Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
I've never really had a meeting work out or be worth while that didn't involve a complex project - and then the meeting was with the clients/producers and not the model anyway.

Even with clients, there is nothing more really to see that I don't have online already and a easy phone call can cover all the normal questions. Now, keep in mind I don't shoot high dollar stuff like weddings or seniors, or sell prints, and I have a day gig.

I would never do one for a normal test shoot.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

It's one thing for a client or mor likely an art director, but not a model and not for a simple test.  Now I have had a few brainstorming sessions with models over ideas we had, but those were models I have worked with before and usually a phone call is fine.

lynne g wrote:
Firstly, I do this as a hobby. I'd Imagine people who pose as a primary source of income might look at this differently... I mean to them meeting could be more like an "interview".

I use to have meetings with potential new models before the internet.  Gave me a chance to see what they looked like and for me to show some of my work.  Now, modeling sites on the internet has greatly reduced that need.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Not me -- here's my thinking:

...  I tend to work with experienced models (and yes, that means paying them,
     because my photography brings in revenue, and I like to share the wealth).

...  I like to work with models multiple times, assuming of course that we have
     the appropriate amount of chemistry.

...  I just figure that the first sitting with a new-to-me model is a "Get Acquainted"
     session.  That's better than a pre-sitting coffee "interview". 

...  I won't invest a lot of money and/or effort in a session with a new model.

Look -- I should have the skills to make good pictures with any willing model. 



While we are on it, I would never, never, never offer a meal afterwards as a part of a model's compensation.  You want to work with professional models, treat them as professionals.

I took a professional model to lunch.  We had a long day and she said that she was hungry.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
While we are on it, I would never, never, never offer a meal afterwards as a part of a model's compensation.  You want to work with professional models, treat them as professionals.

I've done plenty of jobs where after the shoot the client takes us out to dinner or drinks, whole team. I've also have drinks all the time with one of my makeup artists, and we would be more than happy to bring the model as long as well.

Only reason it dosent happen more is we all have our own lives and aren't always friends, but nothing wrong with going out for food or drinks after a shoot.





Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

lynne g wrote:
But meeting and not shooting, for someone who does not do this professionally, just seems like too much to me.

If it seems like too much for you, you probably shouldn’t do it. There are as many good arguments for pre-shoot meetings as there are equally good points against them, many of which have been listed in this thread and the many others that precede it.

Work with people whose talent, requirements, budget, and sensibilities match your own. Leave the others to their own devices. It’s not rocket surgery.

a raw muse wrote:
It's completely your call.

If the other person requires a pre-shoot meeting, and that is not feasible to you, then you both can find other people to work with.

Yeah, this. Now when are you coming back down so we can "go for coffee"?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
While we are on it, I would never, never, never offer a meal afterwards as a part of a model's compensation.  You want to work with professional models, treat them as professionals.

I have done this with virtually everyone I've ever worked with.  Usually there's a bunch of people, and if it's a large shoot, I'll often pop a bottle of Champagne after as well. 

Whether a simple trade, or a larger commercial shoot, there was always some type of wrap dinner/party.  I have no idea why you would see this as non-professional.  Only on this website does "professional" equate to some weird form of voyeurism where photographers and models never interact unless they are actively shooting.

What about makeup artists or stylists?  Are you allowed to socialize with them?  I don't know how things are everywhere, nor do I claim to, but where I am this is a HIGHLY social business.  Who you know, and who you're friends with, means as much if not more than the work you produce (assuming everyone in the pool is already producing quality work).

It's possible to have dinner with a woman without acting like a creep or making her feel uncomfortable.

Loki Studio wrote:
Creating work good enough to go into my portfolio requires a mutual investment of planing, talent, and time. If you can't be bothered, then neither will I.

Yes, which is why models need to go over a photographers body of work to make sure the extra hoop jumping is worth it.





Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Looknsee Photography wrote:
While we are on it, I would never, never, never offer a meal afterwards as a part of a model's compensation.  You want to work with professional models, treat them as professionals.

