Compass Rose Studios wrote:

Honestly, these kinds of threads always foundered on MM, even in its heyday. 

FWIW, I appreciate your input here.  And check most of post out.  I just don't come around as much anymore and when I do I no longer respond as much...mostly because nobody responds back much of the time. 

I might chock that up to my responses being boring or not engaging enough or whatever but my words do quite well on other discussion sites like reddit. 

Seems like these days, most threads here just seem to be people saying their peace rather than having discussions.  Combined with reduced forum traffic explains a lot. 

But hey it was fun while it lasted!

I think your points are very valid, and I agree with you ... especially in regards to any "discussion!"   More so with Soap Box topics, but you and I have had our disagreements on various topics while maintaining a friendship on here.  The past topics having to do with court cases in Florida have brought about some insightful and spirited discussion in which you and I have been involved. 

Do you get the feeling that people are afraid to have a disagreement here on the forum?  I think people are afraid to have any sort of spirited discussions like we used to on here!  The combination of getting rid of SB and the slow down of membership growth is probably what has done it.

The Something Guy wrote:

Men especially photographers are scared of intelligent women.

Not this one.
Love them.

The others bore the hell out of me.

The Something Guy wrote:
Photographer ; damn can't see a thing through the viewfinder, must be the new firmware I installed, need to reload it from the computer then reset the camera to factory setting, then do something ... need to Google what to do next.

Model; would it help if you took the lens cap of ?


Models are smarter.

Similar has happened to me, far too often!

Justin wrote:
Well, OK. A "threads aren't viable" thread that goes to three pages, so I'm compelled to pile on.

MM relies on dedicated help. Highly inflammatory and conflict-driven discussions were gobbling up the volunteer time and in general making things ugly. Ah, well. So long, Soapbox.

Surely in this world there are things to discuss that aren't hopelessly politically controversial. If there's not, that doesn't speak well to us as a community or as a species.

The challenge to Springheel to "use words" is highly ironic and not really justifiable. I have no problem deducing what his imagery is addressing, and I'm hopelessly old, staid, and outmoded.

Mahalos, Justin.  If people were better at self-editing, rather than relying on the mods, then SB would still be engaged.

Justin wrote:
Well, OK. A "threads aren't viable" thread that goes to three pages, so I'm compelled to pile on.

MM relies on dedicated help. Highly inflammatory and conflict-driven discussions were gobbling up the volunteer time and in general making things ugly. Ah, well. So long, Soapbox.

Surely in this world there are things to discuss that aren't hopelessly politically controversial. If there's not, that doesn't speak well to us as a community or as a species.

The challenge to Springheel to "use words" is highly ironic and not really justifiable. I have no problem deducing what his imagery is addressing, and I'm hopelessly old, staid, and outmoded.

Sounds to me like a reason for MM to start paying help....

Justin wrote:
...
MM relies on dedicated help.
...

Al Lock Photography wrote:
Sounds to me like a reason for MM to start paying help....

Yes, MM is getting what they pay for and the results of that policy are quite evident.

Al Lock Photography wrote:
Sounds to me like a reason for MM to start paying help....

That's not how you make money,
how unAmerican!
:p

Artifice wrote:
The soapbox threads are the least interesting to me.

But try to talk about art around here and see what happens...


https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=652901
LOL

or creativity...?

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=851885
LOL again

Design elements, composition and symmetry...?

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=916303
LOL again

Combining photography with miniatures and stage sets?

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=358278
another winner

edit:

I think I'm going to be able to include this thread, itself, in this list

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=919555

officially signing off...

Justin wrote:
MM relies on dedicated help. Highly inflammatory and conflict-driven discussions were gobbling up the volunteer time and in general making things ugly. Ah, well. So long, Soapbox.

Surely in this world there are things to discuss that aren't hopelessly politically controversial. If there's not, that doesn't speak well to us as a community or as a species.

Of course, the site was not founded on the points you make, thus the name "mayhem."

Justin wrote:
Well, OK. A "threads aren't viable" thread that goes to three pages, so I'm compelled to pile on.

