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Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,775
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Sucks for the photographer who is out that money spent, maybe they will learn to backup their files.

As for the model, why would she care; Her services were paid for.
May 15 13 10:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick Dupuis Photography
Posts: 6,822
Truro, Nova Scotia, Canada


wait a second.... the files are too big for anything except facebook? They are too big to burn to a CD but not too big to upload to facebook?  am I the only one who sees a problem with this?
May 15 13 10:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 54,145
Buena Park, California, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Okay everyone, models and photographers, I want to know your opinion on a certain situation that has happened to me recently.

A paid (body paint) photo shoot is scheduled, model shows up on time, shoot starts on time, everything goes greatly, and everyone is happy.

Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

Photographer loves the model SO much that he'd just love to shoot with her again while not having to pay next time.  He asks and asks again for her availability to do this although he's been turned down due to paid shoots being prioritized.

A week goes by and model asks when photos will be ready. Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files. He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

Now without knowing what model chose to do, what is your reaction? What do you do, model? Photographer, who's fault is it and what is expected of them? And as a photographer, what are your exact words to the model? I'm just dying to know other opinions on this and whether I was wrong in my reaction.

Thanks in advance!

1. Image distribution via Facebook because images are too large for other methods is bullshit.  They are clowning with you and I'd kick them to the curb.

2. Yes, reshoots are just like regular shoots.  Except this time you know pretty much everything and things might go smoother than before as everyone will be familiar with each other.  I'd charge the same rate or maybe give discount if they were fun to work with.

May 15 13 10:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


DougBPhoto wrote:
4) Photographer asking for free shoot and being turned down, then computer magically fails is quite coincidental, but it should not be very tough to see if photos from that shoot magically appear online.

My first impression was "OK, accidents happen" until I saw this. Seems to me that the photographer is trying to get that second free shoot.

But, as others have said, I would be curious to know the details of the agreement and whether images were a "gesture" or part of the determination of the model's pay rate.

May 15 13 10:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Okay everyone, models and photographers, I want to know your opinion on a certain situation that has happened to me recently.

A paid (body paint) photo shoot is scheduled, model shows up on time, shoot starts on time, everything goes greatly, and everyone is happy.

Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

Photographer loves the model SO much that he'd just love to shoot with her again while not having to pay next time.  He asks and asks again for her availability to do this although he's been turned down due to paid shoots being prioritized.

A week goes by and model asks when photos will be ready. Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files. He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

Now without knowing what model chose to do, what is your reaction? What do you do, model? Photographer, who's fault is it and what is expected of them? And as a photographer, what are your exact words to the model? I'm just dying to know other opinions on this and whether I was wrong in my reaction.

Thanks in advance!

OP.
Fault is with the photographer on two accounts.
1. Not backing up his data. Most people never learn until it happens to them.
2. Committing himself to delivering images he's already paid for.

As a model, I wouldn't TF with him at all. If he's silly enough to pay and give pictures then there is no real value in TF unless he's shooting what you want.

Also as a model, reshoot with him at the same rate previously, or offer hima  discount in the hope he will be a regular paying client. Chances are if he's just doing the re-shoot to honour his commitment to provide you images (!!!), he may pass on that.

As a photographer, I would have no choice but to pay to re-shoot. Paid shoots normally include a client. However, I try not to wipe my cards until after I have a second copy.

Also, I would not commit myself to paying a model AND providing images, in my eyes I believe it devalues the models I TF with, so that's the last thing I want.

May 15 13 10:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


Schlake wrote:

Facebook actually works astoundingly well for sending images through the messaging system.  Their software butchers the colors and compression if you upload it to a gallery, but big images pass untouched through facebook messages.  And facebook has tremendous storage and bandwidth and is sadly ubiquitous, so is an easy and acceptable way to move images around one at a time.

Yes, you're right! It comes in handy when sharing ideas in a chat session or discussing retouching with my fellow photographers.

