Michael Pandolfo wrote:

You seem to be justifying why it's appropriate for a photographer to ask for a model to text him nude images. The problem is you're trying to apply logical and rational thought when it's not there.

It's not the photographer wanting to see a recent image of the model...and it's not even whether it's bikini or nude. The problem is requesting it to a cell phone. It's the communication method that is the tell-tale sign here.

Do you text nude images of yourself? To any prospective client?

If he really cared about confirming her current look he could very easily ask that she post a recent photo to her MM profile or she could suggest that. Wouldn't that be the logical resolution that wouldn't be viewed as creepy?

Asking someone to send you a nude image to your cell phone has nothing to do with photography...it has to do with this fantasy of having a pretty girl send HIM something that nobody else is seeing.

Have you heard the term "Girlfriend Experience"? The guys who get off on this don't just want to have sex with the prostitute (just as in this case he doesn't just want to see nude images in her portfolio), they want to create the fantasy that the woman is their girlfriend, doing things in the bedroom that only a girlfriend would do...just for THEM.

That's what's going on here. He's asking for them sent to his cell phone because it feeds that personal fantasy that the model and he are close/in a relationship.

And we're talking about a guy that has a history of photographing nude models on his front porch so his neighbors can see. Why do you think he does that? Fantasy. You don't think he would be running around to those same neighbors showing the nude images on his cell phone of his latest "girlfriend?" I'm sure this guy is quite the hit at the Neighborhood Block Parties.

Please don't compare nude models with hookers.  Not the same thing.

She said he asked for a picture FROM her iphone. I also earlier suggested she put an unretouched picture in her portfolio, as I do. I also suggested that she send a bikini picture instead.

MoRina wrote:
Please don't compare nude models with hookers.  Not the same thing.

She said he asked for a picture FROM her iphone. I also earlier suggested she put an unretouched picture in her portfolio, as I do. I also suggested that she send a bikini picture instead.

Are you for real? I wasn't comparing models to hookers. I was comparing the thought process in the CLIENTS mind. That isn't comparing anyone. It's explaining to you how people think and why that is such a fantasy for some men.

If all you saw was a comparison between hookers and models then you missed the entire point. Not surprising since you clearly don't get the intent of this photographer.

MDWM wrote:
Third, case closed, no id...why would the photographer request nudes via text after his request for DL was declined.

The photographer doesn't think she is underage, he only needs the ID for material he is going to produce.

therefore he doesn't need or care about images she sends him or viewing the ones all over her profile




again, wow

MoRina wrote:
There are copies of my drivers license all over the country.  If you want to get paid for nudes, you'll have to accept that most people copy or photograph your license.

As far as a nude cell phone picture, it is not that unusual for a photographer to ask for a current, unretouched photograph.  They want to see if you have extensive stretchmarks, cellulite, scarring, bad acne, etc. that they will have to retouch (or are incapable of retouching and may want to pass on shooting with you).  You have a portfolio full of nudes - what is the big deal with sending an unretouched picture?  If you shoot with him, he'll have hundreds of them.

I post an unretouched picture on my profile page, so I never get asked to send one.

Right answer!

And if you're worried about someone finding out that you're thirty, you may not have a thick enough skin to be an internet llama.

MoRina wrote:
There are copies of my drivers license all over the country.  If you want to get paid for nudes, you'll have to accept that most people copy or photograph your license.

As far as a nude cell phone picture, it is not that unusual for a photographer to ask for a current, unretouched photograph.  They want to see if you have extensive stretchmarks, cellulite, scarring, bad acne, etc. that they will have to retouch (or are incapable of retouching and may want to pass on shooting with you).  You have a portfolio full of nudes - what is the big deal with sending an unretouched picture?  If you shoot with him, he'll have hundreds of them.

I post an unretouched picture on my profile page, so I never get asked to send one.

+1........valuable information from an experienced model!

AJScalzitti wrote:

Are you paying them over $600? Are they there own corp, or working via an agency?

