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Model
Autumn Keopualani White
Posts: 38
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


OBVIOUSLY I need to reword this question.

1) How do I guarantee my safety while doing nude shoots in private places without an escort?

2) Can I just put up some nude photos of myself so that the photographer can see my body so I don't have to let them take their own pictures of me that they could keep without my permission?


Once again, can i please have some honest answers. Please keep your sarcasm and insults to yourself.
Apr 19 13 02:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,608
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Report what? He simply offered something you weren't interested in. Based on your story.

Maybe he wanted to make sure your nipples weren't yellow and flower shaped.
Apr 19 13 02:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 17,919
Orlando, Florida, US


He hired you for a paid shoot then turn it around into a test shoot when you arrived?
Apr 19 13 02:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
The Original Sin
Posts: 13,894
Louisville, Kentucky, US


It's called a bait and switch.  Just say no, thank you, and walk away.
Apr 19 13 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
Is there a report option or some way we can warn other llamas after a bad experience with a photographer they met on MM?

I had met up with one to do a nude shoot recently that could have ended up a lot worse if i didn't trust mine and my escorts gut feeling.

We arrived at the apartment of the photographer. He comes out to shake our hands and looks INCREDIBLY NERVOUS.  Now don't you think a professional wouldn't be nervous? I was there to be paid, so he isn't the one being critiqued, I am. After we got inside, he goes on to mention that he needs me to do a  "test shoot" which is basically a BS term for FREE PHOTOS. Basically wanted me to drive out with him (oh and of course his car was so full of equipment, my escort could not come with us) and let him take free photos of me to "see if he wants to shot me" (completely naked, and in a desert spot in vegas)

It was at this point, we made it clear to him that if he wants to photograph me naked, he is going to have to pay. It is simply insulting to insist that a llama expose herself to you without any compensation. Especially for me, for in my profile photos, you can tell the size of my breasts very easily, and you can see that they don't sag, so there isn't any reason to do a "test shot"

I know there are llamas out there hungry for work. I don't want some girl who doesn't know any better to be in this situation but not know that she should walk out.

My question is, where do we report these freaks?

There is not special list of creeps that is published.
If another person asks for recommendation about him/her you can tell them your experiences working with them. If you have a current blog that works as well. You can post on your MM profile MM#111111 Not Recommended

Apr 19 13 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


A-M-P wrote:
He hired you for a paid shoot then turn it around into a test shoot when you arrived?

I'm confused as well...

Apr 19 13 02:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 451
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


You can basically put a "do not recommend" on your profile with the photographer and MM number on it. Unfortunate that he tried to get a free shoot out of you after agreeing to rates and a planned shoot. Other then that just another experience to learn from ...unfortunately a bad one. Good that you didn't waste any more of your time with that photographer.
Apr 19 13 02:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


For this particular situation, I would describe it as you having bad vibes about his intentions, and canceling. You can't report it because nothing creepy occurred. We could speculate that something 'creepy' may have happened, but it didn't.

As for it being insulting that a model 'expose' herself to a photographer for no pay, it's called testing (or TFP on MM) and it's very common. I often test with well known models, and it includes nudity. However, sometimes the models request that I do not credit them in order to avoid having their clients ask, "you worked with 'him' TFP, why won't you do it with me?".
Apr 19 13 02:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 939
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


There's a couple things you can do.

A. Use the "contact a mod" button to report him to the powers that be on MM.

B. Put a "I do not recommend MM# XXXX" on your profile.

However, I want to make note of a couple of things that you mentioned in your post:

First was that he was nervous and according to you a "professional" should not be nervous. I consider myself to be a professional (and I hope that those who've worked with me agree!) but I do have some social anxiety issues and often get nervous before a shoot with someone I've never worked with before, even if it doesn't show. Sometimes people are just like that. There are people here who will tell you that bringing an escort is a lot more unprofessional than being nervous.

Second, a "test shoot" is not necessarily shooting for free. Of course, if he didn't specify beforehand that you would have to drive off somewhere and test shoot nudes before the actual shoot that's a reason to be pissed, but might not necessarily indicate creepiness, just poor planning and communication on his part.
Apr 19 13 02:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,968
Chicago, Illinois, US


OP, you don't have any nudes on your profile.   This guy was a goof for agreeing too pay you for nudes before actually seeing you nude.   By the way in general if you are looking for payment for nudes have a few well done nudes so photographers can see exactly what your figure looks like.     Nude does not mean swim wear or lingerie.    I understand you're pissed because he wanted a 'freebie' but it doesn't sound like he did anything wrong or is some kind of threat.   Your need for a escort may also limit paid shoots but really consider getting those nudes.   You can place them in a password protected folder here.
Apr 19 13 02:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
He needs me to do a  "test shoot" which is basically a BS term for FREE PHOTOS.

