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Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


I am NOT  agency standard runway model, but I do walk for many independent shows. I have walked regularly with tall as well as shorter, meaning 5'8 and under. What I see is that many of the standard runway girls are not abled to walk well or carry the clothes well. The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing. The  reason by Designers why they choose Tall is because they  say the clothes fit better. Not the case. I could include the fact that Black models are being used less and less also because the Designers think that the clothes won't suit them and in reality, I do find in many cases, the black models look better in the collections.
Contentious issue, but Fashion people come up with the lamest excuses.
Mar 05 14 12:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,636
Orlando, Florida, US


Sounds like sour grapes to me.

This issue has been covered. Clients pick the models. Clothing designers pick taller models to walk with their designs.

If you're getting some runway jobs, be thankful.



Were you making a point, or just venting?
Mar 05 14 12:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


I am not saying I should be in London Fashion week etc. Where have I said vibr? I am talking about girls I see who would be Amazing as Runway models who would not get a look in..
But of course the Default comments on here is to Bitch about the Model because we are all sad cases. I should just be grateful for the Status Quo .
Mar 05 14 12:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,334
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


I say be happy that you are asked to walk. Who cares what the next girl gets or doesn't get. Who cares if she doesn't carry the clothes well. It's not your job to worry about other girls unless it effects you. I don't see this effecting you at all.
Mar 05 14 12:46 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


I am making a General observation. Am trying to get people who have perhaps noticed the same. This is not a personal thing. If it does not affect me then it really does not affect you Danielle, so why get involved?
Mar 05 14 12:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 27,097
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


redacted
Mar 05 14 12:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,334
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


marissa charles wrote:
I am making a General observation. Am trying to get people who have perhaps noticed the same. This is not a personal thing. If it does not affect me then it really does not affect you Danielle, so why get involved?

Because this is an open forum and you posted a thread therefore I commented. I suppose you could say the exact same thing to anyone that bothers to comment here.

Next time, write it in your diary.

Mar 05 14 12:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


Well that is why I have posted. Because it is am open forum. You telling me not to make it my business is rich when it is not yours either really. The statement you have was irrelevant..
Mar 05 14 01:01 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,334
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


marissa charles wrote:
Well that is why I have posted. Because it is am open forum. You telling me not to make it my business is rich when it is not yours either really. The statement you have was irrelevant..

Almost as irrelevant as your rant. But okay, princess.

Mar 05 14 01:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


Danielle Reid wrote:

Almost as irrelevant as your rant. But okay, princess.

.
?

Mar 05 14 01:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,485
San Diego, California, US


*Paging Udor, Udor to the model forum, please . . . .*
Mar 05 14 01:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


Garry k wrote:
redacted

I am now watching the link. It is very interesting. Thank you and it is a shame it has been taken off  this thread.

Mar 05 14 01:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,179
Chicago, Illinois, US


marissa charles wrote:
I am making a General observation. Am trying to get people who have perhaps noticed the same. This is not a personal thing. If it does not affect me then it really does not affect you Danielle, so why get involved?

Sadly some folks don't see or care about these things.   There have been several powerful pieces written about the current trend in runway and fashion print.   http://jezebel.com/5985110/new-york-fas … ing-whiter   Photographers like Nick Knight and models like Naomi Campbell along with White models have also spoken up.   This is a modeling website and this problem concerns models.  Some members may not get that or care.   I would ignore them.

Mar 05 14 01:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 22,284
New York, New York, US


Mortonovich wrote:
*Paging Udor, Udor to the model forum, please . . . .*

LOL... got it...

Not sure if I really want to participate yet...

Mar 05 14 01:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Another Italian Guy
Posts: 3,279
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


marissa charles wrote:
The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing.

Clearly you prefer the way shorter girls look.

Sadly for shorter girls, you're in the minority.

marissa charles wrote:
I do find in many cases, the black models look better in the collections.

Again, personal preference.

Models are chosen by clients (advertisers, designers etc.) and it's obviously always going to be their preferences which determine the demand for models of any given demographic. We all have personal preferences but unless we're the ones paying the agency invoices, those preferences aren't ever going to amount to much.





Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Mar 05 14 01:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,179
Chicago, Illinois, US


Another Italian Guy wrote:

marissa charles wrote:
The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing.

Clearly you prefer the way shorter girls look.

Sadly for shorter girls, you're in the minority.


Again, personal preference.

Models are chosen by clients (advertisers, designers etc.) and it's obviously always going to be their preferences which determine the demand for models of any given demographic. We all have personal preferences but unless we're the ones paying the agency invoices, those preferences aren't ever going to amount to much.





Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

There seems to been a change over the last few years.   Fewer minority models are being used according to those who watch these things.   How does what the public want affect models used.   Should it.   Is it good to be more inclusive or does it ever really matter.   Unfortunately  we are limited in what we can discuss now

Mar 05 14 02:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


Just saying that that is how the Industry is and accept it is appalling. if people did not speak up about things that are clearly wrong, then the Western world for a start would be VERY different and I as a woman for a start would not even be allowed to have a say on any matter.
I could extend the concerns to things like underage models being used....
Mar 05 14 02:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,486
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


5' 8" + 4" heels is a good height.


What was the No 1 black model agency in the UK moved it's whole business to Africa where it's become very successful unlike the UK.

I keep in contact with them through FB and were an agency I used to test quiet regularly with alas no more.
Mar 05 14 02:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Another Italian Guy
Posts: 3,279
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


marissa charles wrote:
Just saying that that is how the Industry is and accept it is appalling.

The person who pays the bill always calls the tune.

marissa charles wrote:
If people did not speak up about things that are clearly wrong, then the Western world for a start would be VERY different.

Are you suggesting it's some kind of human rights issue that designers and clients don't prefer short models?





Just my $0.02 etc. etc.

Mar 05 14 02:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,449
London, England, United Kingdom


It's not about what looks better, it's about, dum dum dum, fashion. The fashionable look for models is tall, and usually white, and usually thin.
Mar 05 14 03:45 am  Link  Quote 
Model
marissa charles
Posts: 2,882
London, England, United Kingdom


The Something Guy wrote:
5' 8" + 4" heels is a good height.


What was the No 1 black model agency in the UK moved it's whole business to Africa where it's become very successful unlike the UK.

I keep in contact with them through FB and were an agency I used to test quiet regularly with alas no more.

.

Yes unfortunately that is happening more. I also am noticing that the more the subject gets highlighted, the more the Industry clams up.  I am obviously being slated here for discussing such an issue so things are not going to change in the near future.

Mar 05 14 06:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,801
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Speaking as a marketing professional we use whom ever the public reacts to (buys more) and have no real preference.
Mar 05 14 06:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,825
Bellefonte, Pennsylvania, US


OP,

No matter what 'The Industry' does, I find your attitude as narrow-minded and offensive as 'The Industry' that you are condemning.

And I find it odd that you don't even possess the conviction to actually list your own ethnicity in your profile.
Mar 05 14 06:33 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


marissa charles wrote:
I am NOT  agency standard runway model, but I do walk for many independent shows. I have walked regularly with tall as well as shorter, meaning 5'8 and under. What I see is that many of the standard runway girls are not abled to walk well or carry the clothes well. The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing. The  reason by Designers why they choose Tall is because they  say the clothes fit better. Not the case. I could include the fact that Black models are being used less and less also because the Designers think that the clothes won't suit them and in reality, I do find in many cases, the black models look better in the collections.
Contentious issue, but Fashion people come up with the lamest excuses.

I think this is where it went wrong:

this is your experience. If that is your experience, that is fine. However, caliming it as if it's an industry fact, that is an entirely different thing.

Just to be clear: not the race issue, that is certainly valid, but the height issue.

I know plenty of shorter girls who are great at runway. I also know plenty of shorter girls who completely suck at runway. Some know they suck, most of them think they're a runwayqueen. Same with tall girls: some suck, some are great, and opinons of themselves vary.

But stating, as a fact, that clothes don't look good on tall girls, and that shorter girls are better walkers than tall girls... Is simply incorrect. If that is your experience, that's fine, but that doesn't make it true for other people or the industry as a whole.

