Ivan Monge wrote:
What I was trying to imply was that if I didn't have to pay models when I started I don't believe he should either as I don't consider myself any better than him.

But congrats on twisting my words around.

I can see why you wouldn't want to see this kind of reply as you are a nude model and might depend on this as a source of income!

You shoot an entirely different set of genres than he does, in a different area than he is in, and you have no idea what his purposes for shooting are, so just because you never paid a model (regardless of the SHOULD or SHOULDNT HAVE of it), it has no bearing on what he ought to be doing.


Regardless of all of THAT, he didnt ask if he ought to pay a model. Hes obviously already decided hes okay with it, since hes been doing it (or is planning to do it). The actual question is how to approach a model about he and a friend splitting her rates for a shoot.


My response wasnt about my preferences for getting paid vs not, rather that your response had nothing to do with the thread topic.  but thats a nice assumption. (Im retired and living in canada, what does what a Tennessee photographer do with his money mean to me?)

Laura UnBound wrote:

Different genre or not - the end state is the same - he can get models to TF and he shouldn't be paying. Eventually, his body of work will grow and if good enough, models will be paying him.

I'm giving him an alternate mean to his dilemma, which is that he can't afford it. Like many photographers here, from his statement, he think that he needs to pay for shoots. Which is not true!

This is an open forum and if you had a problem with my answer, I think you should of have taken it with a grain of salt an moved on. Instead you decided to address it and basically imply that I was something that I'm not.

I hope that we haven't hijack this thread, but to add to it. If you don't think there's any other way than to pay. No Models shouldn't have a problem. You are the client and they are the providers. Make sure you let them know your terms and what you demand, if they agree to it then hold them accountable for anything outside the agreement.  But once again, find models that need to build their port, this is not a one way street. I suggest if you pay for something, then you don't owe the model anything to include images. Treat it as a business ... If they ask for images, CHARGE THEM!

Thank you!

Ivan Monge wrote:

Different genre or not - the end state is the same - he can get models to TF and he shouldn't be paying.

Why? Because you said so?

Eventually, his body of work will grow and if good enough, models will be paying him.

So a model SHOULD pay him, but he SHOULD NOT pay a model? Again, Why?

I'm giving him an alternate mean to his dilemma, which is that he can't afford it. Like many photographers here, from his statement, he think that he needs to pay for shoots. Which is not true!

It is if hes already tried to find models to shoot for TF and came up emptyhanded, as is often the case with newbies. The OP in particular is not exactly in a hotbed of models, hes shooting nude work, and thus far seems to have only shot one person who is not credited in his portfolio so a model being asked to TF with him cannot even check references and ask that model if shooting with the OP was worth it, if he delivered all the things he said he would in the time frame he promised, if he was easy to work with, all those little things that a model wanting to invest her time in a TF situation might want to know so she can gauge if the offer is worthwhile to her or not. Perhaps he jumped right into deciding to pay a model, or perhaps hes already exhausted the TF option and is trying different avenues.

The OPs intentions of the photos is also very important when determining if a model ought to TF with him or not. If hes selling the images for X purposes why SHOULD she TF with him? Why SHOULDNT she? And what SHOULD he do?

Ivan Monge wrote:
Different genre or not - the end state is the same - he can get models to TF and he shouldn't be paying. Eventually, his body of work will grow and if good enough, models will be paying him.

I am going to have to disagree with you this - the genre does matter.  Beauty and fashion you do not have to be that good at the beginning to get models to do trade work with you.  Glam is a bit harder to get TFP to start as you have to show a higher level of proficiency.

Nudes - which is the genre of the OP - you have to show a much much higher level of proficiency before you get models to do TFP with you. Thankfully there are things one can do - workshops, going in with other photographers as he outlined - to gain that sort of skills. Now getting models to come pay you shoot nudes of them - you have to be on a whole other level entirely.

Paul Tirado Photography wrote:

I am going to have to disagree with you this - the genre does matter.  Beauty and fashion you do not have to be that good at the beginning to get models to do trade work with you.  Glam is a bit harder to get TFP to start as you have to show a higher level of proficiency.

Nudes - which is the genre of the OP - you have to show a much much higher level of proficiency before you get models to do TFP with you. Thankfully there are things one can do - workshops, going in with other photographers as he outlined - to gain that sort of skills. Now getting models to come pay you shoot nudes of them - you have to be on a whole other level entirely.

I will agree with you to an extend - it is much harder but not impossible.
I will also agree with workshops and the likes as you not only get a model but you learn techniques that are useful for starters.

I will stick by my guns and say this - find girls to TF with you - they are out there!