I wouldn't use it for lots of files because I'm an impatient git and would find it faster to ZIP, upload and paste a link.

May 15 13 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


Rick Dupuis Photography wrote:
wait a second.... the files are too big for anything except facebook? They are too big to burn to a CD but not too big to upload to facebook?  am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

It's not really a problem.

There's a lack of information in the OP so one would assume that if it's larger than 640MB then he could be transferring multiple files via ZIP and not a single file.

May 15 13 10:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Catwalk Studios
Posts: 84
Ponca City, Oklahoma, US


I have had it happen too . Although when it did happen I contacted the model immediately . He did not bring that up until the model called . Sounds like BS to me .
May 15 13 11:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 9,461
Seattle, Washington, US


C2C Images wrote:
The photographer insistence on using FB necause the image files are too big makes him either a liar or an idiot!   I am therefore doubting the loss of images as well.

I agree to that. However, I must say he is both a liar and an idiot. Not either.

May 15 13 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,422
London, England, United Kingdom


Darren Brade wrote:
As a model, I wouldn't TF with him at all. If he's silly enough to pay and give pictures then there is no real value in TF unless he's shooting what you want.

Also, I would not commit myself to paying a model AND providing images, in my eyes I believe it devalues the models I TF with, so that's the last thing I want.

I disagree, if I work with a photographer (paid), it goes well and he, out of the goodness of his heart, sends me useful pictures in a timely, organised fashion, then i'm more likely to consider TFP (or even pay) with him in the future, since I already know he is talented, reliable, good to work with, and (hopefully still) wants to work with me. This would usually put them to the top of the list when I am looking for portfolio work.

If a model can negotiate a better deal than me i don't think this devalues me at all, i can accept she may be a better businessperson or *shock horror* a better or more in demand model than me. Models are going to find it tough if they can't accept that they may not always be the super best, top of the pile girl who earns the most at all times. I worry about my pay, i don't worry about what other girls get.

May 15 13 11:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,428
Salem, Oregon, US


when i pay a model i don't plan to give them any images beyond the ones i process for myself. they get paid in images or get paid in money. but usually not both unless i really like them or think that having my images in their portfolio would be of great value.

it's not hard to imagine a scenario where images got lost, especially if someone wasn't diligent about backups. assuming that wasn't just an excuse.
May 15 13 11:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,025
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I would not do a TF shoot with a photographer that did not provide the agreed upon photos from a previous shoot (regardless if it was paid or not). I would absolutely agree to shoot again though if the photographer was willing to pay the same rate as the original shoot.
May 15 13 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,025
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


dp
May 15 13 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


JadeDRed wrote:

I disagree, if I work with a photographer (paid), it goes well and he, out of the goodness of his heart, sends me useful pictures in a timely, organised fashion, then i'm more likely to consider TFP (or even pay) with him in the future, since I already know he is talented, reliable, good to work with, and (hopefully still) wants to work with me. This would usually put them to the top of the list when I am looking for portfolio work.

If a model can negotiate a better deal than me i don't think this devalues me at all, i can accept she may be a better businessperson or *shock horror* a better or more in demand model than me. Models are going to find it tough if they can't accept that they may not always be the super best, top of the pile girl who earns the most at all times. I worry about my pay, i don't worry about what other girls get.

Very true, and I respect that, but I don't think that is what is expected here. It sounds like he's committed to providing images which is different to providing the images as a gift (for want of a better word).

May 15 13 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Daemon
Posts: 344
West Hazleton, Pennsylvania, US


It happens, I had card problems a few years back and lost a third of a shoot, but it was an important part of the shoot. I wouldn't automatically assume anything from that alone.

However, anyone who claims that a photo file is "too large" for any transfer method other than Facebook, is either lying or incompetent, so that puts the entire story into question.
May 15 13 12:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Blue Box Photography
Posts: 1,166
Montville, New Jersey, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
A paid (body paint) photo shoot is scheduled, model shows up on time, shoot starts on time, everything goes greatly, and everyone is happy.