Mar 05 14 08:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,537
Muncie, Indiana, US


Nothing posted on MM is going to change the industry. Get real.
Mar 05 14 08:35 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


AJScalzitti wrote:
Speaking as a marketing professional we use whom ever the public reacts to (buys more) and have no real preference.

nah, come on, as a marketing professional you know that that's only partly true smile. It's not merely a bottom up process "oh, that's what the public wants to see so we give it to them"

Henry Ford always says it so much better than me: "if I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

Mar 05 14 09:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 897
Darlington, South Carolina, US


marissa charles wrote:
I am NOT  agency standard runway model, but I do walk for many independent shows. I have walked regularly with tall as well as shorter, meaning 5'8 and under. What I see is that many of the standard runway girls are not abled to walk well or carry the clothes well. The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing. The  reason by Designers why they choose Tall is because they  say the clothes fit better. Not the case. I could include the fact that Black models are being used less and less also because the Designers think that the clothes won't suit them and in reality, I do find in many cases, the black models look better in the collections.
Contentious issue, but Fashion people come up with the lamest excuses. because the fashion people don't bow down to what "I" want.

Above is the root of the problems you mentioned. Just be happy that you are able to work and that they (the fashion people) are hiring you.

Mar 05 14 09:35 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,334
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


Hi_Spade Photography wrote:

Above is the root of the problems you mentioned. Just be happy that you are able to work and that they (the fashion people) are hiring you.

+1

Mar 05 14 09:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Peters Fotografie
Posts: 1,058
Tucson, Arizona, US


the tall model has become tradition, which means stuck in a box in many ways, and can't think out of it.
but there is a practical side ...
1.  the designer brings one size of clothes, and they fit everyone
2.  if the stage is not elevated, then yes, taller is better
3.  row 24 needs to see the fashion show too, taller is practical
4.  longer dresses flow better than shorter ones
5.  in many fashion shows, the designers share the same models, so they all need to be the same size
6.  tall models can never be in Olympic gymnastics, they are simply too stiff and awkward, shorter people can, they have much more body movement.  in fashion, this really isn't an issue.
7.  it's human nature, more often than not, in beauty pagents, the tallest wins.  go figure.

the irony of course, is most of the fashion buying public is short, teenagers and plus-size.  keep in mind, the real side of fashion is dressing people to go to work, dinner and school, not the opera.....
Mar 05 14 10:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Evie Wolfe
Posts: 1,201
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


Eh hmm I'm fat and short, but have more runway experience than a lot of the 5'8+ models I know. It is the status quo to pick the tallest models, so designers pick the tallest models. I doubt very many of them have tried their clothes on short models and then tall models and compared, they just do it because that is what is expected - which is fine, because we all do that for one reason or another, and the fashion industry has rarely been what anyone might consider 'forward thinking' about bucking trends.

If I were a designer, I'd book some street or contemporary dancers, so they could do something really cool and interesting for their end of runway posing!
Mar 05 14 10:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
barepixels
Posts: 2,909
San Diego, California, US


I have zero clue about the fashion world but these 5 points makes sense.

Neil Peters Fotografie wrote:
1.  the designer brings one size of clothes, and they fit everyone
2.  if the stage is not elevated, then yes, taller is better
3.  row 24 needs to see the fashion show too, taller is practical
4.  longer dresses flow better than shorter ones
5.  in many fashion shows, the designers share the same models, so they all need to be the same size

Mar 05 14 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 27,097
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Neil Peters Fotografie wrote:
the tall model has become tradition, which means stuck in a box in many ways, and can't think out of it.
but there is a practical side ...
1.  the designer brings one size of clothes, and they fit everyone
2.  if the stage is not elevated, then yes, taller is better
3.  row 24 needs to see the fashion show too, taller is practical
4.  longer dresses flow better than shorter ones
5.  in many fashion shows, the designers share the same models, so they all need to be the same size
6.  tall models can never be in Olympic gymnastics, they are simply too stiff and awkward, shorter people can, they have much more body movement.  in fashion, this really isn't an issue.
7.  it's human nature, more often than not, in beauty pagents, the tallest wins.  go figure.

the irony of course, is most of the fashion buying public is short, teenagers and plus-size.  keep in mind, the real side of fashion is dressing people to go to work, dinner and school, not the opera.....