There are very specific reasons to 1099 and requirments, you are also expected to protect any PII as an employer.  I would prefer to avoid all of that if possible, granted I also don't shoot anything that falls under 2257

it's really pretty simple ...

i work with "freelance" models. i have yet run into one that has a business entity established.

i deduct fees i pay models as a business expense on my company return

the expense needs to be documented. the easiest way to document is sending a 1099.

i'd rather spend $3 to send a piece of paper to a model i paid $200 to than have to explain why i didnt to the irs ...

if a model wants to get upset over me asking for something which they'd be required to provide for even the shittiest office  or restaurant job then i have no problem moving on.

in fact, that i ask for information is typically seen as a positive.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
lol, lots of bad advice in this thread



its like all the objective lights turn off when the photographer is booking spank bank material, this doesn't change anything though, and who cares? its a paid nude shoot, was there supposed to be some other theme to the shoot we don't know about

he asked for ID

would it be better if he asked for nude photos "by email", which is unnecessary since her entire profile has nude images of her, but not exactly uncommon

wow, a lot of conclusions in this thread are so interesting

one big rorshach test

Sweet_Nikki  wrote:

Not all of My nudes are touched up..
And as far as IF I want to do nudes, I have been doing nudes for 4 years and NOONE has ever asked me either of these things..

I don't know who you are working with but.....you wouldn't work here without me getting an image of your DL, passport, or State ID card or would you be working with a couple zillion other photographers I'm acquainted with.

Actually....the ones that wouldn't ask for that, would likely be folks I would think twice about.

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:

The photographer doesn't think she is underage, he only needs the ID for material he is going to produce.

therefore he doesn't need or care about images she sends him or viewing the ones all over her profile

again, wow

WOW, please read all my post in this thread.

If I, as a photographer, request ID from a model and she declines...CASE CLOSED and all communication comes to a halt. But, this photographer continued by asking for nude pictures even though she declined to send him her id. 

What part don't you understand?

ClimaxArt wrote:
in over 10 years i've never had a model balk at providing a copy of id and her ssn - for the most part it's expected i'll ask.

i usually ask for an unretouched photo - especially when the models age on her profile doesnt seem to match the images, the images are old or the ps is obvious. that said, i dont ask for a nude photo - but i can see why some wold. again never a problem.

if i were booking you i would ask for an unretouched image and not book if you werent willing to send one.

There is really no reason you would need a models SSN and that is definitely NOT common.

Jessie Shannon wrote:
There is really no reason you would need a models SSN and that is definitely NOT common.

Not even if you're paying her more than $600 within a calendar year ?

I can think of at least one really good reason, assuming payment of $600 or more during a single tax year.

Personally, I don't care what is common, I only care about what keeps me in compliance with any applicable laws.

Jessie Shannon wrote:

There is really no reason you would need a models SSN and that is definitely NOT common.

i guess it depends on who you commonly work with

DougBPhoto wrote:
Not even if you're paying her more than $600 within a calendar year ?

I can think of at least one really good reason, assuming payment of $600 or more during a single tax year.

Personally, I don't care what is common, I only care about what keeps me in compliance with any applicable laws.

For commercial usage I have had to provide my ssn to corporations.  As a photographer hiring a nude model?  Why would you need to?   Even for over $600.  If you hire a plumber and it costs more than $600 would you ask for his ssn?  You're paying for a service, not becoming an employer.

Sweet_Nikki  wrote:
Are you kidding me?

I booked a paid shoot with a photographer in a few weeks, out of town.
I have even done references. One girl said he will ask you to do nudes on his porch while his neighbors walk by. Supposedly another model told him this was ok. So I could get over that I guess.
But then he asked me he will need a copy of my drivers license. I've had photographers ask to see it before, but I'm pushing 30.. I didn't see the point of having a copy, so I declined.
Today, he asked me to send him a nude photo of myself by using my cell phone.
ALL of my photos have been taken in the last month or two. (on this port, I have 2)
I can understand some would like to know they are going to be shooting with who they see in the photos. But to ask me to send a nude photo I take with my phone..

