Photographer
Zealus
Posts: 48
Tampa, Florida, US
I didn't want to hijack the neighboring thread, so I am opening my own.
What exactly is this "kit fee" some people are asking for on a free shoot? I'm trying to understand, as I have a very fortunate position of working for free with a highly professional makeup artist (who also happens to be my lovely wife).
I DON'T want to come across as ignorant or downplay costs (in either time or money) incurred by people collaborating on a shoot, but here's my take on this: TFCD shoots (in my understanding) are put together so that all team members can benefit from it - EVERYONE puts in their time to get pictures they want. It is, therefore, everyone's responsibility to create pictures that would work for everyone's port. I.e. photographer is supposed to do close-ups to feature makeup and hair or accessories for stylist, makeup artist is supposed to create an image that will work for model and so on and so forth.
Now we have one team member (usually it's MUA or hair stylist, but I could be missing someone else here) asking for "kit fee" (whatever it is). It means that out of whole team that single member will walk away not only with pictures, but also with extra money in their pocket. Who's money will that be? Does whole team have to chip in or is it photographer's responsibility? Or model's? Or MUA's? Or stylist?
From the first-hand experience I know that makeup stuff is expensive (I get to pay our bills, so I know). I'm sure hair extensions and other supplies aren't dirt cheap either.
So if it's a Time for CD shoot (notice how there's no money mentioned) then why are we still talking about "kit fee"? How about "camera fee" or "studio fee" or "pizza fee" (ex.: we always order pizza or some other food for our shoots)?
I just want to see a rationale behind this "kit fee" thingy. Thanks all of you who would want to share their opinion!
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
A " kit fee " is what MUA's charge to cover the cost of all of the product they use, over and above what they charge for their time.
Photographer
Digitoxin
Posts: 13456
Denver, Colorado, US
Some MUA's fee that since their makeup is "consumable" they want a kit fee for trade shoots.
I don't like that idea (personally) for a number of reasons having nothing to do with the money itself and don't work with MUAs that require them. But, that is just me. Others will legitimately differ.
Makeup Artist
KJB
Posts: 1184
New York, New York, US
OK, let's nip this in the bud.
FACT: Kit Fees are only applicable to Film & Video production. Whoever started the rumor that it was ok to ask for one in photo work...sorry, you're incorrect and no amount of debate will change that.
Side Note: Requesting a Kit Fee for photo work is just as unprofessional as charging "per face" or "per model"...that's not how it's done. In legitimate professional photo work it's a full or half day rate...nothing else. If a photographer offers you a "per face" or "per model" fee...walk away.
FACT: TFP (I don't miss those days) is exactly what the initials represent...TRADE FOR PICTURES. When you trade your services, no money changes hands. This means NOBODY gets paid ...no matter what it cost them to be there.
FACT: You should only accept TFP work (we like to call it "testing") if the images will upgrade your port. If you already have similar shots, or the photographer's work is not of a better quality than your existing pictures...graciously decline the offer.
You don't have to agree with what I say...just know it's the undeniable, absolute, honest truth coming from a Senior Pro Artist who has been working successfully in this industry for over a quarter of a century.
That said...I'm bowing out of this thread but will return in a few years to see that it is probably still going strong!
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Marisa Ross
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
KJ Bennett Beauty wrote:
OK, let's nip this in the bud.
FACT: Kit Fees are only applicable to Film & Video production. Whoever started the rumor that it was ok to ask for one in photo work...sorry, you're incorrect and no amount of debate will change that.
Side Note: Requesting a Kit Fee for photo work is just as unprofessional as charging "per face" or "per model"...that's not how it's done. In legitimate professional photo work it's a full or half day rate...nothing else. If a photographer offers you a "per face" or "per model" fee...walk away.
FACT: TFP (I don't miss those days) is exactly what the initials represent...TRADE FOR PICTURES. When you trade your services, no money changes hands. This means NOBODY gets paid ...no matter what it cost them to be there.
FACT: You should only accept TFP work (we like to call it "testing") if the images will upgrade your port. If you already have similar shots, or the photographer's work is not of a better quality than your existing pictures...graciously decline the offer.
You don't have to agree with what I say...just know it's the undeniable, absolute, honest truth coming from a Senior Pro Artist who has been working successfully in this industry for over a quarter of a century.
That said...I'm bowing out of this thread but will return in a few years to see that it is probably still going strong! Listen Mr. Bennett! He's extremely well known in our industry and knows what he's talking about! No kit fee ever on TF shoots.
Photographer
ARC LIGHT
Posts: 49
San Francisco, California, US
If you look at the cost of makeup these days along with having a substantial inventory including brushes, eyelashes and other consumables, you can see why established MUA's want more than just another image for their portfolio. They need to eat too.
