SayCheeZ!  wrote:

Does anyone remember that photographer from Wisconsin that would make a big deal out of the 'award' for photography that he 'won'?

EVERYONE that ever applied for the photography contest (and people that the company recruited) all were 'award winners', and if you wanted to get a trophy to commemorate 'your accomplishment' all you had to do was send $79.95.

He was told this and he still didn't care.  He was adament that his work was great because he won the award.

More about this scam can be found on one of these links
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pict … =firefox-a

---------------------------------------------

A similar type of scam is IFPO. http://www.aipress.com/
They'll certify you as a photographer and sell you worthless 'official' press passes and id cards.

Considering IFPO has to do with photography, which is a major portion of graphic arts... I wonder why their web page looks so cheesy and amateur?  Did they hire an IFPO certified web designer to make it for 'em?

---------------------------------------------------

I've had certificates from recognized Photography institutions (ie: PMA) and even when applying for a job with companies that were PMA members, they didn't give 2 $hits about the certification that I received  (and believe me, this one wasn't easy to get nor was it given out to everyone).

Many people that are PPA members say the same thing about their awards and certificates.

So if the general public or employer doesn't give a rats ass about certification from a respected organization, why would they give a damn if you purchased a certificate from some fake sheepskin printing mill?

So you're saying PPA and their contests are scams?

me voy wrote:

It may not affect your ability to take a photo but it may keep you from getting hired at some companies as staff photographer even if you have a killer portfolio.

I applied for a staff photographer position at a local newspaper and did not get the job. They hired someone with a degree. They actually told me during the interview to come back once I get a degree in something. A Certificate is probably less than a B.A. and a Masters but it is something.

Most dailies i have dealt with require a degree or years of experience. I was lucky I landed a daily while working my way through school.

me voy wrote:
It may not affect your ability to take a photo but it may keep you from getting hired at some companies as staff photographer even if you have a killer portfolio.

I applied for a staff photographer position at a local newspaper and did not get the job. They hired someone with a degree. They actually told me during the interview to come back once I get a degree in something. A Certificate is probably less than a B.A. and a Masters but it is something.

Absolutely not. In fact, it's quite the opposite in my experience. Certifications are often viewed as a hokey title that's more about self-congratulations for people who didn't have the stamina or dedication to follow through on a real degree. It's not viewed as a measure of competence...but often the opposite.

It sounds like you're misunderstanding what they were saying.

The potential employer who told you to "get a degree...any degree" was tactfully telling you that there is nothing in your resume that conveyed to them any level of follow through on your part. "Show us you can finish something substantial" is what they're were politely telling you.

A Certification is a shortcut. It takes less time, less resources and less commitment. That is exactly what they DIDN'T want to see from you.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
So you're saying PPA and their contests are scams?

No, not at all.

Of all the contests and organizations that are listed, PMA and PPA are standards in the industry and well respected, and my mention of them wasn't in the same section as the ones that most people think of as scam organizations.

To clarify, some PPA members have told me that their certification or awards did little (if anything) in the way of getting more business.  My PMA certifications didn't do anything for me.  This may be because the average person never heard of PPA or PMA and could give a damn if they did. YMMV.

PPA awards do make it so that you get recognition from your peers, but peers don't pay the bills.

SayCheeZ!  wrote:

Couldn't you just make up some sort of certificates and buy some trophies to get the same effect?  You'll save some money by cutting out the middleman.

Simple answer. No.  I respect my clients too much to lie to them.
I can point out that PPA is an international organization with a 100+ year history that holds a higher standard for what it awards .
Someone could print up a tear sheet claiming they've been published or they can hand you a copy of National Geographic with a spread of their work in it.  I point out the difference to my clients.
In regards to what it means to others in the industry....I really don't give a shit.  Am I being hired by other photographers?  No.  I am being hired by people wanting portraits and weddings shot, and to them it means a lot.  If an art director wants to hire me for a shoot, I show them my port.  Why?  Because I know that's what matters to them, so that's what I'll show them.  If a bride wants to know she's hiring someone who knows what they're doing and warrants being paid more than another person, she is reassured by the legitimate certificates and awards from a recognized source.
Winning an Oscar raises an actor's pay by a few million per picture because more people will go see their next movie no matter how bad it might be.  That is the mentality of the public in general and you need to play to it if you want them to hire you more often at a higher rate.
Know your clients and what's important to them, then give it to them.  If it's art directors who only care about the quality of your image, then only show them quality images.  If it's people off the street who like to be told that the person they're hiring is worth hiring, then show them real proof that they can go home and check on Google to verify it's legit.