Sometimes its a bit more than that ie the fickleness of certain designers . Here is an article reporting how upset designer Marc Jacobs was that 5'9 model Cara Delevine had attended the casting for one of his shows .Reportedly he called her a dwarf

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/new … d=10891123

and I dont know if the tallest girl always wins in beauty pageants either ...A couple of years ago I met your Miss America Teresa Scanlan when one of our Canadian Designers ( Joseph Ribkoff ) flew her in to be a part of his Fashion Week presentation here ...I remember seeing her backstage amongst a group of our no name runway models for the show and thinking she looked somewhat out of place given that she was a couple of inches shorter than most of them . She has that pretty wholesome look though , and seemed to have a pleasant personality in conversing with her

Mar 05 14 10:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,636
Orlando, Florida, US


marissa charles wrote:
Just saying that that is how the Industry is and accept it is appalling. if people did not speak up about things that are clearly wrong, then the Western world for a start would be VERY different and I as a woman for a start would not even be allowed to have a say on any matter.
I could extend the concerns to things like underage models being used....

Are you comparing the instance of designers and clients preferring taller models for their runway to human rights?


Cute.

Mar 05 14 11:02 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Neil Peters Fotografie wrote:
the tall model has become tradition, which means stuck in a box in many ways, and can't think out of it.
but there is a practical side ...
1.  the designer brings one size of clothes, and they fit everyone
2.  if the stage is not elevated, then yes, taller is better
3.  row 24 needs to see the fashion show too, taller is practical
4.  longer dresses flow better than shorter ones
5.  in many fashion shows, the designers share the same models, so they all need to be the same size
6.  tall models can never be in Olympic gymnastics, they are simply too stiff and awkward, shorter people can, they have much more body movement.  in fashion, this really isn't an issue.
7.  it's human nature, more often than not, in beauty pagents, the tallest wins.  go figure.

the irony of course, is most of the fashion buying public is short, teenagers and plus-size.  keep in mind, the real side of fashion is dressing people to go to work, dinner and school, not the opera.....

I' agree with 1, 4 and 5. But the other ones...

2 &3 . stage height has very little to do with it. row 24, without elevation, can see the models heads at best, whether the designer uses midgets or giants. Fashionshows with that many rows will most likely have seats that go up as you sit further away, with the runway at the lowest point.

6. there are many, MANY olympic sports where you pretty much HAVE to be tall in order to be succesful. Jumping, swimming, basketball, volleyball, longdistance iceskating, to name a few. The requirements to be an olympic athlete have very little to do with the requirements to be a succesful runway model, so it's completely irrelevant.

7. beauty pageant contestants tend to be on the short side (not model-height anyway). For women, being shorter than the average male is an attractive and feminine quality. Beauty pageant contests also, in general, look for a completely different type of look than the fashion industry does. You can't really compare beauty pageants with fashion runway shows...

Mar 05 14 11:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,801
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:

nah, come on, as a marketing professional you know that that's only partly true smile. It's not merely a bottom up process "oh, that's what the public wants to see so we give it to them"

Henry Ford always says it so much better than me: "if I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

Very few clients are willing to think that way, most will simply follow a trend or stick with what is proven.  I personally have sugested more plus sized models before and was met with limited success (from clients that is).

Mar 05 14 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Sandra Vixen
Posts: 988
Los Angeles, California, US


I beg to differ, shorter people do not "walk better".

Height is really not an issue of how well you walk. How well you walk is a combination of your body proportions, muscle build, joint flexibility, bone lengths, center of gravity, and your kinesthetic locomotion (walking) skills.

The last being the most overlooked and under-trained.

I think the reason that you observe taller models not walking well, is that maybe they are new (newbies), they got in really easily because they were tall and got picked. But they lack training and experience.