Try telling that to all the model agencies who organise test shoots for their models on a daily basis.

Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation.

What if they offer?



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Apr 19 13 02:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Flex Photography
Posts: 5,083
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada


No lists for photographers models disagreed with or don't like. No lists for models who demand "assistants" or have stripper rates. If the person does not match what you are looking for, don't shoot with them and move on.
Apr 19 13 02:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Expression Unlimited
Posts: 1,123
San Diego, California, US


there is a site somewhere you can complain on but you have to pay to join ...
Apr 19 13 02:57 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,469
San Francisco, California, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation.

I have no comment on your situation, but I do have comment on this.  I routinely set up "go-sees" for larger projects.  Some are nude, some are not.  If the shoot is nude, and it is important enough for an audition, it is important enough for me to see the model nude before I book her.

I often book models, sight unseen, for smaller projects.  When the project matters, I will do it right.  Many girls look a lot different with their clothes off than with their clothes on.  Photoshop has the "liquify" tool so photos on MM are not reliable. 

It is not an insult to ask a girl to disrobe at an audition for a nude project.  It is insulting to suggest that it is wrong for a legitimate photographer to want to see you before he books you implying that to do so makes him a creep.

Apr 19 13 02:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,734
Santa Ana, California, US


Maybe when you showed up with your thug in tow, that's what made him nervous. Also maybe that's what prompted him to want to test the atmosphere before actually spending any money on you.
Apr 19 13 03:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 12,871
Houston, Texas, US


OP, it seems you are new. I'd suggest reading www.newmodels.com first.
Especially read parts about escorts, communication, checking references etc.
If I were to shoot you, it'd be a test shoot first before I'd put you in front of clients. That DOESN'T mean "free photos"...that means that you'd get valuable images in exchange for modeling which you could use in your portfolio. These images may very well allow you to book other paying gigs.
Spend some time around models and photographers who have been doing this a long time and you'll get a lot of good advice.
Apr 19 13 03:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


There is no outing on forums plus you can report set photographer to a moderator if he or she is on MM.  Next time if it smells fishy then dont bait it before its to late. Your gut feeling always has an upper hand use it or loose it.
Apr 19 13 03:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
robert b mitchell
Posts: 1,220
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


How about a deadbeat llamas list. Its only fair. tongue
Apr 19 13 03:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Stormee
Posts: 2,463
San Antonio, Texas, US


Apr 19 13 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 939
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


John Allan wrote:
Maybe when you showed up with your thug in tow, that's what made him nervous. Also maybe that's what prompted him to want to test the atmosphere before actually spending any money on you.

I'll preface this by saying that as a model I would never bring an escort to a shoot for a number of reasons, many of which can be found on the MM forums.

That said, if a model and photographer agree beforehand on the bringing of an escort I see no problem with it as it's their business. So, OP, did you agree on it beforehand?

Also, if he wanted to "test the atmosphere" that's fine, except the OP is suggesting that he didn't previously mention that to her. That's a big no-no, IMO.

I do, however, agree that there are many things wrong with the OP's post.

Apr 19 13 03:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 6,623
New York, New York, US


What happened to you sounds more like a miscommunication somewhere down the line. If I drink too much coffee I appear nervous too!l

Anyway, testing isn't free, if he is really good it cost him equipment education and lots of practice. Nothing is really free if you value someone's time and expertise.
Apr 19 13 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Sounds like he was pulling the old bait and switch, but I also suspect there might be more information to the story.  If he wasn't trying to do something illegal or immoral, I'd just say make a note to yourself not to work with him and move on.  If you publicly trash him and can't prove he did anything wrong, he could sue you.
Apr 19 13 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 451
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I think for those talking about test shoots and how they are all fine...I agree, however keep in mind those shoots are known to the model as being test shoots as well I gather. If I were told to go to a job that was going to pay me, and I got there to shoot and the client said to me "oh, I want you to shoot this for free so I can decide if I like your work first", after first telling me it was a paid gig. I would be gone, simple as that. I would also be pissed about it. Regardless of how many others shoot the same thing for free on other occasions.  That was not what was agreed to for that shoot, I didn't agree to a test I agreed to a paid job in that instance. Completely unprofessional for anything different, I find it surprising that some are saying there is no problem with what he did or that it wasn't wrong. yes it was. (mind you I am not saying it makes him a freak or that he was going to do anything else, just unprofessional action and wasting someone's time is wrong, I don't know who would think that its right.)
Apr 19 13 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


I'd like to add if you have written proof that he offered you pay and pulled the bait and switch, send him a bill.  You'll probably never get anything, but it might feel nice and could add to your case if you decide to publicly expose him.  Just know publicly exposing someone doesn't always work out well.
Apr 19 13 03:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
wendy haigh
Posts: 517
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


robert b mitchell wrote:
How about a deadbeat models list. Its only fair. tongue

Agreed!!!!!!