Downtown Pro Photo wrote:

Simple answer. No.  I respect my clients too much to lie to them.
I can point out that PPA is an international organization with a 100+ year history that holds a higher standard for what it awards .
Someone could print up a tear sheet claiming they've been published or they can hand you a copy of National Geographic with a spread of their work in it.  I point out the difference to my clients.
In regards to what it means to others in the industry....I really don't give a shit.  Am I being hired by other photographers?  No.  I am being hired by people wanting portraits and weddings shot, and to them it means a lot.  If an art director wants to hire me for a shoot, I show them my port.  Why?  Because I know that's what matters to them, so that's what I'll show them.  If a bride wants to know she's hiring someone who knows what they're doing and warrants being paid more than another person, she is reassured by the legitimate certificates and awards from a recognized source.
Winning an Oscar raises an actor's pay by a few million per picture because more people will go see their next movie no matter how bad it might be.  That is the mentality of the public in general and you need to play to it if you want them to hire you more often at a higher rate.
Know your clients and what's important to them, then give it to them.  If it's art directors who only care about the quality of your image, then only show them quality images.  If it's people off the street who like to be told that the person they're hiring is worth hiring, then show them real proof that they can go home and check on Google to verify it's legit.

Agreed

Downtown Pro Photo wrote:

Simple answer. No.  I respect my clients too much to lie to them.
I can point out that PPA is an international organization with a 100+ year history that holds a higher standard for what it awards .
Someone could print up a tear sheet claiming they've been published or they can hand you a copy of National Geographic with a spread of their work in it.  I point out the difference to my clients.
In regards to what it means to others in the industry....I really don't give a shit.  Am I being hired by other photographers?  No.  I am being hired by people wanting portraits and weddings shot, and to them it means a lot.  If an art director wants to hire me for a shoot, I show them my port.  Why?  Because I know that's what matters to them, so that's what I'll show them.  If a bride wants to know she's hiring someone who knows what they're doing and warrants being paid more than another person, she is reassured by the legitimate certificates and awards from a recognized source.
Winning an Oscar raises an actor's pay by a few million per picture because more people will go see their next movie no matter how bad it might be.  That is the mentality of the public in general and you need to play to it if you want them to hire you more often at a higher rate.
Know your clients and what's important to them, then give it to them.  If it's art directors who only care about the quality of your image, then only show them quality images.  If it's people off the street who like to be told that the person they're hiring is worth hiring, then show them real proof that they can go home and check on Google to verify it's legit.

Agreed!

Thanks for your post!

JeanDphoto wrote:
Certified Professional Photographer Comission....

Hummmm.... Not a Clue on who is running this, no board of directors and/or board of members.... No such thing as Group insurance packages and legal support, No mention of credentials to be recognized by the Education system...

Oh well I'll pass and print my own ...

Regards

Are you kidding!

You have never heard of PPA

KFM Designs wrote:

Are you kidding!

You have never heard of PPA

Jean D is referring to this link, which someone else posted on the first page and what most people thought was the entity that you're ashing about.

http://certifiedphotographer.com/what-is-certification/

SayCheeZ!  wrote:
Jean D is referring to this link, which someone else posted on the first page and what most people thought was the entity that you're ashing about.

http://certifiedphotographer.com/what-is-certification/

Thank you SayCheeZ :-)
Exactly. The title of the thread being somewhat misleading. Sorry for my ignorance !