You're a big meanie, you won't even feed your models lol

After a 7-8 hour shoot (or even half way through a shoot) the first thing on my mind is food because I'm starving, and I only think it's polite to offer the model, assistant, MUA or whoever else was at the shoot would they like something to eat as well.

It's got nothing to do with professionalism, it's got to do with common courtesy, because it would be pretty rude and selfish of me to buy something to eat and not ask them if they would like something as well.

But on to the subject of going for coffee before a shoot, when I have advertised for people to model for me, I have been asked on occasion to meet up for coffee to discuss the shoot in detail.

Personally I do not go to have coffee with models because I pay for all my shoots and they are explained in detail through emails, so I really do not see the point in meeting beforehand.

Although I can understand that some people may feel a little uneasy about doing a shoot with me because they haven't met me before, but they only have to check my MM page and my Facebook to find out stuff about me to see I'm not some weirdo. (although some of my friends might disagree with that, but they're not important, so they don't count)

But I also pick up and drop off everyone that models for me as well (unless they are under 16), so that might make people a little bit apprehensive, but I remind them that all of the models on my Port on MM have been picked up by me and they are all still alive....although not all of them have enjoyed my music, but what the hell it's my car and I like 80s music. 

lynne g wrote:
Firstly, I do this as a hobby. I'd Imagine people who pose as a primary source of income might look at this differently... I mean to them meeting could be more like an "interview".

Anywho, I find this has happened several times. I'll message with a photog and then instead of wanting to set up a shoot he will suggest we get together for coffee to "discuss the shoot"... I'm busy. I dunno. It just seems like a huge waste of time to me? Can't we email/chat on the phone about it to exchange ideas? What's up with this? Thoughts? Open to people changing my mind! I don't have a problem sending someone a selfie if they want to see a more recent image. But meeting and not shooting, for someone who does not do this professionally, just seems like too much to me.

I agree with this. I don't do this as a career. I find a few concise emails or even a phone call if you'd really like will sum up what we want to shoot, no problem.
Even professionally, unless it's a big project that will take a LOT of planning or quite a few people, I don't see a point.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
While we are on it, I would never, never, never offer a meal afterwards as a part of a model's compensation.  You want to work with professional models, treat them as professionals.

MR J Photography wrote:
You're a big meanie, you won't even feed your models lol   

To be clear, I feed models plenty during the session, but when they are off the clock, they are off the clock. 

Looknsee Photography wrote:
While we are on it, I would never, never, never offer a meal afterwards as a part of a model's compensation.  You want to work with professional models, treat them as professionals.

I think the key words here are "as a part of a model's compensation".

If you want to treat the model to a meal afterward by all means offer to do so...  but thinking that you can then deduct the price of the meal from her hourly rate is BS (unless of course you are going to include the time spent at the meal as part of her workday!)

lynne g wrote:
Firstly, I do this as a hobby. I'd Imagine people who pose as a primary source of income might look at this differently... I mean to them meeting could be more like an "interview".

Anywho, I find this has happened several times. I'll message with a photog and then instead of wanting to set up a shoot he will suggest we get together for coffee to "discuss the shoot"... I'm busy. I dunno. It just seems like a huge waste of time to me? Can't we email/chat on the phone about it to exchange ideas? What's up with this? Thoughts? Open to people changing my mind! I don't have a problem sending someone a selfie if they want to see a more recent image. But meeting and not shooting, for someone who does not do this professionally, just seems like too much to me.

My oy thing is phone conference. Coffee becomes too personal. I usually do coffee with designers and clients. Maybe Hair if they have a big project idea.

Other than that phone/text/email should suffice.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
While we are on it, I would never, never, never offer a meal afterwards as a part of a model's compensation.  You want to work with professional models, treat them as professionals.

Perhaps the art nude world is different, but in the commercial and glamour worlds real personal contact and socializing beats the internet any day. I have meals and socialize with clients, stylists, and talent every week-they are my friends.  Smart creatives know that personal contact and direct introductions or referrals will get them the gig better than most castings or auditions. 

