Jay Lee Studios wrote:
The only time I have ever brought any weapon to a shoot is ...never. If I need to throw my camera at a model and run I have issues. I normally work with models that I check references on or that have shot with friends of mine. Being a veteran...there is not much a model could pull out of her bag that would actually scare me.

You are a stand up guy!  Like you, I know how to shoot a gun, but I have no need to carry one anymore.  I applaud you!  And thank you for your service to this country! 

Wynd Mulysa wrote:

Um...
Pitbulls are cute, cuddly, sensitive and wise dogs.  I don't really get your analogy.

Only someone who does not know dogs would make such an analogy.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
So you are a drug dealer?  That taped phone call of drama between a "rival drug dealer" being kidnapped is so scary, that I wont ever deal drugs!  The vast majority of killings in the streets of cities like yours and mine are done between rival gang members ... many of which come up from Mexico.  So unless you've got some "rival" wanting to kidnap you for money or kill you, what are you worried about?

Right...that makes kidnapping okay. Why should you worry about it if it's not a crime against "you" huh? It's cool until it comes to your neighborhood. Collateral damage and innocent bystanders (and all the related crime) is just a fact of life.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Only barbaric terrorists, and gangsters use guns.

LOL! Comical.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

You are a stand up guy!  Like you, I know how to shoot a gun, but I have no need to carry one anymore.  I applaud you!  And thank you for your service to this country! 

Thanks bud!

Rays Fine Art wrote:
I sincerely hope that on any shoot on which I'm working in any capacity, the photographer would immediately fire anyone bringing any sort of weapon or other device on the set "for his/her protection" because I would walk off the set if he did not.

Would that include someone with a concealed weapons permit who carries everywhere it's legal?

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
Um...
Pitbulls are cute, cuddly, sensitive and wise dogs.

All breeds are...until they're Not. I won't leave ANY animal around a newborn...but hey, that's me. To each his own.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Only someone who does not know dogs would make such an analogy.

Maybe you should get your facts in order...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa … ted_States

But yes, it usually has a lot to do with the dog's owner. And sadly, the stereotype (and analogy) still applies.

And my my, I'd hate to "profile" a dog's owner or anything.   LOL!

Wynd Mulysa wrote:
Um...
Pitbulls are cute, cuddly, sensitive and wise dogs.  I don't really get your analogy.

As my avatar suggests

olegvolk Oleg Volk wrote:
Most of my models already carry sidearms. Realistically, the only reason why you'd need one on a photo shoot is if you walk into a trap the first time.

Assuming that onehas a concealed weapons permit, they are best served carrying without judgement and wherever legal, photo shoots included. "Concealed" entails not informing others, so there is no obligation to tell anyone nor seek their approval.

rp_photo wrote:
Assuming that onehas a concealed weapons permit, they are best served carrying without judgement and wherever legal, photo shoots included. "Concealed" entails not informing others, so there is no obligation to tell anyone nor seek their approval.

This.

In fact, it kinda defeats the whole purpose of "concealed" carry to make it common knowledge. But, I still think pepper spray is a better idea for most models...UNLESS the model is going to get proper weapons training.

Just throwing a pistol in your purse is NOT the right strategy for personal safety. Part of that training is knowing that it's only used in life-safety situations. It's not a tool to make threats. But it IS just a tool.

How many models have "gun" tactical or "cowgirl" pistol/boots shots in their portfolios? How many are now rushing to remove them to be "politically correct". LOL!

Comical! Cuz remember..."gun" photoshoots are now extra "edgy"! Haaahahahahaaa!
To funny.

Here...let's see what the boxoffice results are...that will tell us what to think.

ArtisticGlamour wrote:
Right...that makes kidnapping okay. Why should you worry about it if it's not a crime against "you" huh? It's cool until it comes to your neighborhood. Collateral damage and innocent bystanders (and all the related crime) is just a fact of life.

LOL! Comical.

Laugh at me all you want, but I'm not afraid.  A gun is not going to make me any safer.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Laugh at me all you want, but I'm not afraid.  A gun is not going to make me any safer.

Man, I wouldn't laugh at you for making that decision. That's a personal decision that everyone has to make on their own.

