Nicole Packs  wrote:
Guys...
some of you still don't get what I'm trying to say.
This isn't about me not liking his work. This is about me not liking his decision on the "best" photo out of the lot and not allowing me to have my own opinion of what I think the best photo is.

Look.
There are 15 images for example.
The photag chooses image A as a final retouched photo to use in HIS port.
But out of the 15 photos I want to have image B bc the pose is stronger and beneficial to MY port. 
All 15 images are greatly captured, but the photag will pick what he has captured the best through a photographer's perspective.
And I would like to pick the best out of that 15 where I have posed the best through a model's perspective.
When a photag tells me that no, image A is superior and therefore is the only image I can use in my port, I find that unfair. Because that is his opinion as photographer.
But as a model I only see that image B is the better photo AS A MODEL.
Hence why I believe the photag should have image A for his port and I should have image B for my port and we are both happy.

Koryn Locke wrote:
That's just the way it works.

Photographers take photos, and are the ones who OWN the images, so they are in control of what you receive.

Don't like it? You can either get over it, or select some other occupation/hobby, that you feel more in control of.

You aren't going to change the lay of the land by complaining about it. It's just not going to happen.

I'm not complaining.
Sure I'm frustrated, but I want to understand why it is the way it is.
Because TF doesn't feel like a well rounded trade.
Not looking to change anything either, I just want to understand the other perspective and discuss mine.

Nicole Packs  wrote:

I'm not complaining.
Sure I'm frustrated, but I want to understand why it is the way it is.
Because TF doesn't feel like a well rounded trade.
Not looking to change anything either, I just want to understand the other perspective and discuss mine.

Well it really isn't, nor was it ever.  It only has sort of gotten that way due to the interwebs.

Schlake wrote:
The problem is that you are picking photographers who are treating you like a disposable piece of meat.  Get better photographers who respect you as a person and understand that this is a collaboration between two creative people.

Except she's in NYC, and she want's to work in fashion (from what I gather reading her profile) and that means shooting with fashion shooters who, by and large, will not see it as a collaboration between two creative people.  You can't swing a dead cat in NYC without hitting a girl who will mutilate small animals to be photographed by anyone with more than a modicum of skill.  The signed agency girls are selective, but even they are plentiful if you have your act together.

The best photographers in the city will not treat her any better, but they will deliver better results, which, in the end, is all that really matters.  Yes, some are great guys and some are jerks, but the jerks are just as busy (if not busier).  It's all about what you produce.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
If I'm taking a head shot of you, I (and you) only need one.  I select down to the best few, and show you. I already know which one I'm going to use.  If you like one of the other selects better, that's fine.  But ultimately, you're coming to me, I would hope, because you like what I do and you want me to do what I do, with you.

And thats completely fine!
But I'd love the opportunity to select my own photos.
What I'm trying to say is, even though I am coming to you, if I don't like a photo of your choosing, its not usually due to to how I see myself as a model in that photo. Not how to took it. Maybe you chose something that I already have done similarly in my port? Maybe my mouth was open a little too wide. I dunno anything! Point is, I'm not proud of the photo as a model. I'm not questioning your skill or your work.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
You're local, I wouldn't mind photographing you, but that's how I work and I can't really do what I do any other way.  So, my job is to be very upfront with you before we agree to a shoot, and your job is to either agree to the terms, make a counter offer I might find acceptable, or decline.  It's pretty simple.

Absolutely.
Discussion before the actual shoot is very important, which is why I do it. But I mentioned in the original post that there are time where I get cheated out of what was earlier agreed on over the phone or in non-official writing.
In previous events, when it came down to my choosing, it became a problem all of the sudden. Sometimes the tog would not even give room for discussion. No was no.
I don't want to have to approach a tog and be that crazy model that forces upfront promises and compromises before a shoot. "Well you're going to do this right? And I'm going to get this FOR SURE, right?" I feel as though that would be uncomfortable for the both of us.
I like to keep things simple just as much as the tog. I just don't like the rules being switched around on me.

   Lightscapes wrote:
You are a young, attractive gal.  Lots of people will ask you to shoot TF with them and you should say yes to many.  But the rest is pretty simple.

  Ask for what you want, if it is crucial for you to pick the shots then say so, expect your images back within a reasonable time frame and get a reasonably firm idea of how many shots are to be returned.

