Silly Rabbit wrote:
He sounds a bit nutty. Britney Spears? It sounds like that model might not be real. Could even be him.

Hah, I put Britney Spears in so I didn't out anybody.  But I was worried she might not be real too.  Thanks everyone, I feel a bit better about the way I reacted to him.

Fashion Photographer wrote:
tldr. Executive summary?

Model asks photographer for references. He supplies only 1, which the model considers suspect (because the referenced model's port was only recently updated?). Model asks for more references. Photographer explains he doesn't want anyone finding out who he has shot (nudes are bad for his reputation), but is nonetheless is willing to cooperate and is waiting for permission from the models he has worked with (perhaps nudes are also bad for their reputation?) to share their details. Given tight deadline and fear of hotel rooms (sigh), our model is unwilling to confirm quickly enough, so photographer calls the shoot off (rudely).

Model asks if she could have done better wrt communication, but without a complete unedited (except for names) transcript of all communication (electronic and on the phone), I don't see how we can help.

Sky Donohue wrote:
I'm going to start off by saying I've got Asperger's syndrome (if you don't know what that is, it vaguely means I have a lot of trouble communicating) so if you have any suggestions on what I should have done differently or anything like that, please explain.

Sky, your communications with me have always been excellent.

You did a great job of handling the situation and I feel that you made the right decision.

Your post, although lengthy, filled in most of the questions you would have eventually been asked. Good job!

I like the fact that when I work with you, I not only will be working with a top notch Model, but with one with a good head on her shoulders!

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
I thought you communicated with him very well.

Always follow your gut instinct.

Great advice.

Only thing I can add is, "don't double guess or doubt yourself once you have followed your gut."

It would have been so easy for the photographer to be upfront with what you were asking and to be courteous and respectful of your need to ask...the fact that he admitted to being dishonest so his commercial interests wouldnt be ...not understanding of porn..means that he may also be dishonest with you.

I think you did the right thing and needn't doubt yourself at all. Perhaps your aspergers makes you doubt yourself because of times were it may have flared up, (for lack of better wording) but, in this case I think you were VERY appropriate and very likely restrained yourself in a difficult and trying exchange with someone who'd have pushed my non-asperger buttons!

Nicely done,
Jen

Sky Donohue wrote:

Then he called me and said that he was very busy and could only use one model for this project (I don't know why he said that, it seemed random to me).  He asked if I knew I would for sure make it to our shoot, but I wasn't sure yet because I hadn't received any references and I didn't want to shoot in his hotel with less than a day's notice without references so I said something about how it was very late notice so I couldn't confirm yet, but I was working on fixing my schedule so I could fit it in.  He said something I forgot and then "You're not good enough, goodbye," and hung up.

I think your answer lies in his comment that I have put in bold above. That tells me that either he is up to something no good (most likely), or at least would not be very good to work with. If you aren't good enough for his project, then why does he keep trying to get you to shoot? "Britney Spears" is either in on it (whatever it is) with him, or a fake profile that he operates.

I think you handled the situation well.

Rays Fine Art wrote:
I think your approach was reasonable and proper.  It's kind of a long story, but if I'm reading it right, the photographer had only one available reference, which basically he provided rather than you having access to randomly from among a number of models who'd worked with him.  Moreover that model appeared to change her portfolio to match the needs of this one reference check.

Personally, I would question any reference provided by the person I'm checking up on.  There's simply too much temptation for collusion in that case.  Fail number one.

Then too there is the question of the photographer's insistence on on "protecting" his models and clients because he "shoots nudes".  In my experience and observation there are two primary legitimate reasons for shooting nudes: to be paid, in which case hiding the fact that he shoots them is self defeating, or for the ego trip of shooting them well, in which case the photographer is likely to go overboard bragging about his nude work, not the other way around.  This sounds more like a guy trying to set up a sexual opportunity.  Fail number two.

And lastly, he claims to have a large enough operation to have a "production manager" and many corporate clients.  This would indicate a decent sized studio.  Why is he looking to do a "vintage fashion shoot", which would require wardrobe and a fair measure of light control, in a hotel room with a model with no evident fashion experience.  If he were either an established pro or a proud amateur he would be trying for the best picture he could get in the best possible circumstances, not searching out conditions that would make it more difficult than necessary to achieve the goal.  Fail number three. 

Three strikes and he's out.  And you've probably dodged a bullet.  Congratulations on your good sense!

==========

Ray pretty much said it all, along with the above reply directed at the "you're not good enough" comment of his!

You acted completely ok and with due diligence. NO model should ever take a job without know ALL of the facts & references.

If you work with me, I always supply complete details and have a list of MM references you can msg to asking about me!

Fifi wrote:
Personally, I think you handled the situation very well. He couldn't provide you with any references, and seemed to dodge a lot of your questions, so it makes sense that it would come up as a red flag. I don't think you did anything wrong, I wouldn't worry about it.