Personal safety is a HUGE responsibility and should not be taken lightly!

Many people do not want to commit the time and training to do it properly, and are much better off not making that type of commitment if they can't carry it out. (or just don't have the temperament). That is nothing to put you down.

I'm totally NOT laughing at you Patrick! Seriously.

I laugh at how many people "rationalize" that the Phoenix kidnappings are "okay" because it's not directed at them. That's not just you...it's the whole country. And it's a reason Phoenix is still dangerous, and a reason to carry (for many).

ArtisticGlamour wrote:
And my my, I'd hate to "profile" a dog's owner or anything.   LOL!

I know the facts.  You don't know me. or the dogs I've owned and trained.  A dog is not a "weapon" as a gun is, although some are trained to attack.  Guns have one use ... and that is to kill.  Dogs are not supposed to kill as that is not their purpose in most cases.  I've had pitbulls, and I know that they are generally sweet nature, but are more likely to attack other dogs or animals than to attack a human.  Most of the cases where a human gets bitten is when they are trying to separate a dog fight.  Another thing ... guns can't be trained or think for themselves  at all.  Besides killing, and shooting the gun at target practice, what other use does a gun have?  A prop?

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I know the facts.  You don't know me. or the dogs I've owned and trained.

And same for me.

Again...the analogy I made was that "guns are like pitbulls...most people don't want to see or talk about them at their cocktail partys"...but when they need them it's about how fast can they respond.

I stand by my analogy. I could have just as easily mentioned any breed of guard dog.

ArtisticGlamour wrote:
Man, I wouldn't laugh at you for making that decision. That's a personal decision that everyone has to make on their own.

Personal safety is a HUGE responsibility and should not be taken lightly!

Many people do not want to commit the time and training to do it properly, and are much better off not making that type of commitment if they can't carry it out. (or just don't have the temperament). That is nothing to put you down.

I'm totally NOT laughing at you Patrick! Seriously.
I laugh at how many people "rationalize" that the Phoenix kidnappings are "okay" because it's not directed at them. That's not just you...it's the whole country. And it's a reason Phoenix is still dangerous, and a reason to carry (for many).

I understand.  I've gone through law enforcement training, and I know how to use a gun.  It is my choice not to carry because I've seen how a gun can also have the reverse effect of excellerating a bad situation in a worse one.  Personal safety is an important responsibility, but not as dependent on what weapon one carries as on other things ... like the choices we make.  Sometimes we can make all the choices we think are best, and still become "collateral damage" as you say.  I've been able to negotiate out of some hairy situations though,

Understood, I do not think the kidnappings are ok.   I can't blame you for carrying.  What I am saying is that we've always had dangerous situations all through our lives, and that kidnappings can result from our associations with other people.  When it comes to adults, most are not stranger abductions.  Children are another story completely!  Heck, I was kidnapped by two women, and a gun would not have helped me.  In fact, if I had a gun, that could have turned it into a worse situation for me.  That is something I'm sure of!

ArtisticGlamour wrote:

And same for me.

Again...the analogy I made was that "guns are like pitbulls...most people don't want to see or talk about them at their cocktail partys"...but when they need them it's about how fast can they respond.

I stand by my analogy. I could have just as easily mentioned any breed of guard dog.

That's for sure!  Sometimes I think that people only want to focus on the positives of dogs and guns when it comes to talking points. 

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I've had pitbulls, and I know that they are generally sweet nature, but are more likely to attack other dogs or animals than to attack a human.  Most of the cases where a human gets bitten is when they are trying to separate a dog fight.

Bro, take a read of the attached documentation regarding the attacks on the wikipedia link I provided...it may surprise you. It may be the dog, it may be the owner's training...but bottom line...Pitbulls cause more deaths in the USA every year than any other dog, for the past 5+years...and by a margin of double the nearest dog. (Rotweillers). Fact.

Many are children killed by the family (or neighbor's) dog...so, I'm just saying You may trust your pitbull, but do you trust your neighbor's pitbull? LOL!
Sorry, I don't trust either.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa … ted_States

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Sometimes we can make all the choices we think are best, and still become "collateral damage" as you say.  I've been able to negotiate out of some hairy situations though,

And you were trained to combine good negotation skills with a "position of strength", or at least to "not show weakness".

