Jason Felip wrote:
When I ask a model her rate they typically tell me to send them what I am budgeted for and they will let me know. "We can work something out."  It is standard for models to hide what they charge, possibly is the hope of the photographer offering a higher amount? I don't like negotiating.  Tell me a bloody price and if your previous work and overall presence warrant that, then I'll pay.  Is this common or do most of you get a rate up front?

Would you tell a "model" how much you have in your bank account? NO!! I've told models a "fake" budget before and every one of them tried to milk it for every penny. Don't tell them your budget. Tell them what you are paying and let them decide if they are willing to work with you or not.

Jason Felip wrote:
When I ask a model her rate they typically tell me to send them what I am budgeted for and they will let me know. "We can work something out."  It is standard for models to hide what they charge, possibly is the hope of the photographer offering a higher amount? I don't like negotiating.  Tell me a bloody price and if your previous work and overall presence warrant that, then I'll pay.  Is this common or do most of you get a rate up front?

It's very common.  A lot of models do this in hopes of getting more money.  They might be willing to do your job for $50/hr but they are hoping you might offer them more if you make the first move.

- BP Photo - wrote:
There is a rule in negotiations that whoever says a number first loses.

This is bad advice. Every person who is in business for themselves should come up with a rate for their time, based on many important factors. They should be quoting their rates confidently.

How can you market a product without pricing it?

E_R_E_K_A wrote:
. . . . .
Seems if models aren't upfront, they are probably newer and don't know what to say in most cases.

I believe this is often the case.  And when you think about it, how could a brand new model know what to charge, given the wide range of styles, usages, etc. possible.

You could always just stick to agency models, of course.  Then the agency would fix the rate depending on the market, the popularity of the model and the usage, but it would likely be substantially more than the internet model would charge.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Jason Felip wrote:
When I ask a model her rate they typically tell me to send them what I am budgeted for and they will let me know. "We can work something out."  It is standard for models to hide what they charge, possibly is the hope of the photographer offering a higher amount? I don't like negotiating.  Tell me a bloody price and if your previous work and overall presence warrant that, then I'll pay.  Is this common or do most of you get a rate up front?

I ask clients all the time if they have a budget.   It's not "hiding" it's negotiating.

..if you don't like it...well...

You might tell them up front that you don't have a budget or price in mind..OR give a low rate... 2 can play...but then you're negotiating...  LOL

- BP Photo - wrote:
There is a rule in negotiations that whoever says a number first loses.

So the winner is the client (the OP) who gets to set the price of your services?  That is a bit backwards, but maybe next time I buy a car the sales people will let me pick the price.

Just tell them what you are willing to pay them for their look, they will take it or leave it.

E_R_E_K_A wrote:
Seems if models aren't upfront, they are probably newer and don't know what to say in most cases.

That sounds about right, in my experience.  If you model for pay enough to file it as income, then you should have a rate sheet - if only for purposes of a paper trail.

When asked, I never tell a model what I will pay.  I always tell them what I have paid.  It's honest, but doesn't give anyone any unnecessary ammunition. I usually pay between $40 and $120/hr for experienced nude models.  Some of the rate difference is due to having more experience, and some of it is because the photos were much more blue than other shoots.  But I just throw out $40-$120 when asked, and let them come back with a proper offer.

Laura UnBound wrote:
It's not everyone's angle to "milk you for all you've got", Christ y'all don't think very highly of the other half

The problem is, if you ask me what my rates are and the number I say is too high, I'll probably not even get a response saying as much. If I'm willing to negotiate, and I say "$xxx/hour...but it's negotiable" nobody is ever going to actually pay the first price even if they can afford it and were completely prepared to pay something around the first price, they will always try to get a deal because I told them it was a possibility. So what's left is knowing what I'd like to get, but not telling you and rather asking you what your budget is. It's about actually maximizing the number of people I manage to follow through on a booking with, rather than getting umpteen "hey what are your rates?" And never hearing back because they don't know I'm open to negotiate, or constantly being lowballed because I told them I'd negotiate. I'm not trying to hear you offer more money than I was going to ask for, I'm trying to secure solid bookings for something even remotely close to what I believe I'm worth on a regular basis.