Its not that a meal is "compensation", but personal socializing is just the way that real success happens all over the world in many industries.  My clients and I pay for meals and entertainment etc for the whole team often. Its hardly unprofessional, and if anything its a critical path to commercial success.

Rays Fine Art wrote:
It's very much a matter of different strokes for different folks.  Personally, I prefer face-to-face planning meetings over emails or phone calls, wherever practical, for a number of reasons, depending on the situation:
1- Many models, especially newbies, take all the terror stories to heart and are afraid to shoot in an in-home studio like mine, especially if the photographer is old, as I am.  Meeting first in a public, safe place goes a long way to establishing trust and comfort.
2- My experience has been that models I've met with face-to-face almost never flake, and if they do, I'd rather have them do so on a meet, where I'm in a part of town in which I have other business to transact and have not bothered with setting up the studio.
3- I shoot in a lot of styles, often involving some measure of nudity and some, such as body painting or shibari, requiring some level of touching and I find that it is easier to develop a comfort level between us in a sit down meeting and to establish comfortable, workable boundaries specific to the individual project once we've done so.
4- It's not at all unusual for a model to look very different from her pictures.  Meeting in person reassures me that "What you see is what you get."
5- On rare occasions, but often enough to warrant caution, I've had models exhibit  what can only be called "anti-social tendencies" such as obvious inebriation, drug use, carrying weapons, bringing along a pugnacious "manager", etc. at meetings.  Much better IMHO to tell them "No thanks" in a public place without telling them where I live.
6- No matter how hard we try, we tend to leave out important facts when conversing either over the telephone or via email compared with the direct back-and-forth of an in person meeting where one can read not only words but inflections and facial expressions as well.  It makes for more complete and therefore more reliable communication.
7- Admittedly, I'm conveniently located for the South Bronx, Close-in Brooklyn and Queens and all of Manhattan.  It's a lot easier for me to find a mutually convenient meeting place than it is for most people.
8- Finally, it just seems to me that if a model is not sufficiently committed to a shoot to attend a face-to-face meeting, then she's likely to not be sufficiently committed to put forth her best efforts in the shoot either.

That's not to say that I never settle for phone or email discussions.  There certainly are times, such as when travelling or when either of us would have to face not only extra expenditures of time but of things like bridge tolls, etc. when it's just not practical to have a face-to-face meeting.  It's just that whenever possible, I find a face-to-face meeting to be well worth the time.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Pretty much what he said.  If I were using agencies that would be different but mostly I shoot amateur models from the Internet.  Like Ray I have on two occasions said no thank you after the meeting.

I occasionally work with experienced (i.e., I can check their references) models and I don't worry then.  Otherwise no ID, no meeting, no shoot.

lynne g wrote:
I hear what a few have said above, about socialization. I do socialize. I'm a chatter. And if a photog and I got along well, and with several I have, I'd be open to chat art or whatever topic socially. I guess the way I look at it is it's a social thing, coffee. And if I was interested in "working" with artists, even in a hobbiest capacity, I'd be on a social network? Friendfinder.com? Otherwise let's socialize after we work if we get on well. I do respect all the opinions and do appreciate the feedback though

I can tell you that I always have felt more comfortable when shooting somebody I already met in person before than shooting people whom I met first right there at the shoot. Admittedly this is my issue but I still do not think it is worth the trouble of asking for a pre-shoot meeting, I can break the ice in five minutes.

But having worked with a handful of hobbyist models and photographers with little experience I can tell you that a lot of guys need more time to get comfortable. Some inexperienced photographers also need to verbalize what is going to happen during the shoot in order to carry on accordingly.

So I think there is a need for certain social interaction prior to the shoot. Not as in "let's be friends and see if we get along well enough to make pictures together" but as in "I am still developing my skills and therefore I need more preparation time with you than an experienced shooter".

For someone like me, five minutes of social introduction and interaction is enough, but I can see how others might need more time.

AgX wrote:
Yeah, this. Now when are you coming back down so we can "go for coffee"?

Come up to the woods!