+1

Not your fault if he can't/won't tell you who he's worked with. And why would he contact you for a "fashion" shoot anyway when you're 4'11" and appear to be primarily an art model?

Most likely an awkward situation (at best) avoided.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Fifi wrote:
Personally, I think you handled the situation very well. He couldn't provide you with any references, and seemed to dodge a lot of your questions, so it makes sense that it would come up as a red flag. I don't think you did anything wrong, I wouldn't worry about it.

Fifi is WINNING!  Sorry... haven't use that one in awhile.

OP, it sounds like you avoided a lot of headaches.

Mini_ wrote:
Any minute now, someone is going to walk in here and say you handled it awfully, just for the sake of disagreeing. Personal opinions do not really matter all that much; if you are uncomfortable working with someone than you shouldn't.

Meh... even the trolls know shady when they read it.

Sendu wrote:
Model asks if she could have done better wrt communication, but without a complete unedited (except for names) transcript of all communication (electronic and on the phone), I don't see how we can help.

The communication actually was unedited.  I copy/pasted what we said and the only editing I did was adding punctuation and capitalization on his part (so it'd be easier for people to read) and changing names.  A few times I put his correspondence in quotations instead of correcting it because I didn't understand what he meant and was hoping for help.  I did forget the phone conversation though, and that was my fault.  All I could think of was the "not good enough" thing because it stuck with me for some reason.  I just know he asked about my schedule and I tried to tell him I was sorting it out.

By the way, thanks for shortening it for me.  Sorry it was so long. 

Fotographahaulic wrote:
What's their side of the story . . .

Then we can decide . . .

I wish I knew their side of the story.  I tried to leave all of the correspondence in the original words like how I explained above so that it would show as much of the whole story as I could find.  I thought that either he wasn't a legitimate photographer, or he was so used to working with corporations that he didn't understand that models like to have people see their portfolios.  I couldn't tell which.  I kind of hope it was the first because if it was the second then I probably shouldn't have acted the way that I did, being so pushy about the references.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hypothetical question for all the reference seekers.   What about those new photographers with few to no references.   How would a person get references if no one will work with them because they have none.   When, I started on MM I had zero references yet models came to work with me.   Many here would have told them not too and that's a shame.   I'm not suggesting that people not be cautious but there are other ways to vet people.   I know several agency shooters who would have no models from this site.   How would a model decide they were trustworthy?   They would not provide past models contact information and many times agencies may not always recognize names.

At some point caution in my view becomes paranoia.   Talk to the person, review their work, get their personal information.   If no credited models then perhaps a work contact.   Odds are this man is only interested in photos.   Odds are he's not some lunatic or trying lure the OP into a hotel room to assault her.   Maybe in this case asking to have a friend come and meet him and return later would be ideal.      Again what saddens me is so many members seem to have a negative view of other photographers.   Bad enough models do but we do.   Its always he's a creep or up to no good.   A few days ago, I did a nude shoot with a model who only reviewed my work here and read a few of my tags.   

Based on most of what, I see on these sites new photographers with no references aren't too be trusted and not worked with.   Forgetting that we all new once.   In this case a photographer may not have wanted to give out contact information for past models.   I won't make any assumptions about why and neither should any of us.

Tony, it seems like you have a pet peeve on this subject of references, and are trying to use what she encountered as an example to further the opinions you had prior to reading her post.

I don't think anyone here has said there is a problem with photographers that have no references, nor few references.

The issue as I read it was that one of the references seemed suspicious and that the photographer was surprisingly hesitant at providing any other/alternate references.  I don't think any of us have an issue with a photographer who wants to contact a model for authorization to give out their info, but when a photographer seems to be trying to put together a rushed shoot and minimize a model's ability to check references, that should raise an eyebrow.

What this does is it gives further credibility to those other multiple threads complaining about photographers who do not credit models, as that permits reference checking without asking for info.

As for someone starting out with no, or few references, it isn't rocket science, shoot so that you have a base of people who can be contacted. It isn't difficult especially if a photographer is honest about the situation.

In the end, the quote from the photographer pretty much says it all.  - "You're not good enough, goodbye" *click*

That does not sound like some nice, innocent photographer, who is legitimately just starting out and lacking references.

Someone with a "Production Manager" should be able to easily provide timely references rather than insults.

Tyler C Johnson wrote:
IMO likely he didn't want to bother with all the bother. In a way, neither of you met the others requirements for a shoot that was so last minute.

Pretty much

Fifi wrote:
Personally, I think you handled the situation very well. He couldn't provide you with any references, and seemed to dodge a lot of your questions, so it makes sense that it would come up as a red flag. I don't think you did anything wrong, I wouldn't worry about it.

This.

There are two yellow/amber flags for me.

1. Short notice, but not enough time to check references. This can be seen as "Fear of Loss", like a salesman putting a time limit on the offer. Short notice shoots where there's no client and no mua often can SOMETIMES be a case of the photographer hasn't got any work on and wants to play.