  Write it down, you and photographer both sign and each keep a copy. Photographer does not want to sign, then no shoot.  Discuss this ahead of time so that there are no surprises for either of you.  Can that piece of paper be enforced ?  Not likely and certainly not worth the hassle, but it will definitely keep you from wasting 6 hours standing out in the freezing cold with same photographer again.

   It works.


  P.S.  Many photographers will object to being called "togs" !  Just saying. FYI.

Sorry! the togs is just for short bc it was such a long post. I don't mean to insult.

But anyway, what you're saying is, I could make my own release form to avoid these situations?
Models can make a release form?

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Sorry! the togs is just for short bc it was such a long post. I don't mean to insult.

But anyway, what you're saying is, I could make my own release form to avoid these situations?
Models can make a release form?

No.  You could make a work for hire contract, but you don't really want to, it's not worth it.  Find photographers whose portfolio is filled with the kind of images you want, and shoot with them.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

Except she's in NYC, and she want's to work in fashion (from what I gather reading her profile) and that means shooting with fashion shooters who, by and large, will not see it as a collaboration between two creative people.  You can't swing a dead cat in NYC without hitting a girl who will mutilate small animals to be photographed by anyone with more than a modicum of skill.  The signed agency girls are selective, but even they are plentiful if you have your act together.

The best photographers in the city will not treat her any better, but they will deliver better results, which, in the end, is all that really matters.  Yes, some are great guys and some are jerks, but the jerks are just as busy (if not busier).  It's all about what you produce.

Just a little clarification!
When I do TF I am normally working with photographers who are fashion ORIENTED. Not actually working in the agency industry.
If I was working with an agency represented photographer, that'd be a completely different story.
I am not under agency rep (yet) which is why I don't work with agency rep photags because then its a play of payment. Either I pay him for great shots in my port, or he(or the designer) pays me where I absolutely have no control or access to the photos, which is absolutely fair bc thats the job.

So the TF photags I normally work with are port building too who shoot in the high-end, agency approved style that we are both working towards for.

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Just a little clarification!
When I do TF I am normally working with photographers who are fashion ORIENTED. Not actually working in the agency industry.
If I was working with an agency represented photographer, that'd be a completely different story.
I am not under agency rep (yet) which is why I don't work with agency rep photags because then its a play of payment. Either I pay him for great shots in my port, or he(or the designer) pays me where I absolutely have no control or access to the photos, which is absolutely fair bc thats the job.

So the TF photags I normally work with are port building too who shoot in the high-end, agency approved style that we are both working towards for.

And that's what you should be doing.  I think you could do a bit better in selecting them and, you might find that some of the guys you think you would have to pay, you wouldn't as long as you were nice and fun to be around.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

And that's what you should be doing.  I think you could do a bit better in selecting them and, you might find that some of the guys you think you would have to pay, you wouldn't as long as you were nice and fun to be around.

I guess thats just my problem then
Thing is, I meet well rounded TF oriented photags, and they genuinely look and sound like they are willing to compromise.
Then I feel like I get taken advantage of when whats been said isn't done. I don't know how to confront it.

Nicole Packs  wrote:

I guess thats just my problem then
Thing is, I meet well rounded TF oriented photags, and they genuinely look and sound like they are willing to compromise.
Then I feel like I get taken advantage of when whats been said isn't done. I don't know how to confront it.

If your reason for shooting is portfolio development then don't work with anyone who's worst portfolio image is anything you would not be happy to put in your portfolio. And then clearly and politely communicate your needs and expectations from the beginning.

NewBoldPhoto wrote:
If your reason for shooting is portfolio development then don't work with anyone who's worst portfolio image is anything you would not be happy to put in your portfolio. And then clearly and politely communicate your needs and expectations from the beginning.

No no, I think I didn't make myself clear with my original post because some of you are posting as if I'm picking a photographer without knowing what I'm getting myself into.
When I pick a photag I'm picking them bc I like the way they shoot and I like the style of their photos.
What I'm saying is that regardless of how well and amazing they took the shot of me, there is still a possibility that I have posed badly in that photo.
And its not the photographer's fault by any means! Its just a bad angle, bad timing, and I didn't pick the best pose.
What frustrates me is that a photag will pick a final photo that I feel did not have me posing at my best angle in comparison to another photo  that I may have posed better in.  I would like to be entitled to pick photos that I most confident in as a llama, not how well the photag took the picture because the majority of them are great captures anyway!