It's still unclear to me who was paid, although I'm assuming it was the model. If the model was paid and promised images from the shoot, then it's a double-win for her. If the photos were somehow lost (legitimately or not), she still got paid cash money which is a pretty good deal.

As others have said, if the model wants to shoot the same content again for the same rate, that seems fair to me since the lost images were not her fault. If the model wants to get beyond her obvious suspicion of the photographer and shoot a different concept on a TF basis, that is her prerogative, but should necessarily not be expected by the photographer.

OP - it's time to tell us what you did...

May 15 13 12:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,428
Salem, Oregon, US


the way i read that the photographer doesn't want to release hi-rez files.

for the OP next time advise the photographer about dropbox and see what he says.

Strength Studios wrote:
However, anyone who claims that a photo file is "too large" for any transfer method other than Facebook, is either lying or incompetent, so that puts the entire story into question.

May 15 13 12:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,422
London, England, United Kingdom


Darren Brade wrote:
Very true, and I respect that, but I don't think that is what is expected here. It sounds like he's committed to providing images which is different to providing the images as a gift (for want of a better word).

The point still stands, if a photographer provides me with images then i get a better grasp of the quality and his reliability so it can definitely push them up my go to list for portfolio images.

The minimising of risk would be worth the loss of cash. The maintaining of a good working relationship would make it worth offering better terms to the photographer.

May 15 13 02:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,422
London, England, United Kingdom


Blue Box Photography wrote:
It's still unclear to me who was paid, although I'm assuming it was the model. If the model was paid and promised images from the shoot, then it's a double-win for her. If the photos were somehow lost (legitimately or not), she still got paid cash money which is a pretty good deal.

We can't really say that, for all we know she got a token amount of money that didn't even cover her expenses and she was only there for the images. It is impossible to know if it is a good deal without knowing more and to be honest, not getting paid what you agreed (if that is the case here) is never usually a good deal, even if it was images that were lost.

That's like saying someone got a good deal because someone only paid a quarter of the fee because they got paid, without knowing the original fee how can we know if it was a good deal or not, and they still got screwed regardless.

The model might have asked for a high money rate in case of a situation like this, or she might have asked for a negligible one just as a bit of a net to cover her costs.

May 15 13 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


Rick Dupuis Photography wrote:
wait a second.... the files are too big for anything except facebook? They are too big to burn to a CD but not too big to upload to facebook?  am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

If you had read the thread, you'd see you're far from being the only one.

May 15 13 02:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Sampson
Posts: 59
Yorktown, Virginia, US


If you are being paid you in no way shape or form are entitled to images. NOW if images and pay were agreed upon that is a different ordeal.

I'd say this... SHOOOOT happens sometimes. I would have said what at the whole facebook thing though to transfer images. You should have realized something was off right then and there..not dropbox or someother way..but facebook...

I'm sorry... it always sucks when stuff like this happens.
May 15 13 02:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,025
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Christopher Sampson wrote:
If you are being paid you in no way shape or form are entitled to images. NOW if images and pay were agreed upon that is a different ordeal.

The op made it pretty clear that photos were part of the agreement.

Me_LanieLove wrote:
Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

May 15 13 02:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Me_LanieLove
Posts: 5
Irvine, California, US


JessieLeigh wrote:

Christopher Sampson wrote:
If you are being paid you in no way shape or form are entitled to images. NOW if images and pay were agreed upon that is a different ordeal.

The op made it pretty clear that photos were part of the agreement.


