Photographer
SoCal Portraits
Posts: 49
Ocala, Florida, US
I've seen a number of casting calls lately (both models and photographers) asking for a TF shoot, however, they just describe what they want everyone to do for them. There's no mention of what they are willing to do to actually have a valid trade.
TF is just that, a trade. If I do something for you, what are you going to do for me?
If those submitting a casting call outlines what the other person is getting out of the shoot then perhaps the casting would be better received.
End of vent.
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
SoCal Portraits wrote:
I've seen a number of casting calls lately (both models and photographers) asking for a TF shoot, however, they just describe what they want everyone to do for them. There's no mention of what they are willing to do to actually have a valid trade.
TF is just that, a trade. If I do something for you, what are you going to do for me?
If those submitting a casting call outlines what the other person is getting out of the shoot then perhaps the casting would be better received.
End of vent. Then you don't understand testing.
I have an idea and I retouch
I need a photographer's skill - he/she gets the idea/retouching/the model ability and look and A make up artist's experience and realization of that idea
I need a model's ability and look - she gets ....
A make up artist's experience and realization of that idea - she/he gets...
See how it goes?
Hair Stylist
Julia Savitskaya
Posts: 10
Newport Beach, California, US
Agreed and everyone in the end should get copies of their work. Experience also a thing that comes with this 
Model
Michelle Genevieve
Posts: 1140
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US
Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Then you don't understand testing. I think the OP does understand testing. The issue is about trade.
If I'm testing then I assume the only thing I'm getting out of this is the OPPORTUNITY to see if I might be right for a future gig. That's all. No prints or files, no money, nothing except "Have a nice day, we'll call you if we want you." Oh, and the experience of having tested. Period, end of transaction.
TF is collaborative and not a one-way deal. If the person posting a casting is asking for TF she needs to bring something to the table. If not, she's looking for a handout.
Photographer
Marin Photo NYC
Posts: 7348
New York, New York, US
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
I think the OP does understand testing. The issue is about trade.
If I'm testing then I assume the only thing I'm getting out of this is the OPPORTUNITY to see if I might be right for a future gig. That's all. No prints or files, no money, nothing except "Have a nice day, we'll call you if we want you." Oh, and the experience of having tested. Period, end of transaction.
TF is collaborative and not a one-way deal. If the person posting a casting is asking for TF she needs to bring something to the table. If not, she's looking for a handout. You don't understand testing either.
It's the same thing but Testing is just for portfolio building. Agencies use this term most often as opposed to trade.
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
I think the OP does understand testing. The issue is about trade.
If I'm testing then I assume the only thing I'm getting out of this is the OPPORTUNITY to see if I might be right for a future gig. That's all. No prints or files, no money, nothing except "Have a nice day, we'll call you if we want you." Oh, and the experience of having tested. Period, end of transaction.
TF is collaborative and not a one-way deal. If the person posting a casting is asking for TF she needs to bring something to the table. If not, she's looking for a handout. You don't understand testing either.
TF is an Internet terminology for testing. Same thing.
People make up their own rules, but it's basically always a collaboration between creatives to get experience and images for portfolio use.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
I think the OP does understand testing. The issue is about trade.
If I'm testing then I assume the only thing I'm getting out of this is the OPPORTUNITY to see if I might be right for a future gig. That's all. No prints or files, no money, nothing except "Have a nice day, we'll call you if we want you." Oh, and the experience of having tested. Period, end of transaction.
TF is collaborative and not a one-way deal. If the person posting a casting is asking for TF she needs to bring something to the table. If not, she's looking for a handout. That isn't what most people call testing. Normally a test is when a new model is being tested in front of the camera and possibly building a portfolio. The term has been extended to more established creatives building or updating their portfolios as well, which makes perfect sense they would use the term they first used when they were new.
So while a new model testing may or may not produce useable images it is generally believed it will with more experienced creatives. The Internet attached the term TFP to the same process, but that is really an Internet term only.
Model
Isis22
Posts: 3557
Muncie, Indiana, US
If you don't like the Casting then move on to one you do like that will benefit you.
Photographer
RTE Photography
Posts: 1511
NORTH HOLLYWOOD, California, US
One thing you should do is credit the models whose pictures you use in your portfolio.
Photographer
Marin Photo NYC
Posts: 7348
New York, New York, US
A casting call is what Michelle is referring to but here casting calls are used for both. A casting is normally not a test or a trade it's like a try-out to see if you get a part or a job.
Photographer
Llobet Photography
Posts: 4915
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Sometimes what models want for their portfolios is what I want for mine.