Apr 19 13 03:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jhono Bashian
Posts: 2,427
Cleveland, Ohio, US


The Original Sin  wrote:
It's called a bait and switch.  Just say no, thank you, and walk away.

that's the best advise and let all your model friends know about this guy's m.o.

Apr 19 13 03:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,431
Salinas, California, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
Is there a report option or some way we can warn other models after a bad experience with a photographer they met on MM?

I had met up with one to do a nude shoot recently that could have ended up a lot worse if i didn't trust mine and my escorts gut feeling.

We arrived at the apartment of the photographer. He comes out to shake our hands and looks INCREDIBLY NERVOUS.  Now don't you think a professional wouldn't be nervous? I was there to be paid, so he isn't the one being critiqued, I am. After we got inside, he goes on to mention that he needs me to do a  "test shoot" which is basically a BS term for FREE PHOTOS. Basically wanted me to drive out with him (oh and of course his car was so full of equipment, my escort could not come with us) and let him take free photos of me to "see if he wants to shot me" (completely naked, and in a desert spot in vegas)

It was at this point, we made it clear to him that if he wants to photograph me naked, he is going to have to pay. It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation. Especially for me, for in my profile photos, you can tell the size of my breasts very easily, and you can see that they don't sag, so there isn't any reason to do a "test shot"

I know there are models out there hungry for work. I don't want some girl who doesn't know any better to be in this situation but not know that she should walk out.

My question is, where do we report these freaks?

You call him "creepy" and a "freak" for that!!!   yikes

Although it could be a "bait and switch" situation, we don't know his side of the story.  ALSO did you know that there are photographers and models on this Modelmayhem website that DO shoot nudes on a TFP basis?  I just wondered if you knew that, because while it is certainly your choice as to getting paid to "show" your naked body, but you can't force all people to work the way you do.  Setting up photo shoots should be mutual, but it isn't always that way.

Your comments make it seem like you are rather judgemental of others here who might choose to work differently that you.  Who you'd put on a "creepy photographers list" would be different from what the next model might.  Should photographers create a "drama queen models" list?  A "list" is personal.

Maybe you made him nervous?  "Test Shoot" is not automatically "BS for Free photos" either!  I have to say that I am not in complete disagreement with all that you say, but your post is a perfect example of why we can't have a "blacklist" or a method of grading talented people here against the "wanna be's" as this website cannot judge which people are in the right of their accusations.  This website doesn't have a clear cut ability to verify the pro's vs those here with other intentions.  You have to figure out who are the "creepy" ones yourself.  Hope you understand what I am saying.   Best wishes to you!

Apr 19 13 03:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


robert b mitchell wrote:
How about a deadbeat models list. Its only fair. tongue

That list might crash the server with too much data on one page.

Apr 19 13 03:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7,630
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
Now don't you think a professional wouldn't be nervous?

Professionalism and confidence are not the same thing.

It was at this point, we made it clear to him that if he wants to photograph me naked, he is going to have to pay.

Spoken like a stripper rate. Nice.

It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation.

I'm guessing you don't believe in paying photographers, cause you're getting naked.

That isn't really modeling.

Apr 19 13 03:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,337
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation. Especially for me, for in my profile photos, you can tell the size of my breasts very easily, and you can see that they don't sag, so there isn't any reason to do a "test shot"

You have to be joking.....I can liquify with the best of them....nobody has saggy breasts any more.
And its an insult for you to be seen naked without being offered money first? Another word comes to mind...

Apr 19 13 03:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,496
Portland, Oregon, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
Is there a report option or some way we can warn other models after a bad experience with a photographer they met on MM?

I had met up with one to do a nude shoot recently that could have ended up a lot worse if i didn't trust mine and my llama herders gut feeling.

We arrived at the apartment of the photographer. He comes out to shake our hands and looks INCREDIBLY NERVOUS.  Now don't you think a professional wouldn't be nervous? I was there to be paid, so he isn't the one being critiqued, I am. After we got inside, he goes on to mention that he needs me to do a  "test shoot" which is basically a BS term for FREE PHOTOS. Basically wanted me to drive out with him (oh and of course his car was so full of equipment, my llama herder could not come with us) and let him take free photos of me to "see if he wants to shot me" (completely naked, and in a desert spot in vegas)

It was at this point, we made it clear to him that if he wants to photograph me naked, he is going to have to pay. It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation. Especially for me, for in my profile photos, you can tell the size of my breasts very easily, and you can see that they don't sag, so there isn't any reason to do a "test shot"

I know there are models out there hungry for work. I don't want some girl who doesn't know any better to be in this situation but not know that she should walk out.

My question is, where do we report these freaks?

Thank you for illustrating why it is a good thing this site does not have a feedback system.