While it's true that anyone selling something should know what it's worth, anyone buying something should also know what they're willing to spend before walking into the shop.

+1,000

Mark Reeder Photography wrote:
How about deciding what it is worth for you, as in offer what you are willing to pay. Then they can take it or leave it. Sometimes you just want to move the project forward. Haggling about $ gets annoying quickly.

+1

Laura UnBound wrote:
anyone buying something should also know what they're willing to spend before walking into the shop.

Excellent point.

I offer a session fee rather than an hourly fee because I know what I can afford and the session fee always sounds more than the hourly fee.

Jason Felip wrote:
Tell me a bloody price and if your previous work and overall presence warrant that, then I'll pay.

You will probably end up overpaying or missing out on models who are negotiable.

I recently had a model initially ask for $150/hr but voluntarily retreat to $50/hr when I declined her original rate.

natural beauties of qld wrote:

You will probably end up overpaying or missing out on models who are negotiable.

I recently had a model initially ask for $150/hr but voluntarily retreat to $50/hr when I declined her original rate.

When modeling is your sole income, knowing what you want/what you're worth, and knowing what you need to keep your roof over your head are often two completely different numbers.

natural beauties of qld wrote:

Excellent point.

I offer a session fee rather than an hourly fee because I know what I can afford and the session fee always sounds more than the hourly fee.

If someone told me they wanted to pay x dollars for y hours, I typically tried to negotiate the hours rather than the dollars. Wanting more money doesn't make it magically appear for the other person, oftentimes it's a matter of not existing, rather than them not wanting to give it. What you can control however is the time.

If you want 5 hours for 200 bucks from a model who's rates are typically 100/hour, it's easier to say "how about 2-3 hours" than it is to say "how about 500 bucks". People often pick half-full days just to cover their ass or because they want to shoot 9287459797 concepts. If you haven't gotten a useable image in the first 2 hours you're probably not gonna get it just by still doing the same thing you did 2 hours ago, 4 hours later. And trying to cram 987247982734 concepts into one shoot is going to piss off anyone no matter how well you pay them, so if that's your reason you need to narrow that shit down.

Jason Felip wrote:
When I ask a model her rate they typically tell me to send them what I am budgeted for and they will let me know. "We can work something out."  It is standard for models to hide what they charge, possibly is the hope of the photographer offering a higher amount? I don't like negotiating.  Tell me a bloody price and if your previous work and overall presence warrant that, then I'll pay.  Is this common or do most of you get a rate up front?

Sometimes you have to ask for a budget because the list of variables is too long.

Defining a budget doesn't mean that's what you'll pay, it means the person your discussing costs with can present you with more than one option.

Most people don't realize there's a difference between rate and cost.

Laura UnBound wrote:
It's not everyone's angle to "milk you for all you've got", Christ y'all don't think very highly of the other half

The problem is, if you ask me what my rates are and the number I say is too high, I'll probably not even get a response saying as much. If I'm willing to negotiate, and I say "$xxx/hour...but it's negotiable" nobody is ever going to actually pay the first price even if they can afford it and were completely prepared to pay something around the first price, they will always try to get a deal because I told them it was a possibility. So what's left is knowing what I'd like to get, but not telling you and rather asking you what your budget is. It's about actually maximizing the number of people I manage to follow through on a booking with, rather than getting umpteen "hey what are your rates?" And never hearing back because they don't know I'm open to negotiate, or constantly being lowballed because I told them I'd negotiate. I'm not trying to hear you offer more money than I was going to ask for, I'm trying to secure solid bookings for something even remotely close to what I believe I'm worth on a regular basis.

