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Photographer
Ario Triwibowo
Posts: 6
Jakarta, Jakarta, Indonesia


Hello. I would like to have a discussion here. I don't know whether this has been brought up or not.

I have seen a lot of models from where I came from, stating in MM that they can do TFCD and interested to do it to expand their portfolio and stuffs.

But when I approach them to discuss such project, they overturn their policy by saying paid assignments only.

I mean to these models, if you don't want TFCD, why don't you just say it in the beginning. Or if you have changed your mind, by using to accept TFCD in the past but no at the present, then at least change it in your profile too?

I just find it a bit inconsistent and annoying to some extent.


What do you think?
Aug 22 13 06:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Ario Triwibowo wrote:
Hello. I would like to have a discussion here. I don't know whether this has been brought up or not.

I have seen a lot of models from where I came from, stating in MM that they can do TFCD and interested to do it to expand their portfolio and stuffs.

But when I approach them to discuss such project, they overturn their policy by saying paid assignments only.

I mean to these models, if you don't want TFCD, why don't you just say it in the beginning. Or if you have changed your mind, by using to accept TFCD in the past but no at the present, then at least change it in your profile too?

I just find it a bit inconsistent and annoying to some extent.


What do you think?

Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

Aug 22 13 06:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MesmerEyes Photography
Posts: 3,011
Tyler, Texas, US


RKD Photographic wrote:

Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

This x1000.

Aug 22 13 06:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,235
New York, New York, US


Well if they don't need a port update, then they offer rates. Some don't care about their portfolios at all.
Aug 22 13 06:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Ifa Brand
Posts: 128
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


RKD Photographic wrote:

Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

+1

From a model perspective: for TFP I contact photographers myself with a full concept in mind. I contact photographers who's work I like and admire, who's work could benefit my portfolio or just because I think we'd create some really cool images together. It is up to the model to be clear on that in their profile text.

Aug 22 13 07:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Glenn Hall - Fine Art
Posts: 450
Townsville, Queensland, Australia


It's a vanity thing. Call yourself a model, make an account here on MM and then feed the ego and insist on payment after a few bites from unwitting photographers looking for TFP collaboration. Pretty much sums up most of the "models" in my town who are on MM and in addition to your problem, do nothing but check to see how many friends they have made and ignore any requests for quality work and brag how popular they are on Facebook.
Aug 22 13 07:31 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,889
Detroit, Michigan, US


I try to be very up front in my portfolio. I do not shoot quite as much now, but when I did I usually had a list of the usual things I preferred to be paid for and then a list of things that I would do TF, and then welcoming people to contact me to discuss anything not on either list.

For example, I shoot a lot of art nudes so I generally ask to be paid for that unless there is some other factor of awesomeness to the shoot (skilled MUA/hair, unique location, etc). Because I shoot that type of nudes and I guess I do so fairly well, a lot of people see that in my port and want that for their port or whatnot. Unfortunately, doing TF for that rarely benefits me because I have hundreds and hundreds of art nudes. If I am going to do TF for art nudes I need to think they are going to surpass anything in my port.

A different example is glamour/sexy nudes. I am not often hired for those and do not pursue that style very heavily so I really have little use for that type of photo in my port. I will shoot it, but because photos of that type will not benefit me, I ask to be paid. Of course, if I believe the photos would be phenomenal, I would consider TF.

The key is that I have to believe the photos are going to benefit me in order to do TF. The same goes for anyone else, I think, photographers, models, MUAs, stylists all included. You do TF when you think it will benefit you and your portfolio. I think this also reflects the time/skill level of the person. When I was new I just needed photos and spent probably 6 months just shooting TF with anyone who was at least fair at photography. Then I started being a little more selective and I was getting paid offers by then. And then it got to the point where someone had to not only be pretty good, but also be able to offer me something not already in my portfolio, plus I had limited time due to my job so shoots had to really count one way or another.
Aug 22 13 08:10 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,889
Detroit, Michigan, US


I will add that if models are saying they will TF with you and then suddenly changing it mid discussion, that is both rude and unprofessional. But if their profiles simply say they do some TF and they opt to ask you for payment, that may just mean they do not think they can benefit from what they see that you have to offer.
Aug 22 13 08:11 am  Link  Quote 
Model
all_names_are_taken
Posts: 337
Ankeny, Iowa, US


RKD Photographic wrote:

Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

This.  There is a difference between "I will do TF" and "I will do TF with you."