2. ""i have a personal responsibility to protect those who i work with clients and models included. I give you that same promise. "

Ye but he also has a responsibility to provide references or be verifiable, if the shoot booking is not far enough in advance, he's not meeting that responsibility.

Who does he think he is? the CIA? I've pre-arranged with 2 or 3 models that they might get e-mails from models wanting to chat with them. This way, if I do ever have a really short notice shoot on, I don't have to worry.

Doesn't surprise me either that the shoot was in a hotel room.

He could be perfectly innocent, but either way sounds like a jerk.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hypothetical question for all the reference seekers.   What about those new photographers with few to no references.   How would a person get references if no one will work with them because they have none.   When, I started on MM I had zero references yet models came to work with me.   Many here would have told them not too and that's a shame.   I'm not suggesting that people not be cautious but there are other ways to vet people.   I know several agency shooters who would have no models from this site.   How would a model decide they were trustworthy?   They would not provide past models contact information and many times agencies may not always recognize names.

At some point caution in my view becomes paranoia.   Talk to the person, review their work, get their personal information.   If no credited models then perhaps a work contact.   Odds are this man is only interested in photos.   Odds are he's not some lunatic or trying lure the OP into a hotel room to assault her.   Maybe in this case asking to have a friend come and meet him and return later would be ideal.      Again what saddens me is so many members seem to have a negative view of other photographers.   Bad enough models do but we do.   Its always he's a creep or up to no good.   A few days ago, I did a nude shoot with a model who only reviewed my work here and read a few of my tags.   

Based on most of what, I see on these sites new photographers with no references aren't too be trusted and not worked with.   Forgetting that we all new once.   In this case a photographer may not have wanted to give out contact information for past models.   I won't make any assumptions about why and neither should any of us.

I think when the model gets an offer that sounds odd or too good to be true, then that's a good time to get some references. If someone wants you to shoot fashion in a hotel room, and you're not really a fashion model, then yeah, maybe you want to check up on that person.

I have yet to have a model actually ask me for references, but I have credits on my profile. I know that models talk a lot, and I'm sure some of them have checked with people I've worked with without me ever hearing about that.

You're correct that things are harder for new people. That's the case on multiple levels, but that's reality. No one handed anything to me when I started out and I'm guessing it was the same with you. You put the work in, you network, and as time goes on you get a portfolio and references together.

I don't think most of the models I know check references on every single person they work with. But if someone has a weird feeling, I think it's a smart thing to do. Reading that OP there seem to be red flags all over the place. Maybe there was nothing to it, but it really sounded super sketchy. He lists his location as "somewhere over the rainbow?" Really? lol

DougBPhoto wrote:

Tony, it seems like you have a pet peeve on this subject of references, and are trying to use what she encountered as an example to further the opinions you had prior to reading her post.

I don't think anyone here has said there is a problem with photographers that have no references, nor few references.

The issue as I read it was that one of the references seemed suspicious and that the photographer was surprisingly hesitant at providing any other/alternate references.  I don't think any of us have an issue with a photographer who wants to contact a model for authorization to give out their info, but when a photographer seems to be trying to put together a rushed shoot and minimize a model's ability to check references, that should raise an eyebrow.

What this does is it gives further credibility to those other multiple threads complaining about photographers who do not credit models, as that permits reference checking without asking for info.

As for someone starting out with no, or few references, it isn't rocket science, shoot so that you have a base of people who can be contacted. It isn't difficult especially if a photographer is honest about the situation.

In the end, the quote from the photographer pretty much says it all.  - "You're not good enough, goodbye" *click*

That does not sound like some nice, innocent photographer, who is legitimately just starting out and lacking references.

Someone with a "Production Manager" should be able to easily provide timely references rather than insults.

Hi, Doug.   In this case someone with the kind of background this person claimed should have been able to provide more information.   That doesn't make him bad but it is suspicious.   As you may know I don't provide references.   Models who don't want to work with me because of that shouldn't but I do understand the OP.   My point was about this need for references from shooters who seem to forget that they were new once and had few to none.   Now that they have some references urge models not to shoot with some goof with none.   That's crap in my view.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Hi, Doug.   In this case someone with the kind of background this person claimed should have been able to provide more information.   That doesn't make him bad but it is suspicious.   As you may know I don't provide references.   Models who don't want to work with me because of that shouldn't but I do understand the OP.   My point was about this need for references from shooters who seem to forget that they were new once and had few to none.   Now that they have some references urge models not to shoot with some goof with none.   That's crap in my view.

There seems to be no shortage of people who wish to have their cake and eat it too (such a weird saying).

You're right though, I don't like hypocrisy either.

If nothing else, it is good to hear that she was trying to do some checking rather than blindly rushing in, and that is hard to find fault with.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Forgetting that we all new once.   In this case a photographer may not have wanted to give out contact information for past models.   I won't make any assumptions about why and neither should any of us.

This guy sounds pretty iffy.
If he was new why didn't he just say so instead of saying "I work with MM models very often in fact shot on Sunday night..." You can see in my tags on my profile from a model named..."