bone-head entering a pic with 8 pubic hairs showing AND some stubble.
Is stubble hair?
Golly gee, I don't know - let's consult paragraph 37 on page 19 of the pubic hair rule - there's the answer!!! Pubic stubble is considered pubic hair provided the stubble is between 0.25mm and 1.0mm in length.
Out comes the microscope and the team of "official pubic hair measurers"
Yup, we were right, the pubic stubble is 0.28775mm - image disqualified.

So when I disqualify this pic the complaints roll in, complete with sworn affidavits and notarized statements from experts at MIT stating that the pubic stubble was actually only 0.24875mm in length.

Do you want to split hairs stubble here?


Hey, I'm a baseball umpire - "I calls dem as I sees dem"

Mark Leighton wrote:
.

Mr. Leighton,
You have taken this matter to CAM.
Please cease all discussion of this matter here in this thread.

JoJo wrote:
When you become a 'user' and follow the rules, you will see the attitude of those running this contest and those entering this contest change towards you.

At this moment in time you are not a 'user', you are a suspended 'rule breaker'.

If you continue with your disregard of the rules you will become a banned 'rule breaker'.

zoomring photo wrote:
I made a couple of specific suggestions, apparently they didn't register. End the autocracy.  A peer panel to do advance review of uncertain submissions and significant moderator actions. Above all a change of attitude toward users.

JoJo wrote:
When you become a 'user' and follow the rules, you will see the attitude of those running this contest and those entering this contest change towards you.

At this moment in time you are not a 'user', you are a suspended 'rule breaker'.

If you continue with your disregard of the rules you will become a banned 'rule breaker'.

zoomring photo wrote:
And THAT is the problem, not the solution. Make a suggestion, be told "you are not a user" i.e., a person. Get a threat.

It would be better to make people feel welcome to contribute to a community. Nothing personal intended, but the autocracy needs to end.

Let's look at your suggestions...

1 - End the autocracy
I have people that assist in the operation of the contests - they have chosen to not be public because, quite bluntly, they don't want the abuse heaped on them too.
As the Contest Admin I report directly to the two Site Admins and directly to IB.
So much your autocracy theory

2 - A peer panel to do advance review of uncertain submissions.
This has been around for many years and is used regularly.

3 - Above all a change of attitude toward users.
Ever notice that if during a traffic stop you are polite to a cop, the cop will reciprocate.
If you are not polite and cooperative you end up in cuffs in the back seat of his cruiser.
Same applies here – you get what you dish out.

4 – Make the rules easier to comprehend
Well 98+% of the members don’t seem to have too much problem with the rules.


You have discovered that when you enter an image that is in violation of the rules the image will be disqualified. At least half of the recent participants in this thread have had an image disqualified at some point in time.
You have also discovered that when you consistently and persistently enter images that violate the rules you will be consistently disqualified.
You have further discovered that when you enter an image that is in absolute and complete violation of the rules, coupled with all of your other violations, that you will be suspended from the contests for 15 days.

Your lesson here… don’t enter images that you KNOW will be disqualified.

zoomring photo wrote:
>> It is just an online contest... hardly worht all the uproar over a disqualification or two.

If it was just "a disqualification or two"  I wouldn't have posted. This kind of thing gives one a "jacket" as a troublemaker/offender. That shouldn't be a consequence of contributing to a contest. After getting kicked out of the contests, account termination would be next. That would not be trivial.

In an example given of an 18+plus winner there is a lot displayed and there is wide latitude and, perhaps you should consider that you should be happy with that, as this is really a small contest with no prizes. I haven't seen anyone put up a 18+ win and then triumphantly in a marketing annoucement on their website that they won a contest for which they got a gold internet badge and that was all.  You have sweated this moderator on an issue that's not as big as you're making it out to be. She's not paid, if I remember correctly, and even if she is, it doesn't compare to what she makes from modelling.

I think that perspective is something that's important. I spent one day in the MM brig for a comment I made and someone else thought it unjust. I never made it a hue-and-cry moment because when recently asked by the police if I had a criminal record, obviously I lied by omission by not stating that I was in the MM brig for a day.  I may go to the real jail for that, right?

If erotica is your main interest you should just consider how to create great erotic images if you want to make a living at it, or have people pay to buy a print, etc.

Even, if you're right, and you were deeply wronged for been banned from a contest for fifteen days that has no recognition in the world of photography that's just really fun for MM people, I don't know how much closer to that Holy Grail that is the MM badge you're going to get, than you are now.

Try and sell the images. If you sell, that's better than a gold internet badge. Move on McDuff, I say. Shoot models, not moderators.