Aug 22 13 08:16 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2,040
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Glenn Hall - Fine Art wrote:
It's a vanity thing. Call yourself a model, make an account here on MM and then feed the ego and insist on payment after a few bites from unwitting photographers looking for TFP collaboration.

Not really.

Just because a model states that he or she does TF doesn't mean they are going to accept every TF offer they get, and frankly it's highly egotistical to assume that models ask to be paid because they are vain. In many cases, we ask to be paid because the photographer's work isn't of high enough quality to make a TF shoot worth the model's time.

Aug 22 13 08:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Untitled Photographer
Posts: 1,203
Dallas, Texas, US


all_names_are_taken wrote:

This.  There is a difference between "I will do TF" and "I will do TF with you."

OMG you made me laugh and this is so true.  Ha ha ha .  Just because a woman joins a dating site and says I like tall, dark handsome men does not mean she will date just any tall, dark handsome man.

Aug 22 13 08:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
1k-words-photograpy
Posts: 352
Leesburg, Virginia, US


Going to go with the majority here and say maybe they just didn't want to shoot with you. Maybe they don't like your pictures, or they didnt like your concept or they didnt like something you said during an exchange. Its really as simple as that.

Its MM, thats going to happen. Heck sometimes you have to work pretty hard around here even to find reliable models for paid and published work.

That said, sure its frustrating. But all you can do is pick up and keep moving.
Aug 22 13 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Axioma
Posts: 6,789
Gent, East Flanders, Belgium


Aug 22 13 08:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,224
Pelham, New York, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

all_names_are_taken wrote:
This.  There is a difference between "I will do TF" and "I will do TF with you."

This ^^^

If a model already has similar photos in her port, why would she shoot TFP for more of the same pics. Even most very experienced models will work TFP if they are going to get something different for their port.

Aug 22 13 08:41 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Babalon Salome
Posts: 3,499
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


RKD Photographic wrote:
Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

This.

/thread

Aug 22 13 08:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BeachBoudoir
Posts: 728
Robertsdale, Alabama, US


They just don't want to tfp with you. It isn't being hypocritical. Would you shoot with just anyone if they asked?

For tfp you have to benefit their port, or they feel led to help you out with yours. It is much easier to get models if they feel you can benefit them. If you need something for your port and you are not getting bites with tfp, pay them.

It doesn't matter how desperately you want to shoot with them. They have to have a reason to shoot with you.
Aug 22 13 09:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18,093
Albany, New York, US


all_names_are_taken wrote:
This.  There is a difference between "I will do TF" and "I will do TF with you."

Basically.

I know many a model who is hardly a pro (for the purposes of this discussion, I'm defining it as someone who dervies a majority of their income & can earn a living completely off of it). They model when they want to, when they want to. Its not a strike on anyone involved, it just is what it is.

Aug 22 13 09:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,554
Salem, Oregon, US


it means that whatever you offered them wasn't compelling enough for them to want to do it on a trade basis. either pay them (maybe you can negotiate a bit on price) or move on. don't get hung up on particular models here or you will make yourself crazy. just find the ones who will shoot TF with you.
Aug 22 13 09:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Isaiah Brink
Posts: 2,116
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Ario Triwibowo wrote:
Hello. I would like to have a discussion here. I don't know whether this has been brought up or not.

I have seen a lot of models from where I came from, stating in MM that they can do TFCD and interested to do it to expand their portfolio and stuffs.

But when I approach them to discuss such project, they overturn their policy by saying paid assignments only.

I mean to these models, if you don't want TFCD, why don't you just say it in the beginning. Or if you have changed your mind, by using to accept TFCD in the past but no at the present, then at least change it in your profile too?

I just find it a bit inconsistent and annoying to some extent.


What do you think?

Maybe what it is that they have a serious case of gas and they are just farting up a storm, and they are embarrassed, so when a photographer asks for a trade shoot, they know they will get rid of them by saying paid assignments only.  Or could it be the simple fact that they love getting offered shoots and people wanting to work with them and have the power to say no.

Aug 22 13 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,781
Belmont, California, US


Dekilah wrote:
I will add that if models are saying they will TF with you and then suddenly changing it mid discussion, that is both rude and unprofessional. But if their profiles simply say they do some TF and they opt to ask you for payment, that may just mean they do not think they can benefit from what they see that you have to offer.

+1

Aug 22 13 10:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Abigail Rose Hill
Posts: 538
Newcastle upon Tyne, England, United Kingdom


I don't TF anymore.