I'm thinking the 3hour drive isn't worth the images or the money for that matter..

Suggestions?
Am I being silly?

Your portfolio would be good enough for me to book you.
No need to see examples.

IF, though, you had no nudes in your portfolio, I would ask for examples and how you send them is not important.. sending nude pics via cell phone sounds a bit crazy. email or link to another gallery works just fine.

Jessie Shannon wrote:
For commercial usage I have had to provide my ssn to corporations.  As a photographer hiring a nude model?  Why would you need to?   Even for over $600.  If you hire a plumber and it costs more than $600 would you ask for his ssn?  You're paying for a service, not becoming an employer.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1099msc.pdf

Wages paid to an employee would be a W-2

A GWC hiring you for his spank-bank would not need to issue a 1099-misc as it would be a personal payment, but if anyone wishes to claim the money paid as a business expense...

Would I ask for the plumber's SSN - depends on if it is a business expense or personal expense for me, and it would depend on if I am hiring a company or an independent contractor, and of course if the plumber has obtained a separate TIN... something that if a model routinely does work that would lead to 1099's, getting a separate TIN instead of SSN might be worth exploring?

Cherrystone wrote:

I don't know who you are working with but.....you wouldn't work here without me getting an image of your DL, passport, or State ID card or would you be working with a couple zillion other photographers I'm acquainted with.

Actually....the ones that wouldn't ask for that, would likely be folks I would think twice about.

Yes to this!

Sweet_Nikki  wrote:
Are you kidding me?

Suggestions?
Am I being silly?

If concerned, don't do it. It is not unreasonable for a photographer to want to verify age in some cases. Usually would not apply for me as I look over 21 but sometimes a just crd everybody rule is a way to handle.

Jessie Shannon wrote:
For commercial usage I have had to provide my ssn to corporations.  As a photographer hiring a nude model?  Why would you need to?   Even for over $600.  If you hire a plumber and it costs more than $600 would you ask for his ssn?  You're paying for a service, not becoming an employer.

A couple of things are taken in to account when this question is asked.

The plumber is likely under a contracted business and likely we wouldn't need the plumber's SSN.. And we wouldn't need the Model's SSN if we weren't going to fill out a 1099.

It's all about the government and are they "getting their piece?".

As a photography business, I'm going to write you (the model) as a business expense. And IF I write off $600+... they are going to want to know who got that $600+

All in all, it's about who wants to be completely compliant with the IRS laws.

COULD a photographer just pay a model under the table and not worry about paperwork? sure, and many probably do.... It's just what is honest and what is not.

DougBPhoto wrote:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1099msc.pdf

Wages paid to an employee would be a W-2

A GWC hiring you for his spank-bank would not need to issue a 1099-misc as it would be a personal payment, but if anyone wishes to claim the money paid as a business expense...

Would I ask for the plumber's SSN - depends on if it is a business expense or personal expense for me, and it would depend on if I am hiring a company or an independent contractor.

I think you explained it better.

Sweet_Nikki  wrote:
Are you kidding me?

I booked a paid shoot with a photographer in a few weeks, out of town.
I have even done references. One girl said he will ask you to do nudes on his porch while his neighbors walk by. Supposedly another model told him this was ok. So I could get over that I guess.
But then he asked me he will need a copy of my drivers license. I've had photographers ask to see it before, but I'm pushing 30.. I didn't see the point of having a copy, so I declined.
Today, he asked me to send him a nude photo of myself by using my cell phone.
ALL of my photos have been taken in the last month or two. (on this port, I have 2)
I can understand some would like to know they are going to be shooting with who they see in the photos. But to ask me to send a nude photo I take with my phone..

I'm thinking the 3hour drive isn't worth the images or the money for that matter..

Suggestions?
Am I being silly?