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Marisa Ross
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
ARC LIGHT wrote:
If you look at the cost of makeup these days along with having a substantial inventory including brushes, eyelashes and other consumables, you can see why established MUA's want more than just another image for their portfolio. They need to eat too. That's why some people will charge a testing rate in addition to their usual day/half day rate. If it's strictly trade, then it's strictly trade and the artist will eat the cost along with everyone else.
Photographer
Michael Zahra
Posts: 1106
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
No kit fee on tf shoots presupposes a pro mua working with a pro photographer and a pro model who all understand the process.
Last time we looked around on MM that wasnt the case.
People will ask what they want to ask, how they want to ask for it, if they get they get, regardless of protocol.
I'm not suprised nor annoyed when a mua asks for a kit fee for a tf shoot. I dont pay for it for a tf shoot, but no harm in asking.
I'm going to start asking for a consumables fee for wear & tear on my shutter, flash tubes, car, finger, biceps, lens cleaning cloth, compressed air, etc.
Photographer
Zealus
Posts: 48
Tampa, Florida, US
George Ruge wrote:
A " kit fee " is what MUA's charge to cover the cost of all of the product they use, over and above what they charge for their time. I wasn't talking about paid shoots, I was specifically talking about TFP/TFCD.
Photographer
Zealus
Posts: 48
Tampa, Florida, US
Vampire Black Cat wrote:
I'm going to start asking for a consumables fee for wear & tear on my shutter, flash tubes, car, finger, biceps, lens cleaning cloth, compressed air, etc. I might add floor tear and wear, as my apartment's floor quality keep getting quite a beating  )
Photographer
Zealus
Posts: 48
Tampa, Florida, US
Makeup By Marisa Ross wrote:
That's why some people will charge a testing rate in addition to their usual day/half day rate. If it's strictly trade, then it's strictly trade and the artist will eat the cost along with everyone else. My point exactly, but some people don't agree with that and I am trying to figure out what's the rationale behind it.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
KJ Bennett Beauty wrote:
OK, let's nip this in the bud.
FACT: Kit Fees are only applicable to Film & Video production. Whoever started the rumor that it was ok to ask for one in photo work...sorry, you're incorrect and no amount of debate will change that.
Side Note: Requesting a Kit Fee for photo work is just as unprofessional as charging "per face" or "per model"...that's not how it's done. In legitimate professional photo work it's a full or half day rate...nothing else. If a photographer offers you a "per face" or "per model" fee...walk away.
FACT: TFP (I don't miss those days) is exactly what the initials represent...TRADE FOR PICTURES. When you trade your services, no money changes hands. This means NOBODY gets paid ...no matter what it cost them to be there.
FACT: You should only accept TFP work (we like to call it "testing") if the images will upgrade your port. If you already have similar shots, or the photographer's work is not of a better quality than your existing pictures...graciously decline the offer.
You don't have to agree with what I say...just know it's the undeniable, absolute, honest truth coming from a Senior Pro Artist who has been working successfully in this industry for over a quarter of a century.
That said...I'm bowing out of this thread but will return in a few years to see that it is probably still going strong! all I see is your opinion.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
why pay a full or half day rate for a mua when the mua will only be doing 1 look for a 3 hour shoot? doesn't seem logical does it?
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Marisa Ross
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Zealus wrote:
My point exactly, but some people don't agree with that and I am trying to figure out what's the rationale behind it. No real rationale. It's likely just new artists are getting wrong information (a lot of that going around MM) and going with the "kit fee" flow.
Makeup Artist
KJB
Posts: 1184
New York, New York, US
xElizabethx wrote:
why pay a full or half day rate for a mua when the mua will only be doing 1 look for a 3 hour shoot? doesn't seem logical does it? Really?
Most people consider a typical work day 8 hours...which would make a half day 4 hours...right?
As far as the disrespectful tone of this comment towards the "worth" of our time and talent...
Makeup Artist
E D A
Posts: 100
New York, New York, US
xElizabethx wrote:
why pay a full or half day rate for a mua when the mua will only be doing 1 look for a 3 hour shoot? doesn't seem logical does it? Because you're there for x amount of hours no matter how many faces you do. Think about it this way:
If you work at McDonalds for an 8 hour shift, but only 3 people come in all day should you be paid only for the 3 people you provided a service for, or should you be paid for the 8 hours you put in sticking around to make sure everything went smoothly? If you had to count on a certain number of people coming in each day you would have no way to budget expenses or anything else in your life because you would never know what you were going to make.
A lot of times a photog might say "I will have 10 models there on the day of the shoot," but guess what, only 5 were able to make it. Now I'm out of half my money if I were to count on doing makeup by the face. By charging half/full day I know I will get x amount of dollars no matter what happens, and the photog knows he will be paying x amount of dollars so there is no confusion.