I TEST with photographers who can develop my portfolio in a specific direction. Even then it all has to be approved and formally booked, rather than a quick MM message.
Aug 22 13 12:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Creative Lion Images
Posts: 41
Hobart, Indiana, US


I have had fairly decent luck lining up trade for shoots off this site mostly with up and coming models who legitimately do want to update or upgrade their port or with models who want to shoot with me in general or want to shoot with me in some of my locations I shoot regularly during the warmer months...and a couple of the less experienced models have really impressed me with their ability and enthusiasm...to them I say kudos!...now here is the down side...for every 1 model that legitimately wants to shoot trade for I probably have to screen through 10 to 20 flakes...time wasters!!!!...and time is valuable to me as I am sure it is to everyone else...its a shame really...because this site can be a great tool for both models and photogs...but its abused...

here is where I am at with this now...if a models port does not at least equal or exceed mine in quality then I will not even consider her for a "paid shoot"...and Im sorry but cell phone, web cam pics and images that look like they were shot with a shitty point and shoot by your friend or boyfriend do not count as professional images that should be included in a professional models portfolio...neither do images that were shot by some hack with a dslr that couldn't compose, frame or light a shot if their life depended on it and at best they might make the cut as a photog for a Walmart photo center...and I don't care if he paid you $125 per hour to get nakey in front of the camera for him...that doesnt make you a pro...it makes you a glorified prostitute...lmao...and that doesn't mean I am going to pay you to do art nudes with me...its pretty easy to tell the difference between a truly professional model and a wack bag...

if a models port is lacking quality images, but she has the right look and attitude and she sincerely wants to upgrade her port and wants to shoot trade for with me I am always open to discuss details of a potential shoot...the minute she starts to flake on me I stop all further discussion and move on...this includes the ones who email with vague one line emails and inablitiy to make a decision shoot date, times etc...waste of time!

if a models port looks professional and I like her look and posing ability and really want to work with her I will often times offer to cover reasonable cost of travel/gas expenses for her to get to the shoot since I am often times shooting on location...

good luck man...lots of flakes out there!
Aug 22 13 01:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HoniDrops
Posts: 18
Dunwoody, Georgia, US


Ario Triwibowo wrote:
Hello. I would like to have a discussion here. I don't know whether this has been brought up or not.

I have seen a lot of models from where I came from, stating in MM that they can do TFCD and interested to do it to expand their portfolio and stuffs.

But when I approach them to discuss such project, they overturn their policy by saying paid assignments only.

I mean to these models, if you don't want TFCD, why don't you just say it in the beginning. Or if you have changed your mind, by using to accept TFCD in the past but no at the present, then at least change it in your profile too?

I just find it a bit inconsistent and annoying to some extent.


What do you think?

This is a common mind game that "models" play here.   I used to give them the benefit of the doubt believing that "they just don't want to do TF with me because my port may not be what they want".  But as I've become more willing to pay for models I've discovered that my theory was completely off target.  Most of the models on here can't discern quality and/or don't care. If they see an angle to charge you, knowing their port is fully of windows phone pics, they'll cling to that angle, even if it means losing a chance to actually progress as a model and improve their dire  port.

Less than 10% of the models here are serious about modeling.  Most are about making a short term buck.  There's nothing wrong with making money, but it's a dayum shame to see these "paid assignments only" or misleading TF posting, when their port shows NO progress at all over the past 12 months.

My advice to you is to expect a model to be honest from the beginning and move on.  If they say TF, then approach them with that expectation.  We are all adults, so dont put up with the fee/tf games models play, unless of course you are desperate.

Happy hunting....

Aug 22 13 01:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


all_names_are_taken wrote:
There is a difference between "I will do TF" and "I will do TF with you."

+1

OP, don't sweat it - there will always be another model along tomorrow smile






Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Aug 22 13 01:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HoniDrops
Posts: 18
Dunwoody, Georgia, US


Jeff Fiore wrote:

RKD Photographic wrote:
Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

This ^^^

If a model already has similar photos in her port, why would she shoot TFP for more of the same pics. Even most very experienced models will work TFP if they are going to get something different for their port.

Theres alot more to modeling than "a look in x port".  By your logic, once a photographer does a swimsuit shoot, they should never do another.  Repetition develops skill and creativity.  At least, that's what I thought.