I see a lot of posters of tall runway models about to fall over or break a bone because they can barely walk (as if they were 2 month olds). I mean, it was shocking.

Shorter models may have worked harder all their lives and had better movement training, I recently worked on a study that showed shorter children (girls) are 30-40 fold (3000%-4000%) more likely to be encouraged into physical activity and stay with it than compared to taller children (n > 900).

But that does not mean taller girls are not physically capable of great movement, for example, I'm from Asia and I'm 5'10". I dance ballet, and en pointe (note that the typically desired western dancer is around 5'0").
Mar 05 14 03:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,449
London, England, United Kingdom


Anna Adrielle wrote:
7. beauty pageant contestants tend to be on the short side (not model-height anyway). For women, being shorter than the average male is an attractive and feminine quality. Beauty pageant contests also, in general, look for a completely different type of look than the fashion industry does. You can't really compare beauty pageants with fashion runway shows...

True, I don't think it can be said tallness in women is a widely held standard of beauty, fashion models do not completely reflect wider standards of beauty. The standards in fashion modelling are a thing unto themselves and not directly comparable with other beauty standards. They have a certain glamour about them for being fashion models, but are not necessarily fashion models for being a stereotypical glamorous look.

Mar 05 14 03:51 pm  Link  Quote 
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Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


AJScalzitti wrote:
Very few clients are willing to think that way, most will simply follow a trend or stick with what is proven.  I personally have sugested more plus sized models before and was met with limited success (from clients that is).

yes, but here's the thing: until people start actually using plus size models on a regular basis, and there is data to support that it works, a lot of people won't try it. And as long as people don't try it (or anything else that is "different"), then there will never be data to support that it works. So everything stays the same.

The second thing is more of a cultural thing: there has been white dominance ever since fashion as we know it existed. a "white" beauty standard has been implemented in cultures everywhere around the world, for centuries. that's very much a top down process. And now, that may have mosty actively stopped (although it's still going on), but after centuries of seeing a certain type of beauty as ideal (and think in general terms here, not in details because I do realize there have been changes in the beauty ideal over time), it's really not that much of a shock that that's what people want to see. And as long as nothing changes, it's what they will continue to want to see. Again: because that's the way it's always been.

plus, the fashion industry, perhaps even more than other industries, is an incredible top down process. It starts with the shows, and then usually in 2-3 seasons the trends shown there seep down to what you see in the shops, and 1-2 seasons after that for the "real" people to start liking it as a trend. When it comes to fashion, consumers are very much slowy being spoonfed what to like. this 30 second video (in shitty quality :p) from "the devil wears prada" tells it perfectly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRb3ZVvVkbA

It's not so much a matter of "giving them what they want", but "it's always worked like this, why should we bother changing", which directly causes that indeed nothing changes. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is a very important nuance.

Mar 05 14 10:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jen B
Posts: 3,106
Hopkinsville, Kentucky, US


marissa charles wrote:
I am NOT  agency standard runway model, but I do walk for many independent shows. I have walked regularly with tall as well as shorter, meaning 5'8 and under. What I see is that many of the standard runway girls are not abled to walk well or carry the clothes well. The shorter girls tend to be overall better walkers and look way better in the clothing.

....
Contentious issue, but Fashion people come up with the lamest excuses.

Sweeping generalizations also.

marissa charles wrote:
I am not saying I should be in London Fashion week etc. Where have I said vibr? I am talking about girls I see who would be Amazing as Runway models who would not get a look in..
But of course the Default comments on here is to Bitch about the Model because we are all sad cases. I should just be grateful for the Status Quo .

Um, well, I am not 17, nor 110 lbs and I'm very grateful for every show that I am allowed to participate while still enjoying the status quo as it is and avoiding sour grapes.

Besides, some of these young beautiful, tall models may one day model designs that I hope to make. smile!!

Jen

Mar 05 14 10:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danish delight
Posts: 691
Marina del Rey, California, US


clothes looks better on tall skinny models...

Im not one.... dont want to be one...

But thats the facts.
Mar 05 14 10:48 pm  Link  Quote 
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