While it's true that anyone selling something should know what it's worth, anyone buying something should also know what they're willing to spend before walking into the shop. I don't walk into the car dealership without first knowing my budget, if I want a honda I'm not getting talked into a Ferrari. Nobody is writing blank checks.
While it's well and good for you to "confidently throw out the number you want" and have the "take it or leave it" attitude, there are people out there who are willing to negotiate and there's nothing wrong (or lacking confidence) with that either. Not everyone likes negotiation, but not everyone likes losing potential bookings by being too rigid. You can't please everyone and still come out on top

+1

They always know what they're expecting/willing to pay.

I've never had a situation where I asked someone what they're budget was and ended up charging more than I would have.

For me it's always a way to find out how far I'd have to compromise to make something work. There are also cases where certain numbers simply can't be said out loud as a rate or it will come back to bite you in the ass. Full rate + free time is a way around that.

Or when it comes to modeling, maybe you work for a slightly reduced hourly rate and the photographer drives the hour or two to you. But you have to have some target to aim for when telling them what you're willing to do.

Laura UnBound wrote:

When modeling is your sole income, knowing what you want/what you're worth, and knowing what you need to keep your roof over your head are often two completely different numbers.

And when you travel, rates change with the market - travel costs do too. It's not realistic to have just one or two rate options.

Plus, and it's surprising that photographers would over look this, there are probably photographers who you want to shoot with at a reduced rate because it's someone you want more than one or two edited photos from.

E_R_E_K_A wrote:
That's rather odd to me. If someone asks my rate I ask what the shoot is for, being commercial, personal project, etc.

Commercial shoots do have a budget and it's normally higher than my rates. But if it's someone just wanting to hire me for personal projects, I give the rate in first communications. They've been the same for 4-5 years, and I get referrals, so I'm not playing games with people.

Seems if models aren't upfront, they are probably newer and don't know what to say in most cases.

This.

The only exceptions are when the photographer opens comms with a budget.

Actually I have also found when there is a third party budget photographers are often happy to announce it and get you the bigger money even though one has given them cheaper rates.

Jason Felip wrote:
When I ask a model her rate they typically tell me to send them what I am budgeted for and they will let me know. "We can work something out."  It is standard for models to hide what they charge, possibly is the hope of the photographer offering a higher amount? I don't like negotiating.  Tell me a bloody price and if your previous work and overall presence warrant that, then I'll pay.  Is this common or do most of you get a rate up front?

In my experience most models have a rate in their head. Most are reluctant to give it unless you spesifically ask "What are your rates". The most common answer I get is an hourly rate which is way more than I am willing to pay. Alot also say that their rates are negotiable. Which ends up with me having way too many models to choose from. That NEVER happens at home! I set myself a budget for the shoot, and set aside a spesific amount for the model. If that does not cover the models asked rates I politely decline and say it's over budget. Then most models are flexible enough to make it work with my budget. I have had very positive and productive shoots in Fort Lauderdale, and models are easily available. Just had a shoot there in March. The photos are on my port! If you want I can recommend several of them!

Happy shooting!


J.

JohnEnger wrote:
In my experience most models have a rate in their head. Most are reluctant to give it unless you spesifically ask "What are your rates". The most common answer I get is an hourly rate which is way more than I am willing to pay. Alot also say that their rates are negotiable. Which ends up with me having way too many models to choose from. That NEVER happens at home! I set myself a budget for the shoot, and set aside a spesific amount for the model. If that does not cover the models asked rates I politely decline and say it's over budget. Then most models are flexible enough to make it work with my budget. I have had very positive and productive shoots in Fort Lauderdale, and models are easily available. Just had a shoot there in March. The photos are on my port! If you want I can recommend several of them!

Happy shooting!


J.

Uh huh. And you wonder why you get a little "we can work something out" when you say you are in Norway? I work in Norway sometimes. I take it you are not in fact in Norway. How can you blame a model for caution when the first thing they will do before quoting rates is see where you are? They do vary according to travel etc. and in Norway where a beer is $18 a glass rates are naturally higher.