MM relies on dedicated help. Highly inflammatory and conflict-driven discussions were gobbling up the volunteer time and in general making things ugly. Ah, well. So long, Soapbox.

Surely in this world there are things to discuss that aren't hopelessly politically controversial. If there's not, that doesn't speak well to us as a community or as a species.

The challenge to Springheel to "use words" is highly ironic and not really justifiable. I have no problem deducing what his imagery is addressing, and I'm hopelessly old, staid, and outmoded.

A decline in participation in the forum does not speak well for the website. 

Controversy is what drives discussion!  We don't need to talk about politics or religion to find disagreement or controversy.  We get plenty of mayhem from the constant "escort" and "flakes" threads.  The thing is that current events are constantly changing.  That stimulates new thoughts and discussion ... even if it's a new camera body, or a chain of camera stores closing ... things to change in the World of photography that can cause controversy.  However, the same old "escort" threads never change ... just new faces posting.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Do you get the feeling that people are afraid to have a disagreement here on the forum?  I think people are afraid to have any sort of spirited discussions like we used to on here!

That's part of it.  One of the things I think was a mistake (SB or no SB) is hiding comments that merit a brigging.  Sure, you could say lurid curiosity is part of why we might want to see them...but the other part is knowing what sets off moderation. 

I think the problem now is people don't know how spirited the discussion can get and play it safe.  A sort of self censorship.  And I think brigging doesn't quite have the cred it did before (didn't personally ever get brigged but it felt like some people wanted to) so you have participants less willing err on the side of...mayhem. 

Like I said there are other factors at play like just generally fewer participants, but these are contributing factors I suspect.

Justin wrote:
Well, OK. A "threads aren't viable" thread that goes to three pages, so I'm compelled to pile on.

MM relies on dedicated help. Highly inflammatory and conflict-driven discussions were gobbling up the volunteer time and in general making things ugly.

Surely you would agree there is a such thing as over-correcting?

Surely in this world there are things to discuss that aren't hopelessly politically controversial. If there's not, that doesn't speak well to us as a community or as a species.

Man is a political animal? 

More I think many subjects even if not specifically political have an ethical or value based component to them.  So there's that tendency to drift into that.

Compass Rose Studios wrote:

That's part of it.  One of the things I think was a mistake (SB or no SB) is hiding comments that merit a brigging.  Sure, you could say lurid curiosity is part of why we might want to see them...but the other part is knowing what sets off moderation. 

I think the problem now is people don't know how spirited the discussion can get and play it safe.  A sort of self censorship.  And I think brigging doesn't quite have the cred it did before (didn't personally ever get brigged but it felt like some people wanted to) so you have participants less willing err on the side of...mayhem. 

Like I said there are other factors at play like just generally fewer participants, but these are contributing factors I suspect.

Interesting you mentioned that.

I quit posting to dpreview.com and I was quite active there, until they instituted their "moderator" program two years ago.  Seems if you piss off a "mod" on your stance on a specific topic, then you get nasty mails from the specific "mod" who then shuts the thread down, and so be it - even if they later agree on what I said.  So I appear there no more.

Seems too much moderation is bad too.

Compass Rose Studios wrote:

That's part of it.  One of the things I think was a mistake (SB or no SB) is hiding comments that merit a brigging.  Sure, you could say lurid curiosity is part of why we might want to see them...but the other part is knowing what sets off moderation. 

I think the problem now is people don't know how spirited the discussion can get and play it safe.  A sort of self censorship.  And I think brigging doesn't quite have the cred it did before (didn't personally ever get brigged but it felt like some people wanted to) so you have participants less willing err on the side of...mayhem. 

Like I said there are other factors at play like just generally fewer participants, but these are contributing factors I suspect.

I found reading the locked threads very useful!  I know that we were able to discuss some of the court cases in Florida even on Off Topic, but SB allowed more freedom of expression.  If SB was too hot for somebody, they just needed to stay out of there!  Getting rid of it, and then dropping the locked threads from view has done more damage than good in my opinion.  So what is safe anymore?  I just hope I don't get brigged for expressing my opinion now. 