Cheers

Jean

Guss W wrote:
I have mixed feelings about the CPP.  I have been a member of professional photographer groups for decades now, and I think the CPP conveys a certain degree of respect within the professional community.  While there are exceptions, I can detect a degree of competence amongst the holders of the CPP that shows up in their routine work.  It's certainly something that the "weekend warriors" don't often have, and it's truly earned, not just purchased.

On the other hand, you can certainly get established without it, and your portfolio speaks far louder.

There are a couple of gripes I have with the way they handle things...

One, it must be renewed.  This setup is basically self-serving for the people who created the system.  To get renewed you need to take courses, and of course they are there to sell you courses.  My opinion is that good artistic taste is forever. 

The other aspect I don't like is that your image submissions - at least some proportion of them - need to be from actual client jobs.  This rules out photographers who create works on speculation - artists and stock photographers.  So I guess Ansel Adams wouldn't have qualified for a CPP unless he took on some advertising jobs or did kiddie shots.

If that is your line of work then that is acceptable image submission. The idea is that the submission of client work should represent what you shoot. CPP does not want to see you submitting six images of landscapes if you are primarily a wedding and/or portrait photographer.

But you are right, the work must be commssioned and not speculative and sold after the fact.

KFM Designs wrote:

Are you kidding!

You have never heard of PPA

In the photo world maybe 1 out of 10 have heard of PPA. In the real world of clients maybe 1 out of 10,000. Which is why I tend to view PPA certification as worth very little. In Central CA good luck finding a member. You will have better luck finding the Dodo or Snipe Hunting.

fullmetalphotographer wrote:
In the photo world maybe 1 out of 10 have heard of PPA. In the real world of clients maybe 1 out of 10,000. Which is why I tend to view PPA certification as worth very little. In Central CA good luck finding a member. You will have better luck finding the Dodo or Snipe Hunting.

Try their Find-a-Photographer and use the check-box for Certified:
http://www.ppa.com/findaphotographer/

No, there aren't many in Fresno, but maybe that just says something about Fresno.  There are lots of them in the Tampa area.  It  could give you an advantage if you went for it.

JeanDphoto wrote:
Certified Professional Photographer Comission....

Hummmm.... Not a Clue on who is running this, no board of directors and/or board of members.... No such thing as Group insurance packages and legal support, No mention of credentials to be recognized by the Education system...

Oh well I'll pass and print my own ...

Regards

No, it's not something recognized by the formal education establishment.  The formal education establishment does little to serve their needs.  Good luck to the people with art school degrees.  Maybe they can get jobs at art schools.

KFM Designs wrote:

Are you kidding!

You have never heard of PPA

How about OPP?   Who thinks it's wrong? 'cos I'm splittin' and co-hittin' at....

Guss W wrote:

No, it's not something recognized by the formal education establishment.  The formal education establishment does little to serve their needs.  Good luck to the people with art school degrees.  Maybe they can get jobs at art schools.

Yep, that's me, got that and a lot more. What is funny is that most who are accomplished don't have to down any other form or route to success in photography...

SayCheeZ!  wrote:
...
I think anyone that's truly in the business would immediately think twice about hiring someone that's holding an IFPO or CPP certificate, or even stating that they're a 'reporter' or 'photojournalist' for "Examiner.com".

All of those entities are simply set up so that any and all 'wannabees' can pretend that they're official in some capacity or another.

While I am not a CPP myself, I feel I must come to their defense on this.  They have to earn that certificate.  In an age when anyone can buy a business license and be a "professional", it is one of the very few things the public can have some reliance on.  I know a good many of the certified people in my area and they are the kind you can count on to deliver CONSISTENTLY, not just get lucky occasionally.  Most are full-time professionals who support their families on the photography business.  The CPP is nothing like IFPO.

Guss W wrote:
While I am not a CPP myself, I feel I must come to their defense on this.  They have to earn that certificate.  In an age when anyone can buy a business license and be a "professional", it is one of the very few things the public can have some reliance on.  I know a good many of the certified people in my area and they are the kind you can count on to deliver CONSISTENTLY, not just get lucky occasionally.  Most are full-time professionals who support their families on the photography business.  The CPP is nothing like IFPO.