Laura UnBound wrote:
It's not everyone's angle to "milk you for all you've got", Christ y'all don't think very highly of the other half

The problem is, if you ask me what my rates are and the number I say is too high, I'll probably not even get a response saying as much. If I'm willing to negotiate, and I say "$xxx/hour...but it's negotiable" nobody is ever going to actually pay the first price even if they can afford it and were completely prepared to pay something around the first price, they will always try to get a deal because I told them it was a possibility. So what's left is knowing what I'd like to get, but not telling you and rather asking you what your budget is. It's about actually maximizing the number of people I manage to follow through on a booking with, rather than getting umpteen "hey what are your rates?" And never hearing back because they don't know I'm open to negotiate, or constantly being lowballed because I told them I'd negotiate. I'm not trying to hear you offer more money than I was going to ask for, I'm trying to secure solid bookings for something even remotely close to what I believe I'm worth on a regular basis.

While it's true that anyone selling something should know what it's worth, anyone buying something should also know what they're willing to spend before walking into the shop. I don't walk into the car dealership without first knowing my budget, if I want a honda I'm not getting talked into a Ferrari. Nobody is writing blank checks.
While it's well and good for you to "confidently throw out the number you want" and have the "take it or leave it" attitude, there are people out there who are willing to negotiate and there's nothing wrong (or lacking confidence) with that either. Not everyone likes negotiation, but not everyone likes losing potential bookings by being too rigid. You can't please everyone and still come out on top

+1,000

I suspect how much a photographer (or whoever's hiring) is willing to pay a model is less negotiable than how much a model is willing to accept for a job (depending, of course. Eliza would disagree). If this is true, what the hell is wrong with asking the photographer what the budget is? Generally the model has more to lose: So, maybe you have to pay $10 more/hour than you would've otherwise if you're the first to make an offer. If *she* highballs herself, she'll lose the whole gig, unless you actually respond with a lower counter-offer (which has virtually never happened to me--no response is a response, etc.).

I don't think an experienced model necessarily always "knows what (s)he's worth" --some photographers offer more money than others. (S)he's worth more to one photographer than another, etc. It depends on so many things.

altSWANK wrote:
If I contact a model for a paid shoot and she says "my rates are X per hour", I either say yes or I say no.  If I counter with what rate I think is fair/ am willing to pay, some models (not all) will ask..."what is your budget".

Typically, when a model asks what your budget is that means they want to see the total amount of $$ you'd be willing to spend on the entire shoot.  And, they'll proceed to offer you X amount of hours.  Usually it's not in the photographers best interest because they are still getting the rate they want, just giving you less time. 

My philosophy: before shooting, settle on a $$ number in your mind that you can sleep with.  If I negotiate a little less, fine.  If I pay the number I can sleep with, then no "buyer's remorse".   

It depends on how you define the photographer's best interest. The alternative is the model saying no.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Uh huh. And you wonder why you get a little "we can work something out" when you say you are in Norway? I work in Norway sometimes. I take it you are not in fact in Norway. How can you blame a model for caution when the first thing they will do before quoting rates is see where you are? They do vary according to travel etc. and in Norway where a beer is $18 a glass rates are naturally higher.

Uh? I travel to the US about 2-3 times a year...


J.

Jason Felip wrote:
I don't like negotiating.

If I were your best friend and we were out for a beer and you pulled out your smart phone and showed me this thread and I read all these fine responses and thought about it for a minute. I would then encourage you to work on changing your attitude.

Why?

Simple. You're not going to be able to change the world.

Toto Photo wrote:
I would then encourage you to work on changing your attitude.

Why?

Simple. You're not going to be able to change the world.

The "I can't change the world so why bother" attitude is very popular, but I don't know how helpful it is.  I have always been the type of person who see's things that can't be done and makes them happen, or fail and have fun trying.  There is nothing wrong with me wanting to have an upfront price, like with a modeling agency.  That is simple.  If you were my best friend, I would appreciate you input though and take a second to see if my attitude is wrong.