But, most models will not have that training. Most models will not be in a good position to "talk their way out of a hairy situation".

But, if they are...they will likely NOT "peacefully negotiate" their way out.

We shouldn't give them that unlikely hope, but should instead "open their eyes" to the reality, and TRAIN them to use proper self-protection tools that may save their life. (probably good key-ring pepper spray for most).

ArtisticGlamour wrote:
But, most models will not have that training OR the ability to not "show fear". Most models will not be in a good position to "talk their way out of a hairy situation" like we may be able to do...and should instead plan on NOT being in the situation in the first place...

But, if they are...they will likely not "peacefully negotiate" their way out. We shouldn't give them that false hope, but should instead TRAIN them to use proper self-protection tools that may save their life.

Many "non-gun" types assume that carrying a weapon makes a person more "hot-headed", but the rest of us know the exact opposite is true. Being armed and knowing the potential consequences actually makes one calmer, appear more confident, and therefore better able to peacefully deescalate.

rp_photo wrote:
Many "non-gun" types assume that carrying a weapon makes a person more "hot-headed", but the rest of us know the exact opposite is true. Being armed and knowing the potential consequences actually makes one calmer, better able to verbally deescalate, and appear more confident.

Spot ON. In fact it's a heavy responsibility to carry around...and it does make one start thinking about scenarios, and planning more seriously and responsibly. It's a complete different mindset, because it REALLY starts to make you think about how to AVOID ever having to use it.

You don't ever "win" a gunfight, because even if you save your life (or family's) you will still spend tens-of-thousands in legal costs in this country PROVING you were in the right. But, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

ArtisticGlamour wrote:

Bro, take a read of the attached documentation regarding the attacks on the wikipedia link I provided...it may surprise you. It may be the dog, it may be the owner's training...but bottom line...Pitbulls cause more deaths in the USA every year than any other dog, for the past 5+years...and by a margin of double the nearest dog. (Rotweillers). Fact.

Many are children killed by the family (or neighbor's) dog...so, I'm just saying You may trust your pitbull, but do you trust your neighbor's pitbull? LOL!
Sorry, I don't trust either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa … ted_States

I understand that gun owners and dog owners (in particular pitbulls!) can  be very defensive in proclaiming their rights of ownership.  Alright, let's look at some more numbers;

"There are approximately 78.2 million owned dogs in the United States; Thirty-nine percent of U.S. households own at least one dog."

Source is Humane Society

"Most estimates range between 39% and 50% of US households having at least one gun (that's about 43-55 million households). The estimates for the number of privately owned guns range from 190 million to 300 million. Removed those that skew the stats for their own purposes the best estimates are about 45% or 52 million of American households owning 260 million guns)."

Source is wiki.answers.com

So now that we know how many dogs are in households vs how many guns are in household, lets compare which is more dangerous to have.  Let's look at the number of deaths;

There have "38 U.S. fatal dog attacks which occurred in 2012.2 Despite being regulated in Military Housing areas and over 600 U.S. cities,3 pit bulls contributed to 61% (23) of these deaths. Pit bulls make up less than 5% of the total U.S. dog population"  Alright, that is deaths per year.

Source is Dogbite.org

Now the number of deaths due to firearms on a DAILY basis; About 85 Americans are shot dead daily -- 53 of them suicides. Every day, one of those killed by firearms is 14 or younger. 

The source is Bloomberg.com

Very stark differences!  Quite a large number of suicides by guns, yet I've never heard of anyone committing suicide through somehow using their dog?

I don't see how anyone can say that the risk of death from owning a pitbull is higher than through owning a gun?  I am an advocate of dog ownership, and I love my dogs!  I would consider getting liability insurance if I were currently owning a pitbull or any high risk breed.  It's not that expensive.

ArtisticGlamour wrote:

And you were trained to combine good negotation skills with a "position of strength", or at least to "not show weakness". I know I've been trained and I respect that.

But, most models will not have that training OR the ability to not "show fear".