Thank you! Everyone thanks for your responses, but I don't think half of you understood the point of the post. I'm not asking for advice of what to do or trying to figure out how to "move on" from this. Believe me, I've moved on. I don't dwell on things and yes, "shit happens". The shoot was for very low pay and was shot for both of our portfolio building reasons. For you guys that have done body painting, it's a LONG process and to redo that again at any rate for me is redundant. He lost the images and wants to re-shoot. I said no because of his credibility and lack of professionalism, and my life is going on. I really just wanted to know peoples' opinions and what THEY would do in the situation, not what I should do. His words to me were "let's re-shoot, it's not my fault the computer crashed". It's weird to me so I wanted to know what most photographers think about this situation. So to RE-CLEAR it up: YES THE MODEL WAS PROMISED PICTURES. Thanks again for responding smile

May 15 13 04:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Me_LanieLove
Posts: 5
Irvine, California, US


JadeDRed wrote:

We can't really say that, for all we know she got a token amount of money that didn't even cover her expenses and she was only there for the images. It is impossible to know if it is a good deal without knowing more and to be honest, not getting paid what you agreed (if that is the case here) is never usually a good deal, even if it was images that were lost.

That's like saying someone got a good deal because someone only paid a quarter of the fee because they got paid, without knowing the original fee how can we know if it was a good deal or not, and they still got screwed regardless.

The model might have asked for a high money rate in case of a situation like this, or she might have asked for a negligible one just as a bit of a net to cover her costs.

Exactly. The money (which was a very low amount) in this particular case was the added plus, I really just wanted the pictures. In a photographers eyes, the photos are a plus and the models just want the money. It may not be the case to other models, but I actually care about how the pictures turned out and I always want copies of my work.

May 15 13 04:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FredSugar
Posts: 217
Dallas, Texas, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Okay everyone, models and photographers, I want to know your opinion on a certain situation that has happened to me recently.

A paid (body paint) photo shoot is scheduled, model shows up on time, shoot starts on time, everything goes greatly, and everyone is happy.

Model is promised copies of photos within the next week. Not on a cd, not via email, but via message on Facebook because the files are "too big" for any other method. This is agreed upon and both part ways.

Photographer loves the model SO much that he'd just love to shoot with her again while not having to pay next time.  He asks and asks again for her availability to do this although he's been turned down due to paid shoots being prioritized.

A week goes by and model asks when photos will be ready. Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files. He then asks if she would be able to re-shoot all of the content.

Now without knowing what model chose to do, what is your reaction? What do you do, model? Photographer, who's fault is it and what is expected of them? And as a photographer, what are your exact words to the model? I'm just dying to know other opinions on this and whether I was wrong in my reaction.

Thanks in advance!

It definitely does happen.   Even though, if I have product that has to be delivered, I don't delete the original card until after my obligations are fulfilled.   So basically keeping the work in two places at all times.   

Now if it was a bad card, then, just screwed, but one would hope he noticed that during the shoot so not all shots would be lost.

As for the facebook delivery only?   Biggest bs I've ever heard.  Dropbox, google drive, dozens of other ways to deliver product.

May 15 13 04:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
zaxpix
Posts: 1,988
New Brunswick, New Jersey, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
I don't think half of you understood the point of the post. I'm not asking for advice of what to do or trying to figure out how to "move on" from this. Believe me, I've moved on.

Umm...no. Although your post was written in the third person, everyone understood that it was you and since your final (or the fact that you'd even made a final decision) decision was not known, the answers came in the form of advice. Some were supportive of your now known final decision
Although the opinions given may sound, to you, like you are being advised as to what to do, they are in all cases, I'll assume, what the poster would have done or expected to be done. Same difference. Needing to say "If it were me I'd"... was not necessary.
You essentially got what you asked for.

May 15 13 05:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


Me_LanieLove wrote:
Photographer then proceeds to tell her that his computer crashed and that he didn't back up the files.

That's the photographer's way of saying "Grandma died".

Any photographer worth half their salt backs up their files one way or another.

Or perhaps they botched the shoot somehow and are blaming the computer.

May 15 13 06:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Will Snizek Photography
Posts: 1,387
Beckley, West Virginia, US


Rick Dupuis Photography wrote:
wait a second.... the files are too big for anything except facebook? They are too big to burn to a CD but not too big to upload to facebook?  am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

I noticed that too.  You have to reduce the size of images to send them through Facebook messenger. 