Sorry if this is a rambling, I'm just trying to make it make sense to you.
Makeup Artist
Megan Mateo
Posts: 522
San Diego, California, US
KJ Bennett Beauty wrote:
Really?
Most people consider a typical work day 8 hours...which would make a half day 4 hours...right?
As far as the disrespectful tone of this comment towards the "worth" of our time and talent... I woudn't go around questioning what KJ knows or doesn't know. The simple fact is, he's one of THE top artists in the field (read: EMMY AWARD WINNER) and not to be trifled with.
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Marisa Ross
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
xElizabethx wrote:
why pay a full or half day rate for a mua when the mua will only be doing 1 look for a 3 hour shoot? doesn't seem logical does it? I just checked your page and you said on there that you have half and full day rates. By your "logic" the model just has to stand there for 3 hours right?
Think your time and effort is worth half and full days? So do we.
Plus the artist has to stay and do touch ups the entire shoot not to mention change the whole look if the photographer wants to switch things up.
Please don't disrespect and downplay our profession because you simply don't think it seems "logical".
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Marisa Ross
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Megan Mateo wrote:
I woudn't go around questioning what KJ knows or doesn't know. The simple fact is, he's one of THE top artists in the field (read: EMMY AWARD WINNER) and not to be trifled with. Seriously. Kevin, Jordan Liberty, Mary, YSB, the Beauty Artist, RayRayRose etc are artists who are known and know what they're doing. Don't tread lightly on their words.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
KJ Bennett Beauty wrote:
Really?
Most people consider a typical work day 8 hours...which would make a half day 4 hours...right?
As far as the disrespectful tone of this comment towards the "worth" of our time and talent... That was not my meaning at all. I am a true believer that the mua is the most important in the process. As a model I've been hired for full days which is yes 8 hours but the mua never stayed the whole time. Once she was done, she would leave.
Makeup Artist
KJB
Posts: 1184
New York, New York, US
Emily Amick wrote:
Because you're there for x amount of hours no matter how many faces you do. Think about it this way:
If you work at McDonalds for an 8 hour shift, but only 3 people come in all day should you be paid only for the 3 people you provided a service for, or should you be paid for the 8 hours you put in sticking around to make sure everything went smoothly? If you had to count on a certain number of people coming in each day you would have no way to budget expenses or anything else in your life because you would never know what you were going to make.
A lot of times a photog might say "I will have 10 models there on the day of the shoot," but guess what, only 5 were able to make it. Now I'm out of half my money if I were to count on doing makeup by the face. By charging half/full day I know I will get x amount of dollars no matter what happens, and the photog knows he will be paying x amount of dollars so there is no confusion.
Sorry if this is a rambling, I'm just trying to make it make sense to you. BRILLIANT analogy...I might steal it for future use 
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
Makeup By Marisa Ross wrote:
I just checked your page and you said on there that you have half and full day rates. By your "logic" the model just has to stand there for 3 hours right?
Think your time and effort is worth half and full days? So do we.
Plus the artist has to stay and do touch ups the entire shoot not to mention change the whole look if the photographer wants to switch things up.
Please don't disrespect and downplay our profession because you simply don't think it seems "logical". That was not my intent. Let me repeat again that I believe the MUA is the most important shot. But even when I shot for magazines the mua was never there for more than 2 hours.
Makeup Artist
E D A
Posts: 100
New York, New York, US
KJ Bennett Beauty wrote:
BRILLIANT analogy...I might steal it for future use Coming from you, I'm more than flattered
Makeup Artist
Megan Mateo
Posts: 522
San Diego, California, US
xElizabethx wrote:
That was not my meaning at all. I am a true believer that the mua is the most important in the process. As a model I've been hired for full days which is yes 8 hours but the mua never stayed the whole time. Once she was done, she would leave. Any MUA worth his/her salt would stay to the bitter end to make sure the makeup stayed flawless. I do, and always will. That's my work out there, and I'm not about to have it smudged, shiny or otherwise degraded over time.
Makeup Artist
KJB
Posts: 1184
New York, New York, US
xElizabethx wrote:
As a model I've been hired for full days which is yes 8 hours but the mua never stayed the whole time. Once she was done, she would leave. You weren't working with a professional mua. We don't leave until the shoot wraps.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
Emily Amick wrote:
Because you're there for x amount of hours no matter how many faces you do. Think about it this way:
If you work at McDonalds for an 8 hour shift, but only 3 people come in all day should you be paid only for the 3 people you provided a service for, or should you be paid for the 8 hours you put in sticking around to make sure everything went smoothly? If you had to count on a certain number of people coming in each day you would have no way to budget expenses or anything else in your life because you would never know what you were going to make.