Most models will not be in a good position to "talk their way out of a hairy situation" like we may be able to do...and should instead plan on NOT being in the situation in the first place...

But, if they are...they will likely not "peacefully negotiate" their way out.

We shouldn't give them that false hope, but should instead "open their eyes" to the reality, and TRAIN them to use proper self-protection tools that may save their life. (probably good key-ring pepper spray for most).

Actually, I've only been formally trained in suicide negotiation and prevention.  I've answered the suicide hotline and teen crisis hotline.  The only thing I know for sure is that the training helped me talk a buddy of mine out of killing himself ... and just helping save one life is good enough for me. 

Having been close to death, I don't fear it ... much.  I've got too much left to do before I check out!   It's not so much that I am fearless, it's that I have a strong will to survive.  I'm enjoying life to the max! 

rp_photo wrote:
Many "non-gun" types assume that carrying a weapon makes a person more "hot-headed", but the rest of us know the exact opposite is true. Being armed and knowing the potential consequences actually makes one calmer, better able to verbally deescalate, and appear more confident.

No one in this thread has said anything about gun owners who pack being "hot headed!"  That IS a mistaken assumption of knowing what "many non-gun types" think.  I am for gun ownership ... just not for assault weapons, and I'm for better regulations to prevent mentally ill people from getting their hands on guns.  After all, suicides account for the vast majority of gun deaths.

I'm a former gun owner, and most of my family own guns because they are hunters.  No one in my family has felt the need to own a gun for protection.  No one in my family has owned a semi-automatic weapon, nor any guns that hold more than 8 bullets.  One of my uncles was murdered by a robber with a gun, and even though my uncle had a gun, he couldn't get to it to defend himself fast enough.

The philosophy in my family is that if we can't hit our target with one or two bullets, it's a lost cause anyway.  My dad killed two deer with one bullet because of the way the two bucks were standing next to each other!  I'm no longer trying for a law enforcement career, as I gave that up for photography.  I don't hunt animals with anything but my camera, so i gave up my guns for good!

ArtisticGlamour wrote:
Spot ON. In fact it's a heavy responsibility to carry around...and it does make one start thinking about scenarios, and planning more seriously and responsibly. It's a complete different mindset, because it REALLY starts to make you think about how to AVOID ever having to use it.

You don't ever "win" a gunfight, because even if you save your life (or family's) you will still spend tens-of-thousands in legal costs in this country PROVING you were in the right. But, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

I've been attacked by a guy with a knife.  He beat me with the handle because he had it reversed in his hand.  I took a nasty beating, but I survived by getting away from him when I saw the opportunity.  If I had a gun, would I have shot him?  I don't know for sure ... but I hope not!  I would not want to live with the responsibility of taking someone else's life.  It is a heavy burden to consider. 

The reality is that I've never been shot at, much less wounded by a gun.  So I've never been in a "gun fight" either.  Have you been in a situation where you've been shot at?  Do you actually know anyone who saved their family or themselves because they carried a gun?  I don't personally know anyone who saved their family or themselves because of having a gun ... much less using it.  My uncle never had a chance to get his gun.  That was many years ago, when he was met at the door with a shotgun blast. 

One of my high school friends took her husbands shotgun and killed herself after a stand off with the cops outside.  She was a popular business owner and seemingly had every thing going for her.  She was in her mid 20's ... and that is why I take suicide prevention seriously!

George Ruge wrote:
An armed society, is a polite society.

Really?  How so?  Can you explain?

Patrick Walberg wrote:
The reality is that I've never been shot at, much less wounded by a gun.  So I've never been in a "gun fight" either.  Have you been in a situation where you've been shot at?  Do you actually know anyone who saved their family or themselves because they carried a gun?

Yes, I have been in those situations and it's not a discussion for public consumption. Suffice to say I've been around the unpleasant exchange of shots fired in anger more than once.

Also, I grew up in an area where people had to protect themselves and their families from predators coming into their homes to do them harm. I have been around firearms my entire life, and instructed and helped instruct defensive pistol classes.