Sounds like a perv, like most on this site, wondering why I even joined

Jessie Shannon wrote:

For commercial usage I have had to provide my ssn to corporations.  As a photographer hiring a nude model?  Why would you need to?   Even for over $600.  If you hire a plumber and it costs more than $600 would you ask for his ssn?  You're paying for a service, not becoming an employer.

that you think of nude modeling as a "service" as opposed to work for a business is at the heart of every thread about escorts and flakes ... this nonsense about not wanting provide valid id or a ssn is just another manifestation of rampant lack of professionalism on both sides of the transaction.

ClimaxArt wrote:
that you think of nude modeling as a "service" as opposed to work for a business is at the heart of every thread about escorts and flakes ... this nonsense about not wanting provide valid id or a ssn is just another manifestation of rampant lack of professionalism on both sides of the transaction.

At the end of every year when I file taxes, I am instructed to file under Services: Modeling. 

Rampant lack of professionalism eh?  I am fairly certain that a good 99% of transactions that happen from MM would not require 1099 forms or ssn's.  As far as the requirements of 1099's thank you Doug.


And Mr. Climax Art a large population here are probably not a business, as many of them will tell you.

I can also assure you that the way I think of things is NOT at the heart of every Flake and Escort thread, in fact quite the opposite.

DougBPhoto wrote:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1099msc.pdf

Wages paid to an employee would be a W-2

A GWC hiring you for his spank-bank would not need to issue a 1099-misc as it would be a personal payment, but if anyone wishes to claim the money paid as a business expense...

Would I ask for the plumber's SSN - depends on if it is a business expense or personal expense for me, and it would depend on if I am hiring a company or an independent contractor, and of course if the plumber has obtained a separate TIN... something that if a model routinely does work that would lead to 1099's, getting a separate TIN instead of SSN might be worth exploring?

Thanks for the info, and yeah a TIN may be a good idea

Jessie Shannon wrote:
At the end of every year when I file taxes, I am instructed to file under Services: llamaing. 

Rampant lack of professionalism eh?  I am fairly certain that a good 99% of transactions that happen from MM would not require 1099 forms or ssn's.  As far as the requirements of 1099's thank you Doug.

Given the volume of trade shoots that happen via MM, and that a majority of shoots probably result in less than $600 in total payment, and then also factor in that there are also many photographers who are probably not even filing/claiming/reporting, and also llamas getting work through agencies or other scenarios, given the entirety of transactions the percentage would likely be low.

However, IIRC, your post was that you could think of NO good reason why a photographer would require an SSN, and I hope it is helpful to everyone to have pointed out one very good reason why it could be totally reasonable and appropriate.

My concern is that many people on here frequently speak in generalizations saying things like there is no good reason for something, when in fact, there may be good, legitimate reasons....

....of course, that is NOT to say that there are also not cases where there is NO legitimate reason but people try for stuff they are not entitled to or their circumstances do not require.

Ultimately, things like "omg, I'm being asked for my driver's license" many times has a legitimate reason, so if a llama is concerned by something they are being asked for, it is a good idea to do some research rather than jump to conclusions, and educate themselves on a large variety of things, whether proof of identity/age, llama releases, tax compliance, whatever, as just because something isn't commonly known or commonly done does not mean that it is wrong or unreasonable.

Specifically, Jessie, you're not someone I'd be concerned about getting something right, but there are many others out there who may take things as gospel rather than learn that circumstances/details matter, and that things are not always "yes" or "no" but sometimes the answer is "maybe" or "infrequently, yes, it may be appropriate".

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
lol, lots of bad advice in this thread



its like all the objective lights turn off when the photographer is booking spank bank material, this doesn't change anything though, and who cares? its a paid nude shoot, was there supposed to be some other theme to the shoot we don't know about

he asked for ID

would it be better if he asked for nude photos "by email", which is unnecessary since her entire profile has nude images of her, but not exactly uncommon

wow, a lot of conclusions in this thread are so interesting

Agreed. I guess most people don't realize that agencies ask for unretouched polaroid images by email and/or cell phone image. They do this to make sure the image is current and a complete representation of what the model actually looks like. Some agencies even take a file photo during the casting.
As for verifying ID. I photograph every models ID when shooting implied, nude or even lingerie. It's not uncommon at all, it's actually an industry standard.