Compass Rose Studios wrote:
More I think many subjects even if not specifically political have an ethical or value based component to them.  So there's that tendency to drift into that.

Heck, it doesn't even have to be politics or religion ... we could get into a heated discussion on what is a good diet, or what car to buy. (or camera!) 

Robb Mann wrote:
So this is, to paraphrase Seinfeld, a thread about nothing?

Its about teh lulz

Al Lock Photography wrote:
Sounds to me like a reason for MM to start paying help....

To answer the complaints of members, many of whom are here for free. Irony abounds.

Jay  Edwards wrote:
Yes, MM is getting what they pay for and the results of that policy are quite evident.

Yeah, I think the volunteers do a pretty good job.

Justin wrote:
Surely in this world there are things to discuss that aren't hopelessly politically controversial. If there's not, that doesn't speak well to us as a community or as a species.

What Fun Productions wrote:
Of course, the site was not founded on the points you make, thus the name "mayhem."

If a founding point isn't supportable (such as, say, "personal attacks are just fine"), then it won't last.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
A decline in participation in the forum does not speak well for the website. 

Controversy is what drives discussion!  We don't need to talk about politics or religion to find disagreement or controversy.  We get plenty of mayhem from the constant "escort" and "flakes" threads.  The thing is that current events are constantly changing.  That stimulates new thoughts and discussion

I generally agree with this. And I wish that we could talk about current events, or even such things as an architectural landmark, without it devolving into a politicized discussion.

Compass Rose Studios wrote:
Surely you would agree there is a such thing as over-correcting?

Everywhere. There's a tender balance point between undercorrecting and overcorrecting, and in a big crowd, there's lots of different views on where that balance point is.

Man is a political animal? 

More I think many subjects even if not specifically political have an ethical or value based component to them.  So there's that tendency to drift into that.

I agree. And then it tends to drift to polarized camps. That's when it breaks down.

Justin wrote:

Yeah, I think the volunteers do a pretty good job.

I'm sure you do.

Justin wrote:
Yeah, I think the volunteers do a pretty good job.

Jay  Edwards wrote:
I'm sure you do.

And of course, I'd be quite surprised if you agreed. But I thought so before my current vantage point, and it's been reinforced, myself excepted, because 1) this role isn't a "job" and 2) I've been really busy making a living this last month or so and haven't been here all that much.

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:

Its about teh lulz

speaking of which - why are your GIF contributions declining ?

Garry k wrote:

speaking of which - why are your GIF contributions declining ?

Indeed...YOU HAD ONE JOB

ARA Photo wrote:
I find myself posting less and less. Which means I'm here less and less which is a problem for MM.

99% of the front page is irrelevant 99% of the time. In order..
I'm not interested in who the MM VIP's are 3 people from 800,00 members what does it achieve? I'm not a comment whore so nothing for me in announcements. An add to create website that I've looked at for so long I hardly see it anymore.

On my laptop that's what's above the fold - NOTHING!!

I now scroll..
Another screen of articles which rarely change and are rarely of interest down the left and more comment whoring on the right..


I now scroll..
Agggh the forums come into play... I see 8 of the latest updated articles..
The so called dynamic content. Unfortunately it's either full of competition threads or moans about flakes. I love a lively debate about shit that matters. If I get in a lively debate I come back to see what other folks are saying.. DID YOU SEE THAT MM I COME BACK... you want me back right??

This place is now completely over-moderated. People came here to work together, unfortunately that's getting harder and harder too as there are so many inactive models who never shoot but love to waste time...

AND before I get a shit ton of photographers who are clearly genius and have never had a flake.. I'm not interested in what you have to say or how clever you are.. Simple fact is that it used to be much easier to get models than it is now. FACT!

If I can't endure the pain of getting a model and there's no lively debate what is there? I used to have VIP membership. It brought no privilege worth having.