We have a match so we test.
Sometimes models want one thing and I want another. We come to an agreement and we trade.
Easy, peasy.
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2266
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
testing and trade are in the basis the same...just testing is for agencies, and have stricter rules, more natural looks for example.. TFP....or trade. Ideally Trade is an exchange of Talents...that also means that the qualities(or specifics) should match, be in proper balance....else it needs to be brought again in balance by either pay or other means (expenses, future network etc) in the end it's about mutual portfolio work... Herman www.hermanvangestel.com
Model
Michelle Genevieve
Posts: 1140
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US
Those of you who are telling me that I don't understand may be right, but I think I'm giving an easy out to people who advertise a test rather than those who advertise TF.
Regardless of whether TF is strictly an MM term or not, the "F" is what matters. It's Time For . . . something. And that something has to be delivered or it's a one-way deal, and therefore not TF Anything.
If I say that I'm willing to test and receive nothing in return (except the hope that I might actually be testing for a possibility of future employment) then anyone who actually delivers anything to me as a result of the test is exceeding my expectations. Yay!
And FWIW, we have here on MM a category for Unpaid Test. No biggie! Just click the dang little circle and we're all on the same page. But don't call it TF when it's only begging for a handout.
If you wanna test me, just say so and we'll shoot. If you wanna play silly word games then good luck.
And contrary to what the OP said, I mostly see this one-way TF racket from models who need images and don't want to actually invest money with a photographer whose work will add something to their portfolios.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
When I see a TF casting, I assume the TF means a model provides a modeling service in return for images. I've never thought that had to be spelled out but was implied in TF.
Obviously, once the two parties connect, they should discuss more detailed aspects such as the number of images, time frame, etc. I can see where such details may not be provided in the original casting.
I also assume that interested parties will look at the other person's portfolio to see if their talents are worth trading for.
Photographer
SoCal Portraits
Posts: 49
Ocala, Florida, US
Isis22 wrote:
If you don't like the Casting then move on to one you do like that will benefit you. Another of the "move on" contributions that brings nothing to the table. It had absolutely nothing about whether or not I'm interested in the casting, it's about what the person posting the casting is willing to do for the other parties when they are requesting a trade shoot.
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5620
London, England, United Kingdom
SoCal Portraits wrote:
I've seen a number of casting calls lately (both models and photographers) asking for a TF shoot, however, they just describe what they want everyone to do for them. There's no mention of what they are willing to do to actually have a valid trade.
TF is just that, a trade. If I do something for you, what are you going to do for me?
If those submitting a casting call outlines what the other person is getting out of the shoot then perhaps the casting would be better received.
End of vent. Even if that were always the case (it isn't), it's your job to tell other people what you want from them, they aren't psychic.
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Those of you who are telling me that I don't understand may be right, but I think I'm giving an easy out to people who advertise a test rather than those who advertise TF.
Regardless of whether TF is strictly an MM term or not, the "F" is what matters. It's Time For . . . something. And that something has to be delivered or it's a one-way deal, and therefore not TF Anything.
If I say that I'm willing to test and receive nothing in return (except the hope that I might actually be testing for a possibility of future employment) then anyone who actually delivers anything to me as a result of the test is exceeding my expectations. Yay!
And FWIW, we have here on MM a category for Unpaid Test. No biggie! Just click the dang little circle and we're all on the same page. But don't call it TF when it's only begging for a handout.
If you wanna test me, just say so and we'll shoot. If you wanna play silly word games then good luck.
And contrary to what the OP said, I mostly see this one-way TF racket from models who need images and don't want to actually invest money with a photographer whose work will add something to their portfolios. It's not silly word games jus because you don't know the term.
What you think "testing" is, is not so. So intead of fighting people telling you something you don't know, you could learn so you don't argue with someone who can actually give you an opportunity to work.
Being catty when you're wrong just looks silly
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
SoCal Portraits wrote:
I've seen a number of casting calls lately (both models and photographers) asking for a TF shoot, however, they just describe what they want everyone to do for them. There's no mention of what they are willing to do to actually have a valid trade.
TF is just that, a trade. If I do something for you, what are you going to do for me?
If those submitting a casting call outlines what the other person is getting out of the shoot then perhaps the casting would be better received.
End of vent. If this gets that reaction from you then how in the world are you able to manage client interactions?
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
Model
Victoria Ellis
Posts: 129
San Diego, California, US
Well it's not a handout if the photographer is excited to work with the individual model. Both parties should benefit. If you don't think a model has anything to offer, don't work with her.