Sweet_Nikki  wrote:
Are you kidding me?

I booked a paid shoot with a photographer in a few weeks, out of town.
I have even done references. One girl said he will ask you to do nudes on his porch while his neighbors walk by. Supposedly another llama told him this was ok. So I could get over that I guess.
But then he asked me he will need a copy of my drivers license. I've had photographers ask to see it before, but I'm pushing 30.. I didn't see the point of having a copy, so I declined.
Today, he asked me to send him a nude photo of myself by using my cell phone.
ALL of my photos have been taken in the last month or two. (on this port, I have 2)
I can understand some would like to know they are going to be shooting with who they see in the photos. But to ask me to send a nude photo I take with my phone..

I'm thinking the 3hour drive isn't worth the images or the money for that matter..

Suggestions?
Am I being silly?

The only answer I have is "HELL NO'     You send by cell phone and you will be classed as   very amateur,  or even worse label...

Torin Skye wrote:
I would walk away from a shoot if a model refused me an ID.

Im not refusing an ID....

Jessie Shannon wrote:
At the end of every year when I file taxes, I am instructed to file under Services: Modeling. 

Rampant lack of professionalism eh?  I am fairly certain that a good 99% of transactions that happen from MM would not require 1099 forms or ssn's.  As far as the requirements of 1099's thank you Doug.


And Mr. Climax Art a large population here are probably not a business, as many of them will tell you.

I can also assure you that the way I think of things is NOT at the heart of every Flake and Escort thread, in fact quite the opposite.

i'm not accountant so i dont know whether it's a 1099, w2 or something else that needs to be filed but i'm pretty confident  federal, state and local taxing agencies think every transaction on mm needs to be reported.

... how many high profile people have gotten into trouble for paying the nanny off the books?

if you want take business deductions in the context of any  structure (corp, llc sole prop)  you simply have to show where the money went  - there really isnt any grey area... if you've paid a business for a service the business needs to provide a w9  with an EIN, if it's an individual working as a freelancer it's a 1099 ... is my accountant being overly cautious?  maybe ... but asking for the info for a legit business isnt creepy and the op's rant over the issue is unprofessional. and  ... to round out ... unprofessionalism is at the heart of escort and flake threads.

my reference to "you" was more in the universal sense - i dont know you, you may be completely professional just uninformed on this topic.

Images By Joseph wrote:

MoRina wrote:
There are copies of my drivers license all over the country.  If you want to get paid for nudes, you'll have to accept that most people copy or photograph your license.

As far as a nude cell phone picture, it is not that unusual for a photographer to ask for a current, unretouched photograph.  They want to see if you have extensive stretchmarks, cellulite, scarring, bad acne, etc. that they will have to retouch (or are incapable of retouching and may want to pass on shooting with you).  You have a portfolio full of nudes - what is the big deal with sending an unretouched picture?  If you shoot with him, he'll have hundreds of them.

I post an unretouched picture on my profile page, so I never get asked to send one.

Execellent Answer

+1

MDWM wrote:
I refer models to a friend who shoots for a major men's magazine. If he sees potential, he'll email the models with 2 requests. First, 2 forms of government issued ids. Second, nude photos with current newspaper with the date visible. Cell phone cameras ok . All sent to his company email address. 

btw- the requested photos are more like a police lineup...front, both sides and rear. Topless only is ok.

The purpose of recent photos is to show how you really look. No posing, photoshop or any body changes (e.g., weight gain, scars, stretch marks, etc...)

Why? What happens if airfare, hotel and per diem are approved. Then the model comes in and looks nothing like her photos. Now, add crew fees, location fee and so on. Money loss and the photographer's credibility with magazine.

My advice: Consider the source of the request before proceeding.

MDWM wrote:

If it's a paid commercial shoot, you will have to fill out a W9 where your SS# or EIN is required

Just now saw this thread but thank goodness some people realize there are PROFESSIONAL photographers, models, MUAs, etc. out here who are making & paying money through their businesses and need to file tax returns, 1099, claim expenses and so on.