Aug 22 13 01:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HoniDrops
Posts: 18
Dunwoody, Georgia, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

Not so at all.  MM is full of modeling ports with poor quality pics that play the "FT/Paid" game.  Believe me, I wish you were correct, but do a search and you'll see for yourself that what you assert just isn't so.

Aug 22 13 01:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BeachBoudoir
Posts: 728
Robertsdale, Alabama, US


HoniDrops wrote:
Not so at all.  MM is full of modeling ports with poor quality pics that play the "FT/Paid" game.  Believe me, I wish you were correct, but do a search and you'll see for yourself that what you assert just isn't so.

This is subjective. What you feel isn't good work the model may feel the photographers work benefits them.

Aug 22 13 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 36,623
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I say I don't do TF so people won't harass me for non-beneficial TF. Then, when I find someone with a portfolio that interest me, I will take initiative to contact them. Models get a LOT of trade solicitations, so the fact is, if your work doesn't stand out to them, they probably won't be interested in trading with you.
Aug 22 13 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Glenn Hall - Fine Art
Posts: 450
Townsville, Queensland, Australia


JessieLeigh wrote:
Not really.

Just because a model states that he or she does TF doesn't mean they are going to accept every TF offer they get, and frankly it's highly egotistical to assume that models ask to be paid because they are vain. In many cases, we ask to be paid because the photographer's work isn't of high enough quality to make a TF shoot worth the model's time.

Actually, I am with the others who point out it's plain rude and unprofessional.
No shades of grey here. No megalomaniacs either...rofl
You want to get paid? Fine, don't be rude and unprofessional. Simply state you will do TFP for some but NOT ALL...see, that wasn't so hard. Not rocket science either.

...that's why MM has options such as, "depends on assignment", "paid only", "Time for Print" etc etc...
If you want to lure people into your portfolio, so you stand out from the rest of the crowd during a search, by stating you do TFP and then insist on payment once a party is interested...yup, rude and unprofessional with a touch of ego and vanity stroking for some.

Aug 22 13 05:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Tiffany_B
Posts: 1,338
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

Personally I think that it's asinine of a model or anyone else to state that they work TF* without providing any caveats to that and then when contacted about trade work to proclaim they only do paid work.

How difficult is it to state that they are interested in select TF* and then to provide the parameters under which they are willing to do a trade shoot? The only logical reason I can think of for a model not doing this is because he/she likes getting messages about shoots even if they don't have any interest in doing them.

Aug 22 13 05:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,449
London, England, United Kingdom


Glenn Hall - Fine Art wrote:
Simply state you will do TFP for some but NOT ALL...see, that wasn't so hard.

Anyone who thinks that someone stating they will do TFP can mean anything but they will do TFP for some but not all is mentally retarded.

Aug 22 13 05:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Laura Bello
Posts: 1,595
Rochester, New York, US


Tiffany_B wrote:

Personally I think that it's asinine of a model or anyone else to state that they work TF* without providing any caveats to that and then when contacted about trade work to proclaim they only do paid work.

How difficult is it to state that they are interested in select TF* and then to provide the parameters under which they are willing to do a trade shoot? The only logical reason I can think of for a model not doing this is because he/she likes getting messages about shoots even if they don't have any interest in doing them.

Based on how MM works, I feel like that's why I put my profile as depends on assignment.That way people don't assume one thing or the other when they're messaging me.  If someone else ask me for a trade shoot that I'm not interested in I do mention that I'm only working with select models, I just tend to not put that directly in my profile so I don't scare anyone off right away that I actually will work with for trade.  It's hard to be specific other than that cause it isn't really based on high or that they're with an agency or experience, it's just how I feel about them being good for my port.

Aug 22 13 05:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
Tiffany_B
Posts: 1,338
Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, US


Ariadne Photography wrote:
Based on how MM works, I feel like that's why I put my profile as depends on assignment.That way people don't assume one thing or the other when they're messaging me.  If someone else ask me for a trade shoot that I'm not interested in I do mention that I'm only working with select models, I just tend to not put that directly in my profile so I don't scare anyone off right away that I actually will work with for trade.  It's hard to be specific other than that cause it isn't really based on high or that they're with an agency or experience, it's just how I feel about them being good for my port.

That certainly works as well!

Aug 22 13 07:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,860
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


all_names_are_taken wrote:

This.  There is a difference between "I will do TF" and "I will do TF with you."