As far as the whole situation, if the model was paid, it sounds like she's the only one who benefited from the shoot.  The photographer lost everything and wasn't paid.  I've never lost files off the camera, because I save images to multiple computers, but I could see something like this happening to someone who saves to one computer and deletes the files off the camera as they are uploading.  Who knows?  Maybe it did happen or maybe the photos just didn't turn out well.

May 15 13 06:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Flex Photography
Posts: 5,208
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada


Paul Ferris  wrote:
Yeah the files too big for CD but not too big for Facebook seems a bit fishy as well.

If they were too big for a CD, why wouldn't he use a DVD? (Waaay more capacity)

May 15 13 07:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Barry Kidd Photography
Posts: 2,445
Red Lion, Pennsylvania, US


I lost files because of a computer crash once.  Lost three sets because my dumb ass didn't back up as soon as there were downloaded to the computer.

I'd like to say that I have been careful ever since but that isn't always the case.  I have however been lucky and haven't lost anything when I don't back up right away.
May 15 13 09:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


Me_LanieLove wrote:

Thank you! Everyone thanks for your responses, but I don't think half of you understood the point of the post. I'm not asking for advice of what to do or trying to figure out how to "move on" from this. Believe me, I've moved on. I don't dwell on things and yes, "shit happens". The shoot was for very low pay and was shot for both of our portfolio building reasons. For you guys that have done body painting, it's a LONG process and to redo that again at any rate for me is redundant. He lost the images and wants to re-shoot. I said no because of his credibility and lack of professionalism, and my life is going on. I really just wanted to know peoples' opinions and what THEY would do in the situation, not what I should do. His words to me were "let's re-shoot, it's not my fault the computer crashed". It's weird to me so I wanted to know what most photographers think about this situation. So to RE-CLEAR it up: YES THE MODEL WAS PROMISED PICTURES. Thanks again for responding smile

This is Model Mayhem and not Mindreader Mayhem, so if your OP is misunderstood,it may have been badly written.

May 16 13 01:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,842
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Your photographer is either incompetent or a liar or both.

Quite apart from the reservations expressed repeatedly by others about the upload via facebook issue, there is the question of the computer crash.

Computers crash all the time.  It is not much different from a car stalling in traffic - hit the on switch and pick up where you left off, generally without any real damage.

On the other hand, hard drives occasionally get corrupted and the computer can no longer see them. However, that rarely means they are dead and there is plenty of software to either repair the corrupted directory (if it just a corruption problem) or to retrieve the files if it is a mechanical problem (if the hard drive is in its death throes - hard drives rarely suddenly drop dead, it is usually a slow process with a fair bit of warning).

If he does not know about retrieval software, let him know that it exists, is not hard to use, and that you expect your images within the week.

PS Retrieval software also works on camera cards.
May 16 13 07:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,775
London, England, United Kingdom


natural beauties of qld wrote:
On the other hand, hard drives occasionally get corrupted and the computer can no longer see them. However, that rarely means they are dead and there is plenty of software to either repair the corrupted directory (if it just a corruption problem) or to retrieve the files if it is a mechanical problem (if the hard drive is in its death throes - hard drives rarely suddenly drop dead, it is usually a slow process with a fair bit of warning).

Completely disagree.

A hard drive can die unexpectedly and without warning. Laptops are at greater risk of crashes.

Also if the damage is physical, either to the head or platter, it can be very costly to recover. Don't assume because it can be recovered that it is cheap. Also don't assume people know the first thing about what is under the bonnet.

May 16 13 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The F-Stop
Posts: 1,491
New York, New York, US


Did you try getting in toutch with the body painter to see if they got thier shots?

Otherwise as someone else said....

you were paid.. forget about it.
May 16 13 10:29 am  Link  Quote 
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