I too ask for a recent pic/photo by whatever means and the phone seems to be the fastest and easiest way to get this done. I can remember hiring a model for a project, breaking my own rule by not requesting a recent candid and when she showed up I was well...surprised since it looked like she had gained probably 10-15lbs from the most recent images in her portfolio.

Oh...I ALWAYS take a photo of the model HOLDING her form of identification, NO EXCEPTIONS!

Sal W Hanna wrote:

Agreed. I guess most people don't realize that agencies ask for unretouched polaroid images by email and/or cell phone image. They do this to make sure the image is current and a complete representation of what the model actually looks like. Some agencies even take a file photo during the casting.
As for verifying ID. I photograph every models ID when shooting implied, nude or even lingerie. It's not uncommon at all, it's actually an industry standard.

+1

I get the ID always regardless of what "style" of images we are creating; you will NEVER be able to do anything with those images (legally) without it.

LA StarShooter wrote:
The request for ID for nudes is reasonable. As he doesn't have a history of harassment or coming on to models, and you did check him out, he may be reasoning in a way some men do, when negotiating, that's is, moving on from contentious point 1--I.D. --(he can come back to that) and getting to the other issue, what is your current skin tone really like, without being elaborately processed. He may have thought a cell phone pic would help. If he thought he could still really get the shots he needed, he'd cross that off his list of concerns and return to explain contentious point 1, why he needed I.D.

I don't know that for sure, what I just wrote above, just conjecture,  but you did check him out, and while he may get a thrill from neighbors walking past, did any of the models say he was bad to work with? 

Of course, if you're uncomfortable don't do it. I haven't looked at your portfolio yet. I'm curious!

In terms of my processing skills-I ranked myself as really good in Lightroom, but I've got a long way to go in photoshop. So far I can barely crawl in photoshop.

So, if I were paying a model, I would probably just go off her portfolio but if I saw sun damage, I might not go further, and not even ask for a cell phone photo, etc.

I think photographers should treat photography as a business, use a ledger to keep a record of expenditure and, also, understand things such as asset depreciation. I learnt about asset depreciation and vehicle depreciation when I did bookkeeping at high school.

Suppose at the end of this year you land some paid work or sell some images.  If you have a kept a record and receipts when you total up your income, it may look like you made a profit, and let's say you got a wedding and some corporate headshots. So, you're income from photography appears to be 2500 in this example. Now, if you examine carefully, you may still be at a loss, tax-wise, and if you know how to do your own taxes as a business, it helps to know what the IRS defines as a hobby and how you qualify as a business. If you figured that out you may find that you have a loss, of 2,000 dollars, after you do the write-offs, etc.  You can then post that loss, in another year. That's right, you can file it but hold off on putting that loss on your tax filing, as you may anticipate that from everything you will make more money the next year and you want to reduce that.  Of course, they could have changed that rule!

This is why it is good to treat it as a business, in case it becomes one. Having being 1099'ed to death by shrewd business people I discovered that I could deduct $75 per day in meals, as a travelling sales god. Yes, you need to document that, so if audited it, you don't lose that deduction, but I hope this is helpful to you, so you know, both models and photographers how important it really is, to run a photography or model service as a business. Ciao bella!

If you travel to a shoot, well: Vehicle miles. our vehicle is an asset that should be also depreciated, and I know that there are people on this thread who know this, and I apologize for writing what may be obvious to you.

So, if you pay over $600 dollars to a model you should 1099, because you'll want to deduct, if you have income from photography, your vehicle miles and all costs associated with the shoot and, if audited, you need to win. You don't want to lose to the IRS.

Thank You!

MoRina wrote:
There are copies of my drivers license all over the country.  If you want to get paid for nudes, you'll have to accept that most people copy or photograph your license.

I have a huge problem subjecting an albeit younger-looking 48 year-old or anyone else to identity theft in order to appease a stupid zero tolerence law.