+1

Aug 22 13 08:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
CRIMSON REIGN
Posts: 813
Baltimore, Maryland, US


Dekilah wrote:
I try to be very up front in my portfolio. I do not shoot quite as much now, but when I did I usually had a list of the usual things I preferred to be paid for and then a list of things that I would do TF, and then welcoming people to contact me to discuss anything not on either list.

For example, I shoot a lot of art nudes so I generally ask to be paid for that unless there is some other factor of awesomeness to the shoot (skilled MUA/hair, unique location, etc). Because I shoot that type of nudes and I guess I do so fairly well, a lot of people see that in my port and want that for their port or whatnot. Unfortunately, doing TF for that rarely benefits me because I have hundreds and hundreds of art nudes. If I am going to do TF for art nudes I need to think they are going to surpass anything in my port.

A different example is glamour/sexy nudes. I am not often hired for those and do not pursue that style very heavily so I really have little use for that type of photo in my port. I will shoot it, but because photos of that type will not benefit me, I ask to be paid. Of course, if I believe the photos would be phenomenal, I would consider TF.

The key is that I have to believe the photos are going to benefit me in order to do TF. The same goes for anyone else, I think, photographers, models, MUAs, stylists all included. You do TF when you think it will benefit you and your portfolio. I think this also reflects the time/skill level of the person. When I was new I just needed photos and spent probably 6 months just shooting TF with anyone who was at least fair at photography. Then I started being a little more selective and I was getting paid offers by then. And then it got to the point where someone had to not only be pretty good, but also be able to offer me something not already in my portfolio, plus I had limited time due to my job so shoots had to really count one way or another.

+1
In some cases, I will compare what I already have to what's in the photographer's port. It may help to take your best photo and compare it to what's already in the model's port. If it's not at the very least equal in quality, then it's possible that they won't shoot TF with you.

Aug 22 13 08:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ShotbyRon
Posts: 767
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


I think they are using it to lure people in or they just don't feel you can benefit them. If you aren't interesting in paying a model, just move on.
Aug 22 13 08:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R.EYE.R
Posts: 2,824
Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan


We always want something nice for free, but we don't want to give it to others for nothing....smile
Aug 22 13 09:38 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Rockabella
Posts: 583
New York, New York, US


Glenn Hall - Fine Art wrote:
Actually, I am with the others who point out it's plain rude and unprofessional.
No shades of grey here. No megalomaniacs either...rofl
You want to get paid? Fine, don't be rude and unprofessional. Simply state you will do TFP for some but NOT ALL...see, that wasn't so hard. Not rocket science either.

...that's why MM has options such as, "depends on assignment", "paid only", "Time for Print" etc etc...
If you want to lure people into your portfolio, so you stand out from the rest of the crowd during a search, by stating you do TFP and then insist on payment once a party is interested...yup, rude and unprofessional with a touch of ego and vanity stroking for some.

OP:
"I have seen a lot of models from where I came from, stating in MM that they can do TFCD and interested to do it to expand their portfolio"

That seems to me like it's saying Trade but not for all, but lets not argue grammar or linguistics.

Sure, you have a valid argument. Someone who puts up on their profile that they are looking only for TFP/CD and then asking for payment is misleading. But why are we assuming that the person in question did this? The original post only stated just that the person was interested in trade work to expand their portfolio. They also didn't say that they changed their mind mid-conversation (which.. would be REALLY rude imo).

A person who simply is looking for trade work to improve their portfolio doesn't accept every offer they get, like JessieLeigh says.

I think it's rude of us to assume validity of this without first knowing the other facts that go along with it. If that's what the person did, then I agree it's silly and messed up.

Declining an offer doesn't make you vain; maybe they didn't think the work would benefit their port.

Aug 23 13 01:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


RKD Photographic wrote:
Maybe they do work TFP  - but only with photographers whose work they actually like and which would benefit their portfolios?

HoniDrops wrote:
Not so at all.  MM is full of modeling ports with poor quality pics that play the "FT/Paid" game.  Believe me, I wish you were correct, but do a search and you'll see for yourself that what you assert just isn't so.

Not an assertion - the clue to that is in the word 'maybe' at the beginning of my first sentence.

Aug 23 13 01:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


JadeDRed wrote:

Anyone who thinks that someone stating they will do TFP can mean anything but they will do TFP for some but not all is mentally retarded.

Exactly - stating that they work TFP doesn't, cannot possibly mean they will shoot TFP with every person who asks - that's insane...

Aug 23 13 01:26 am  Link  Quote 
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