In many instances people I have known would have been injured or killed without protection. I also lost a close family member to a drunk who fired his hunting rifle in drunken anger from his window across the street. (Ironically, over a dog issue, in fact)

In all of those instances it was not the weapon (or type of weapon) that made things dangerous but the people behind them...the weapon is just a tool of convenience. Good and bad...it's the people who are responsible for their actions. The weapon is just the tool.

Anna Von Leigh wrote:
Ok kids, I want to get other models ideas on this subject. Feeling protected on photo shoots. I'm talking about bringing a weapon or pepper spray, or something of that matter to a shoot.

We all have our bag full of clothes and makeup, do you also carry a knife? Gun? Taser?


*EDITED*

Jay Farrell wrote:
Oh for fuck's sake

ArtisticGlamour wrote:
Yes, I have been in those situations and it's not a discussion to have here. Suffice to say I've been around the unpleasant exchange of weapons fired in anger. Also, I grew up in an area where people had to protect themselves and their families from predators coming into their homes to do them harm. In many instances people I have known would have been injured or killed without protection. I also lost a close family member to a drunk who fired his hunting rifle in drunken anger from his window across the street. (Ironically, over a dog issue, in fact) In all of those instances it was not the weapon that made things dangerous but the people behind them...the weapon is just a tool of convenience. Good and bad...it's the people who are responsible for their actions. The weapon is just the tool.

Weapons are "tools" that make it easier to kill.  The vast majority of guns are used to kill a human being are used to kill oneself.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Weapons are "tools" that make it easier to kill.  The vast majority of guns are used to kill are used to kill oneself.

I can't disagree with anything you have stated. They are a tool for good or bad...it all depends upon the hands that hold them.

I will keep mine, but that's a personal decision that has to be made by each individual. With "Rights" come responsibilities. We still have those rights for awhile yet.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Really?  How so?  Can you explain?

When you know that the people around you are armed, you tend not to do anything to piss people off.

Oh, and the assholes tend to get dead.

George Ruge wrote:

When you know that the people around you are armed, you tend not to do anything to piss people off.

Oh, and the assholes tend to get dead.

...and yet all evidence seems to point to the opposite being true... Americans appear to many outsiders to be less tolerant, more brash and confrontational than societies with less access to firearms...

RKD Photographic wrote:

...and yet all evidence seems to point to the opposite being true... Americans appear to many outsiders to be less tolerant, more brash and confrontational than societies with less access to firearms...

That's the media for you, selling the America they're paid to sell.

Just like all of England is rolling, beautiful green hills and cottages with "God Save the Queen" playing over an invisible loudspeaker.

Also, those brash people live in New York and New Jersey.  It's sort of a small country all to itself.

KonstantKarma wrote:

That's the media for you, selling the America they're paid to sell.

Just like all of England is rolling, beautiful green hills and cottages with "God Save the Queen" playing over an invisible loudspeaker.

Also, those brash people live in New York and New Jersey.  It's sort of a small country all to itself.

and Texas... let's not forget them (BTW I have family in VA and friends in NM and LI, which may colour my perceptions, somewhat)...

KonstantKarma wrote:
That's the media for you, selling the America they're paid to sell.

What!  You mean we don't ALL think and act like this?
WTF...I want my tax money back!

Damn, and here after I just got the same cool haircut too...

Jay Lee Studios wrote:
The only time I have ever brought any weapon to a shoot is ...never. If I need to throw my camera at a model and run I have issues. I normally work with models that I check references on or that have shot with friends of mine. Being a veteran...there is not much a model could pull out of her bag that would actually scare me.

your camera swinging on the end of your neck strap is a weapon,,
pretty sure it kept me from a nasty encounter once

RKD Photographic wrote:

...and yet all evidence seems to point to the opposite being true... Americans appear to many outsiders to be less tolerant, more brash and confrontational than societies with less access to firearms...

We are nowhere near what I would consider an armed society at this time in the US. There's not enough people carrying on a daily basis. But FBI statistics show that where there are more citizens with cary permits, violent crime goes down. The district of Columbia has one of the highest murder rates of any areas in the US and is a "No Gun Zone". Where people are not allowed to protect themselves, criminals have carte-blanche.