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Tori Alice wrote:
Well it's not a handout if the photographer is excited to work with the individual model. Both parties should benefit. If you don't think a model has anything to offer, don't work with her. Bingo!
Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com
Model
Amber Dawn - Indiana
Posts: 6255
Salem, Indiana, US
Then you go to the next casting to see ifr its something you want in your port if not go to the next. That's how it works. People post castings for what they want and for what they are offering.
Like if I post I'm seeking glamor type images then I am seeking and offering that type of trade.
Photographer
Laura Elizabeth Photo
Posts: 2253
Rochester, New York, US
SoCal Portraits wrote:
Another of the "move on" contributions that brings nothing to the table. It had absolutely nothing about whether or not I'm interested in the casting, it's about what the person posting the casting is willing to do for the other parties when they are requesting a trade shoot. Your original post brought nothing to the table, it was a rant. What did you expect people to just justify your ranting? Everyone works for trade occasionally. Either you're interested in what someone else is offering or you're not, either work with them or move on.
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
SoCal Portraits wrote:
Another of the "move on" contributions that brings nothing to the table. It had absolutely nothing about whether or not I'm interested in the casting, it's about what the person posting the casting is willing to do for the other parties when they are requesting a trade shoot. Why do you care if you're not interested in the first place?
People are so caught up in what other people are doing. If it's not harming you in any way other than sure annoyance then why do you care?
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 7504
New York, New York, US
D'ja ever notice how often dictionaries will list different definitions for the same word, depending on the usage or the locale? That's because nobody really knows what anything means except in the way it's used by the speaker and understood by the hearer. So why don't we all play nice and not be judgmental about words? That way we can work on understanding each other which is far more productive.
FWIW, I think of testing as being the same thing as auditioning, essentially applying for a job (or at least the possibility of one). I don't expect anything else out of it, but unless it is a casting call as such, I always ask if it will be possible a print or a file or two. If there is any expectation of usage beyond that, such as a public portfolio or a project, then I use the term "TF" and expect copies and when I'm the photographer I expect to give them. Either way, it pays to take the time to make sure that we're both on the same page. Doesn't take a lot of time and prevents problems down the road.
All IMHO as always, of course.
Photographer
Eyesso
Posts: 1218
Orlando, Florida, US
Well....there are some photographers out there who have their sh!t together, like "TEAMS" under their wing....hair, make up, studio access, understudies.....I am NOT one of those, so I just safely assume they are looking for somebody else. I notice a pattern though.... Photographers often make the mistake of spending lots of money on better gear, more megapixels, an array of fancy lenses, etc. in hopes of taking better pictures. Models similarly make the mistake of requesting hair, make up, stylists, etc. in hopes of somehow magnifying their hidden beauty. But....less is more. Zero preparation and a pinhole camera will do just fine. 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Failing to plan is planning to fail...
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
I thought the Testing vs Trade vs TFP argument had been settled in several million previous threads?
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 3779
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
RTE Photography wrote:
One thing you should do is credit the models whose pictures you use in your portfolio. That's not necessary and many models don't credit photographers. Someone will have to explain the benefit of crediting models, especially the ones you pay
Photographer
IMAGINERIES
Posts: 2048
New York, New York, US
On a couple of occasions I took pictures the model think she need for a comp card and return, equal time for me to experiment with images that I am interested in taking..... But I am not a pro.
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Rays Fine Art wrote:
D'ja ever notice how often dictionaries will list different definitions for the same word, depending on the usage or the locale? That's because nobody really knows what anything means except in the way it's used by the speaker and understood by the hearer. So why don't we all play nice and not be judgmental about words? That way we can work on understanding each other which is far more productive.
FWIW, I think of testing as being the same thing as auditioning, essentially applying for a job (or at least the possibility of one). I don't expect anything else out of it, but unless it is a casting call as such, I always ask if it will be possible a print or a file or two. If there is any expectation of usage beyond that, such as a public portfolio or a project, then I use the term "TF" and expect copies and when I'm the photographer I expect to give them. Either way, it pays to take the time to make sure that we're both on the same page. Doesn't take a lot of time and prevents problems down the road.
All IMHO as always, of course. But that's not the way the word is used broadly
Yes, people can have their own definitions but in the context of photography a test is not an audition - or yes it kind of is, because you will call again people who performed well in the test, but even if they didn't, everyone got pictures.
But it doesn't matter because it wouldn't hurt a person wanting to model to learn the actual meaning of the word
Retoucher
Natalia_Taffarel
Posts: 7665
Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina
AJScalzitti wrote:
Failing to plan is planning to fail... I like this
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Abbitt Photography wrote:
When I see a TF casting, I assume the TF means a model provides a modeling service in return for images. I've never thought that had to be spelled out but was implied in TF.