True. But, I wonder what the CPP certificate brings to your business in the eyes of most clients? It is not an accredited certificate and really, while you are increasing your knowledge in some way, does that equate into a benefit for your business. I do not see it in academia, fine art, or commercial. Maybe a wedding client may see the acronym and bite, but they still may not know what it means.

penn wrote:
...
True. But, I wonder what the CPP certificate brings to your business in the eyes of most clients? It is not an accredited certificate and really, while you are increasing your knowledge in some way, does that equate into a benefit for your business. I do not see it in academia, fine art, or commercial. Maybe a wedding client may see the acronym and bite, but they still may not know what it means.

It at least shows a level of peer-review and is fairly standardized across the country.

Try your own experiment.  Pretend you are tired of the Walmart pictures of your kid and you want something better.  Try a Google search of your area and see what percentage of photographers might satisfy you.  Then do a PPA search for certified photographers (link in earlier post) and see if the percentage of competent photographers doesn't increase substantially.

Guss W wrote:

It at least shows a level of peer-review and is fairly standardized across the country.

Try your own experiment.  Pretend you are tired of the Walmart pictures of your kid and you want something better.  Try a Google search of your area and see what percentage of photographers might satisfy you.  Then do a PPA search for certified photographers (link in earlier post) and see if the percentage of competent photographers doesn't increase substantially.

No,, I mentioned CPP..

In Nashville, PPA outnumbers all, and or, is in conjunction with all others, WPPI looks to come in second, then WPJA, then CPP, then MP in terms of popularity. However, "years of experience is by far the most listed, and all are portrait or wedding photographers including the franchises... On the google page it was 6 found before the search started to point to other states and organizations.

I still do not see how getting the CPP certification = money well spent.

SayCheeZ!  wrote:
...
I think anyone that's truly in the business would immediately think twice about hiring someone that's holding an IFPO or CPP certificate, or even stating that they're a 'reporter' or 'photojournalist' for "Examiner.com".

All of those entities are simply set up so that any and all 'wannabees' can pretend that they're official in some capacity or another.

Guss W wrote:
While I am not a CPP myself, I feel I must come to their defense on this.  They have to earn that certificate.  In an age when anyone can buy a business license and be a "professional", it is one of the very few things the public can have some reliance on.  I know a good many of the certified people in my area and they are the kind you can count on to deliver CONSISTENTLY, not just get lucky occasionally.  Most are full-time professionals who support their families on the photography business.  The CPP is nothing like IFPO.

Please note that the CPP that I was referring to in that part of my message was the Certified Professional Photographer thing which someone linked on the first page, issued by some fly by night unknown company (The Professional Photographic Commission).  http://certifiedphotographer.com/what-is-certification/

SB Glamour Photos wrote:
It's almost like buying a canon makes you a great photographer!

It doesn't?
Damn.
I'm gonna return all my stuff tomorrow!

Guss W wrote:
No, it's not something recognized by the formal education establishment.  The formal education establishment does little to serve their needs.  Good luck to the people with art school degrees.  Maybe they can get jobs at art schools.

I have worked for 20 plus years for various publications, Scripps League, Pulitzer Publications, Lee Enterprises, In order to work full time for those companies you needed a degree. I can name more companies with tha requirement. The CCP and 2 bucks might get you a cup of coffee. Now as degree I can use it for other jobs other than photography. Lets be blunt, CCP recognized by nobody and by a group nobody has heard of (real world not photo world) or a degree from an credited college which will have the greater impact on your earning potential.

Guss W wrote:
Try their Find-a-Photographer and use the check-box for Certified:
http://www.ppa.com/findaphotographer/

No, there aren't many in Fresno, but maybe that just says something about Fresno.  There are lots of them in the Tampa area.  It  could give you an advantage if you went for it.

It says less photographers per population and smaller population. Again the question is what value is CCP from a group that no one has heard of in the real world. PPA lives in a vacuum with no impact in the real world. Maybe if PPA did some marketing the value of their club to the general public. Telling the advantages of hiring their club members it might makes sense, but right now PPA has no meaning in the real world, where as a degree does.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
I know it's silly but you'd be surprised at how many people make a huge deal out of certificates. Not only in this industry but others as well.