A lot of times a photog might say "I will have 10 models there on the day of the shoot," but guess what, only 5 were able to make it. Now I'm out of half my money if I were to count on doing makeup by the face. By charging half/full day I know I will get x amount of dollars no matter what happens, and the photog knows he will be paying x amount of dollars so there is no confusion.
Sorry if this is a rambling, I'm just trying to make it make sense to you. It's not that it doesn't make sense, but out of the 15 years I have been doing this, the mua never stayed the entire shoot.
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Marisa Ross
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Megan Mateo wrote:
Any MUA worth his/her salt would stay to the bitter end to make sure the makeup stayed flawless. I do, and always will. That's my work out there, and I'm not about to have it smudged, shiny or otherwise degraded over time. Definitely. The makeup ALWAYS needs touchups. The model will inadvertantly touch her face, her hair will brush across her lips smearing the makeup (try this on red lips and you'll scream), etc.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
KJ Bennett Beauty wrote:
You weren't working with a professional mua. We don't leave until the shoot wraps. You know I've always stood up for muas because they put in the most effort and I know how much makeup is, but I don't like egos, or assumption.s
Photographer
Dallas J. Logan
Posts: 2185
Los Angeles, California, US
xElizabethx wrote:
That was not my meaning at all. I am a true believer that the mua is the most important in the process. As a model I've been hired for full days which is yes 8 hours but the mua never stayed the whole time. Once she was done, she would leave. I tried not to fall into the rabbit hole... You've worked with MUA's that painted the face then left? If that were to happen at my shoot, that would be the last time the MUA and I worked together (unless, of course, emergency, or pre-arranged agreement)... Who touches up makeup and make sure everything is okay?
I've never paid a kit fee on a photoshoot ever and I worked with newbies as well as well established artists. When they are hired professionally through me on paid gigs it is based on a half day rate regardless if they are painting one face, one look, one model, etc.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
Makeup By Marisa Ross wrote:
Definitely. The makeup ALWAYS needs touchups. The model will inadvertantly touch her face, her hair will brush across her lips smearing the makeup (try this on red lips and you'll scream), etc. I agree, I kept getting my red lipstick on my arms yesterday at my workshop.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
have a good day all you professionals
Makeup Artist
Makeup by Marisa Ross
Posts: 386
Atlanta, Georgia, US
xElizabethx wrote:
I agree, I kept getting my red lipstick on my arms yesterday at my workshop. Ok then your statement about why a MUA needs to stay on set has been completely voided.
Is anyone else confused here????
Photographer
RINALDI
Posts: 2870
Eindhoven, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Makeup By Marisa Ross wrote:
Ok then your statement about why a MUA needs to stay on set has been completely voided.
Is anyone else confused here???? Maybe she meant it as sarcasm
Makeup Artist
Megan Mateo
Posts: 522
San Diego, California, US
Makeup By Marisa Ross wrote:
Ok then your statement about why a MUA needs to stay on set has been completely voided.
Is anyone else confused here???? I believe that was her little shot at sarcasm, poorly executed as it may have been.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
I did, and I apologize to anyone I have offended. I was really just curious, and I'm in a bad mood.
Photographer
RINALDI
Posts: 2870
Eindhoven, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Ok NOW we can be confused  Are you apologizing for your sarcasm, the poor execution of the sarcasm, or for your replies in general?
Makeup Artist
KJB
Posts: 1184
New York, New York, US
Makeup By Marisa Ross wrote:
Ok then your statement about why a MUA needs to stay on set has been completely voided.
Is anyone else confused here???? No confusion...
Fortunately my 'ego' allows me to admit when I'm incorrect. I guess that's another benefit of being a 'professional'. (wink, nudge)
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 9421
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
. . . and what about a 'Kit Fee' for photographers that have major expenses to produce a shoot and provide their equipment ????
. . . and what about a 'Kit Fee' for models that have ongoing expenses with keeping in shape, wardrobe, hair and skin products ????
seems to me that a MUA's 'Kit Fee' is just an excuse to not fully participate in a TF situation and therefore, if a fee is charged the MUA should not be able to share in the images.
Just my thoughts . . . .
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
Iam Rinaldi wrote:
Ok NOW we can be confused Are you apologizing for your sarcasm, the poor execution of the sarcasm, or for your replies in general? all. I really am a nice person. but I always take my anger out on someone else. My boyfriend just left me.
Model
Elizabeth Marxs
Posts: 1733
Denver, Colorado, US
KJ Bennett Beauty wrote:
No confusion...
Fortunately my 'ego' allows me to admit when I'm incorrect. I guess that's another benefit of being a 'professional'. (wink, nudge) I am doing just that. Apologizing, and admitting I was wrong. (wink, nudge, smile)
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Are you apologizing for your sarcasm, the poor execution of the sarcasm, or for your replies in general? 