If you want to throw money away on test and figure out how things work so beat it. It's your decision ...

I also would say that models do eat and they need to get paid. I clearly didn't state otherwise but as I read the OP it seems like all this is test. SO NO, it is my personal opinion that they should not get paid especially when they are benefiting from it.

Ivan Monge wrote:
[I will agree with you to an extend - it is much harder but not impossible.

Well I never argued it was impossible nor that they shouldn't try - my argument was against the notion that you said genre doesn't matter.

Maybe the OP knows an exhibitionist friend who trusts them or maybe the find that needle in the haystack but at some point you have to deal with practicality as the OP seems to have done.  Maybe the $50 or $100 buck he was going to go in with a friend is a better deal than dealing with rejection and man hours it would take to get a model on the level of that he would get for paying for the shoot.

Digital Reflectionz wrote:
Hey,
I'm just getting started here and have already done a paid shoot with a model. I have quickly realized that many of the models here want to be paid to do a shoot. I am desperatly trying to build up my portfolio and realize that hiring all of these modelz is going to be expensive. I only have a budget of about $200 a month to spend hiring models.

my question is- have you ever heard of two photographers going in together paying the models fees and both shoot the model at the same I.e-
time/split the time 30 mins each. I think this would be an easier way to get more variation in a portfolio, build more contacts and save money.

Is this acceptable or just weird? it was just a thought I had and would love to hear from some of the experts/pros in the community.

thks
-DR

Although not normal practice, most models are mainly concerned with the hourly rate she is asking for whether it be 1 or 2 or 3 photographers.
Some will have limits on how many can split and stress that for that paying time it would be beneficial for the photographers that you stick to one general genre to make time go more efficiently for everyone and let the photoshoot flow nicely.

This kind of arrangement does need to be discussed more-so than a single booking so that everyone is clear on what is happening.

Digital Reflectionz wrote:
Hey,
I'm just getting started here and have already done a paid shoot with a model. I have quickly realized that many of the models here want to be paid to do a shoot. I am desperatly trying to build up my portfolio and realize that hiring all of these modelz is going to be expensive. I only have a budget of about $200 a month to spend hiring models.

my question is- have you ever heard of two photographers going in together paying the models fees and both shoot the model at the same I.e-
time/split the time 30 mins each. I think this would be an easier way to get more variation in a portfolio, build more contacts and save money.

Is this acceptable or just weird? it was just a thought I had and would love to hear from some of the experts/pros in the community.

thks
-DR

The fastest way to build your port will be going to meets. You get to work with other and learn from them also. The drawback is the artistic side of things. When many photographers are present then they can put a limit on what you can do. There were times when someone brought in a lightstand and strobe and it just got in the way. The guy wanted to move to another location and I had to intervene. I didn't get to do my shoot. In another meet some guy got pist off and left because the other photographer was taking too long. In order for these things to work they have to be very well organized. If you are going for a 2 photogs and 1 model then each photog should have a time limit. It can work- it also depends if the other photog is not a pest.

Digital Reflectionz wrote:
Thanks everyone for all of the comments! Being new and all I kinda just expected that I would need to pay models to build my port up. I will take all of your suggestions.

I'm glad that it is acceptable to do a double shoot. I'm going to try and do one soon and I will let you know how it goes! Maybe I will learn something too!

My port is pretty much just of this one Model. I'm an artist as well and always draw nudes so it was something I was comfortable with. I'm planning on expanding so I will be doing clothed shoots too.

thks again for the input I really appreciate it.

As you continue with photography, you're going to hear different opinions from a lot of different folks.

It's important to know what you want, how you feel about compensating a model for his or her time, and figure out what's best for your learning process (highly-skilled model vs less-skilled but $0).

Some will proudly tell you they have never, ever, ever paid a model, and you should never pay one either.  There are millions of models willing to pose for free! 

Some always pay their models.

Some mix it up.

What's important is that if you decide to spend the money, you should hire a good model...someone who does the type of work you're looking to create, for a living.  There is no point in paying someone who sucks...the money doesn't make the model magically awesome.  Does that make sense?  Picking the first available model who wants to make money will not help you any. 

Nor will working with totally green models all the time to save money.

For you, I'd suggest a mix: hire as many stellar models as your budget will allow, and fill in with those willing to work for free/trade.

Concerning splitting the cost...some models would never agree to it, but so long as it is only one or two photographers, or the time really is equally split, you won't have a problem finding someone who's up for it.

For more info/discussion about affordability, check out this (hopefully) helpful thread!:

https://secure.modelmayhem.com/po.php?t … 060&page=1