As an example, we have a local photographer who's been around for years, has awards for just about everything but all I hear about is I'm going to xyz photographer because he's got certifications.

May sound silly but I bet in would increase the bottom line.

I prefer to let the pictures on my wall speak for my abilities rather than the papers mounted to laminated wood under plexiglass.

If someone chooses another person because they boast certifications in PPA, CCP, XYZ, PDQ or anything else, then I certainly can't argue with them. There's no accounting for bad taste.

The papers people SHOULD care about are business licenses, insurance, and contracts.  But some people still get suckered into buying the undercarriage sealant protectant when they buy a new car.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

I prefer to let the pictures on my wall speak for my abilities rather than the papers mounted to laminated wood under plexiglass.

If someone chooses another person because they boast certifications in PPA, CCP, XYZ, PDQ or anything else, then I certainly can't argue with them. There's no accounting for bad taste.

The papers people SHOULD care about are business licenses, insurance, and contracts.  But some people still get suckered into buying the undercarriage sealant protectant when they buy a new car.

Not exactly sure how having a business license, insurance and contracts equals being a great photographer and having certificates for acheivement and membership in a group equals untalented hack with bad taste.
Getting all the legal requirements to be in business only means you fillled out the paperwork and paid the fees.  I know lots of people who have done that in many fields who never should have been allowed to charge for what they do.
Joining an organization only requires filling out the forms an paying the fees, means nothing.  Earning a certification through a recognized and establised professional orgainization or winning awards through them does show a commitment to producing good work.
You place no value on it.  That's fine.  I'm not looking for you to hire me.  The people who do hire me value the awards and certificates, so I get them.  Does that make me a better photographer?  No.  Does that make them think I'm of more value that a studio without all the certificates and awards hanging on prints?  Most definitely. 
I regularly get 3x what the studio down the street gets for the same job because I have the "useless paper" and they don't.
Client doesn't know what PPA and it's certificates and degrees mean?  I explain it to them as I would about my work in general.
It sounds like your entire sales pitch is "Look at my wall, great images, now hire me"  I'm sure you explain how you work, your experience and skill, maybe even throw in a few big clients you've worked for, tell them about quality gear and how you know how to use it.  Throwing in certificates and awards is just another marketing tool.
Does it matter if I think it's important?  No.  Only that it gets people to hire me.

1KWS wrote:
I would like to do it.  I have been reading through Photography 10th edition by London.  Doing some of the online questions from the previous editions.  Once I think I am good to go on the previous editions I will pay to do the 10th edition questions.  I figure if I am going to pay the money to declaire my canidacy I want to be ready for to test.  The reason I do want to become certified is mainly to be able to use it in ads. I know that it more than likely won't change my photography, but with so many people with cameras, it may be one thing that that may make a potential client pick me over someone else and justify them paying my higher prices.

I've hired quite a few photographers in the last few years (I think it was like $36K in one year at one point). If I saw you list that, I'd round-file your resume in a second.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

I prefer to let the pictures on my wall speak for my abilities rather than the papers mounted to laminated wood under plexiglass.

If someone chooses another person because they boast certifications in PPA, CCP, XYZ, PDQ or anything else, then I certainly can't argue with them. There's no accounting for bad taste.

The papers people SHOULD care about are business licenses, insurance, and contracts.  But some people still get suckered into buying the undercarriage sealant protectant when they buy a new car.

Yes and no, on this one. I would say these days a portfolio is about 25%-50% of what I judge a shooter by. To be blunt portfolios lie. They are the best of a shooters work. It does not mean it is their consistent work. I have been burned twice by portfolios. So these days I want to see their latest work, check work references, and a what formal training they had hopefully a degree.

The same basic issues the shooters don't know how to shoot manual exposure and do not understand the relationship of ISO shutter speed and f/stops.

I have even ran into so call pros how can't use a meter, camera, handheld or flash meter. The best was one person who and I am not kidding tried to use eTTL with studioflash even after he had been given the exposure settings.