Apr 19 13 03:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It was at this point, we made it clear to him that if he wants to photograph me naked, he is going to have to pay. It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation. Especially for me, for in my profile photos, you can tell the size of my breasts very easily, and you can see that they don't sag, so there isn't any reason to do a "test shot"

While it sounds like he was trying to pull a bait-and-switch, test-shooting some nudes might not have been about determining your breast size, but about determining your modeling skills.

That shoot sounds like communications disaster.

Apr 19 13 03:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1,779
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


I'm curious, you say he was very nervous when you arrived with your escort.

Did you tell him you were bringing an escort when you arranged the shoot?

Perhaps having an unexpected person without references in his apartment made him nervous. Its possible he was concerned about his safety and the security of his expensive equipment. If that's the case then him asking to do a test shoot outside of his apartment without the escort makes more sense.

Its also entirely possible he tried the bait and switch tactic.

There is just not enough information in the OP to decide either way. Certainly nowhere near enough information to jump to the conclusion he was a creep with ulterior motives.

But if you weren't comfortable then you did the right thing by not proceeding with the shoot.
Apr 19 13 03:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,210
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Mnemosyne Photography wrote:

Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
Now don't you think a professional wouldn't be nervous?

Professionalism and confidence are not the same thing.


Spoken like a stripper rate. Nice.


I'm guessing you don't believe in paying photographers, cause you're getting naked.

That isn't really modeling.

QFT

Trade isn't free and in most professional testing it's the photographer that gets paid.  He may have been a creep and you avoided a potentially bad situation.  I can say with stripper rates, escorts, and trade=free the photograher avoided one for sure; professionalism comes from both sides...

Apr 19 13 03:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,680
Downers Grove, Illinois, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation.

I guess I have insulted every single nude model in my portfolio, and many more that aren't in it.

None of them have been paid. And they accepted that willingly for their own individual reasons.

Apr 19 13 03:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,431
Salinas, California, US


Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
There's a couple things you can do.

A. Use the "contact a mod" button to report him to the powers that be on MM.

B. Put a "I do not recommend MM# XXXX" on your profile.

However, I want to make note of a couple of things that you mentioned in your post:

First was that he was nervous and according to you a "professional" should not be nervous. I consider myself to be a professional (and I hope that those who've worked with me agree!) but I do have some social anxiety issues and often get nervous before a shoot with someone I've never worked with before, even if it doesn't show. Sometimes people are just like that. There are people here who will tell you that bringing an escort is a lot more unprofessional than being nervous.

Second, a "test shoot" is not necessarily shooting for free. Of course, if he didn't specify beforehand that you would have to drive off somewhere and test shoot nudes before the actual shoot that's a reason to be pissed, but might not necessarily indicate creepiness, just poor planning and communication on his part.

Thank you!  Yours is a response filled with common sense.  Not everyone is the same.  I get nervous sometimes in social situations ... hard to believe since I can play it off so well, but I just hope the people didn't notice me sweating.   wink

Apr 19 13 03:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation.

By definition, TF isn't without compensation.

Apr 19 13 04:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,431
Salinas, California, US


Kelly Anne-Marie wrote:
I wouldn't meet at his house (meet at Star bucks or another open area) nor bring an escort nor agree to any nude pre-shoot anywhere. I have never had to report a photographer after a meeting.

Good idea!!!  One of the reasons I've reduced the number of models flaking on me to almost none is because in many cases I will meet with models in advance of shooting.  I've ran casting calls where I meet the potential models at a coffee place and schedule them to come at various times as so not to all be there at once.  There have been many times when "want to be" models never showed up ... and I was happy to continue conversations planning shoots with the ones who did show.  Or I can just browse Modelmayhem to see if they posted.  lol

Additional;  These decisions we make are our choices.  Communication is important to make sure that these choices are mutual.

Apr 19 13 04:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1,779
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It was at this point, we made it clear to him that if he wants to photograph me naked, he is going to have to pay. It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation

Did you not make it clear when you arranged the shoot?

Did you tell the photographer you would be bringing an escort?

Perhaps your escort joining the negotiations is what made him nervous.

Apr 19 13 04:03 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
-JAY-
Posts: 6,199
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
Basically wanted me to drive out with him (oh and of course his car was so full of equipment, my llama herder could not come with us) and let him take free photos of me to "see if he wants to shot me" (completely naked, and in a desert spot in vegas)

I shoot test shoots, nude in the vegas desert all the time. Oh yeah, and I drive a 2 seat coupe, so no llama herders either.


Autumn Keopualani White wrote:
It was at this point, we made it clear to him that if he wants to photograph me naked, he is going to have to pay. It is simply insulting to insist that a model expose herself to you without any compensation.

Insulting? really? So I have insulted hundreds of models!?! #clutchthepearls #sayitisntso



Maybe I should report myself!?!?!

Apr 19 13 04:06 pm  Link  Quote 
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