Am I clearer on this now?

Nicole Packs  wrote:
Can someone tell me why photographers are so reluctant to let the model choose what photos she/he wants in their port?

In trade shoots, my agreement with the model, sometimes written sometimes not but always the agreement, is that we each have veto power over what shots can be published. She exercises her veto power by saying, "Not this." I exercise mine by not letting the shots out that I don't like.

So the answer to the quoted question is, "Because I don't want what I see as crap out there with my name on it." (And perhaps you think, well, that's my entire portfolio. I can't help that. I'm talking how I feel.)

If a model approached me with your concerns, I'd be amenable, on a trade shoot, to giving her batch-reduced smaller, lesser-res files to look at, and she could give her preferences about which ones she likes, and I could. I'd suggest communicating your concerns as you've done here (but perhaps just a tad bit shorter).

Edge of the Moon wrote:
Next time you discuss a shoot with a photographer ask them if you will get to see all the pictures and pick which ones you like for your portfolio.  I see this as reasonable for a TF* shoot. You get images you like and the photographer gets images they like.

Right, which is what I do.
But what do I do when a photographer becomes sensitive with his work doesn't allow me to pick my images anymore?

Nicole Packs  wrote:

Right, which is what I do.
But what do I do when a photographer becomes sensitive with his work doesn't allow me to pick my images anymore?

Sneeze into their lens.
They went back on their word then. n/g

Nicole Packs  wrote:

No no, I think I didn't make myself clear with my original post because some of you are posting as if I'm picking a photographer without knowing what I'm getting myself into.
When I pick a photag I'm picking them bc I like the way they shoot and I like the style of their photos.
What I'm saying is that regardless of how well and amazing they took the shot of me, there is still a possibility that I have posed badly in that photo.
And its not the photographer's fault by any means! Its just a bad angle, bad timing, and I didn't pick the best pose.
What frustrates me is that a photag will pick a final photo that I feel did not have me posing at my best angle in comparison to another photo  that I may have posed better in.  I would like to be entitled to pick photos that I most confident in as a model, not how well the photag took the picture because the majority of them are great captures anyway!


Am I clearer on this now?

I don't think you get what we are trying to say.
You need to communicate your needs to the photographer up front and only work with those that are showing work that you need.
The reason a photographer isn't letting you use certain images is because they are bad images. A bad image drags your port down no matter how great your pose is.

ontherocks wrote:
we let models choose. in fact i sent off 500 proofs today via dropbox to saturday's model.

we also shoot live into a TV so the model can provide feedback during the shoot.

if being able to choose is a showstopper for you then mention it early in the negotiation (or maybe even in your profile).

And you do this on a TF shoot?  I don't even do that for paying clients...

ontherocks wrote:
we let models choose. in fact i sent off 500 proofs today via dropbox to saturday's model.

if being able to choose is a showstopper for you then mention it early in the negotiation (or maybe even in your profile).

^This is exactly what I do.
I just cull out very blurry shots or obviously awkward moments or pictures of my foot.
Model gets everything else, even bad poses, so she can see what she is doing and improve herself.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
And you do this on a TF shoot?  I don't even do that for paying clients...

Lillian Faith wrote:
OP:

I completely see your point of view, and I agree. I would want pictures that are best for my port, even though they may not be the photogs favorite images.

I think we all agree with that.  But if you're on the same page with the right photographer, the four to eight final selects for each look should be the same.  Within those you might prefer one over another, which is perfectly reasonable.

ontherocks wrote:
correct. i give our trade models all the shots. without a watermark. they can use the proofs on facebook if they like. and they can also let me know their favorites for retouching.

i don't see that there's any money to be made shooting models at my level (the latest thing is models become photographers so they can do trade shoots with the other models). i just do it for fun and practice. things we do with models carry over when we shoot weddings, seniors, etc. (the things that pay the bills).

Fair enough.

Edge of the Moon wrote:

Sneeze into their lens.
They went back on their word then. n/g

Hahaaaa true, but they have my model release that I had to sign in order to shoot :p
Its a trap this whole time.