MM what is the value proposition to your members? CLUE - It isn't to get more free members and then serve us ads - that's not working..

Wow!!  Thank you for finding this before it got completely buried!   I'm sorry that I was so dismissive of the PurplePort postings in a thread on General Industry, but comparisons of other websites are actually discouraged on this forum.   I've sort of grown used to that.  The thing is that I have so many profiles on other places online that it's hard for me to keep track of.  I joined this site at the invitation of Tyler himself ... and continue to be "friends" with him on LinkIn.   He did pretty well in selling MM, but this website really has stagnated into a "Ground Hog Day" (like the movie) situation. We really do get the same old topics only with different faces.  The website has settled into a sort of cruize control.   How long can the status quo continue before members really do leave in droves?

Maybe I am wrong?  Perhaps a shake up, redo of the site would be a bad thing?  I was on OneModelPlace from 2000 until ... maybe 2008 or 09 when I finally gave up on the expense with little return.  The forums are fun here, but I would not pay just for that.  I do pull models from this site, but it seems that many of the same models are on other locations on the web too.  Most have Facebook, from which I do more commuincation after the first connection is made.  Many who have profiles on here have made first contact with me from casting calls I place on Craigslist.  Sure, I have to be careful on CL about any words having to do with nudity but most of the time my castings are successful there more often than on here. 

Zivity brought in a whole other approach, which is to provide away for models and photographers to make some money as well as have a portfolio to be seen.  The issues seem to be the amounts paid and the need for .. excuse the expression .. whoring oneself by spamming for votes on there.  Quite honestly, I do NOT want the models I work with to have to beg for votes ... I do get more than enough of that on my newsfeed on Facebook, and it makes me sick.  I sorry if I offend those who like those sort of contests, but I'm not into it.  There are contests on here, but I never enter.  The money made from Zivity is not anything grand either.  I'm pretty sure the average pay out is about enough for a dinner and night out for two ... if they're lucky!

Karl JW Johnston wrote:
I dunno patrick, maybe after 40k posts you finally found everything there was to discuss on forums..I'm feeling a bit at a loss myself personally and I haven't even hit the 5 figure mark here yet

I find a lot of old forums I used to frequent are inactive and dead.

Many of the websites and forums I used to go on 10 to 12 years ago are long dead!  So I must give Modelmayhem ... and OMP credit for lasting as long as they have.  I was on a forum for website producers of "non nude" teen modeling sites which included webmasters, photographers as well as the models.  Although there was nothing illegal about minors having their own sites, that industry took a beating because of the moral majority screaming about it leading to child porn.  I'm like "Excuse me, but have you taken a look at OMP?" 

That was around 2005 and OMP ended up having a large sting operation going on picking up illegal activity on theier site in regards to child porn.  Congress could not make it illegal to photograph minors, so they did the next best thing, they tighten the screws on credit card companies to stop providing service to those sites. 

The NN model board is long gone.  Adult sites get CC billing only from CCbill!  There are a few guys who had teen sites that passed muster with courts and laws back then who are still around.  They had set up their own merchant accounts overseas before the  major changes were made.  Solo model sites are all but dead now.  Another reason, go on Facebook and you'll find plenty of "selfie" models of all ages.  ANYONE can be a model or a photographer nowadays! 

The Matthew Ross wrote:
...  its calmed down , friendlier people on these things, & less negative stuff ...

true.

*sigh*

The dark Satyr wrote:

That's not how you make money,
how unAmerican!
:p

Funny thing is that the biggest, most successful American companies ALL pay help. It's only the cheap flash in the pans that don't understand the value of investment.

Justin wrote:

Justin wrote:
Yeah, I think the volunteers do a pretty good job.

And of course, I'd be quite surprised if you agreed. But I thought so before my current vantage point, and it's been reinforced, myself excepted, because 1) this role isn't a "job" and 2) I've been really busy making a living this last month or so and haven't been here all that much.

Since you haven't been here all that much, how can you make a valid assessment of how good or bad a job the volunteers do?

Patrick Walberg wrote:

*fidgets in chair