Obviously, once the two parties connect, they should discuss more detailed aspects such as the number of images, time frame, etc. I can see where such details may not be provided in the original casting.
I also assume that interested parties will look at the other person's portfolio to see if their talents are worth trading for. TF has changed it's meaning, model wants;
Pic's of the baby.
Wedding.
Party.
Boy friend.
Events.
It's all about me.... the model.
Photographer
DELETED-ACCOUNT_
Posts: 10303
Los Angeles, California, US
SoCal Portraits wrote:
I've seen a number of casting calls lately (both models and photographers) asking for a TF shoot, however, they just describe what they want everyone to do for them. There's no mention of what they are willing to do to actually have a valid trade. Sounds about right to me...they are looking for someone who is interested in their concept. IF person A wants to shoot arbitrary concept "X", and person B is interested....well that's where your valid trade comes in. It's no different than when I email an agency and say "Hey, I want to shoot some boho stuff at a field of tall grass, got anyone who'd be a good fit?". The trade is: I need a model, and they find a model who could use that for their portfolio...ie. we both benefit.
SoCal Portraits wrote:
TF is just that, a trade. If I do something for you, what are you going to do for me? You only get the short end of the stick if you're agreeing to shoot things that don't benefit you. Or you could just be proactive and say "Hey, I can do what you want in exchange for you doing this for me".
SoCal Portraits wrote:
If those submitting a casting call outlines what the other person is getting out of the shoot then perhaps the casting would be better received.
End of vent. It's not really necessary since most people either A) respond to castings for projects that interest them (ie. if you don't shoot beauty...you'd probably want to avoid responding to a TF casting for a beauty shoot), or B) know enough to figure it's not terribly difficult to just ask if the other party will shoot a concept of theirs in exchange.
I think you're making this far more difficult than it need be.
Hair Stylist
rick lesser
Posts: 1116
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Don't mind testing/tfp with people I have worked with in the past. Sometimes I will make an exception and work with someone I don't know on a trade. However, what bothers me is when the casting for trade/tfp calls for a full on production. I have seen multi locations, numerous models, lots of wardrobe changes, with hair and makeup to match asked for. With that much of a production, through us something. When I did these, a lot of the time I couldn't even use any of the images. If I were lucky to get them at all. I laugh at what is being asked of people sometimes when I read the casting. I wounder if they ever get the shoots done at all? A good question to ask would be when you post these castings with unrealistic expectations of the talent and crew, do you get what your looking for in the end? R-
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
What do you get? Well you get to shoot that idea with that model. If it doesnt suit you, then move on. Someone WILL see that casting and think it could equally benefit them, and they do their trade.
Even if a model outlined 20 pages of what you "get" from working with them, if none of what they offer is actually something you want/need what good has it done?
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
~*rants don't belong in the industry fora*~
Photographer
IrisSwope
Posts: 14857
Dallas, Texas, US
SoCal Portraits wrote:
I've seen a number of casting calls lately (both models and photographers) asking for a TF shoot, however, they just describe what they want everyone to do for them. There's no mention of what they are willing to do to actually have a valid trade.
TF is just that, a trade. If I do something for you, what are you going to do for me?
If those submitting a casting call outlines what the other person is getting out of the shoot then perhaps the casting would be better received.
End of vent. They're not asking you to do anything. They're asking someone who's interested to do it. If that's not you, then they're not asking you.
Photographer
TouchofEleganceStudios
Posts: 5480
Vallejo, California, US
Isis22 wrote:
If you don't like the Casting then move on to one you do like that will benefit you. Actually I agree, this is the best answer.
Not all TF is fair to both parties. A very experienced photographer might connect with a model who even though her port says experienced does not understand how to pose, can't work the camera, has limited expression experience. She really does not bring that much to the table. And of course it can be the other way.
You as the person looking or checking out casting calls need to decide for yourself whether you are good with it or not.
Kinda like contacting a model for a shoot and she responds she does paid work only, wants all the images in RAW and at least 20 of them fully edited to her satisfaction. The way I see is if there are photographers willing to give her what she wants then that is fine.
Model
Payton Hailey
Posts: 939
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
Those of you who are telling me that I don't understand may be right, but I think I'm giving an easy out to people who advertise a test rather than those who advertise TF.
Regardless of whether TF is strictly an MM term or not, the "F" is what matters. It's Time For . . . something. And that something has to be delivered or it's a one-way deal, and therefore not TF Anything.
If I say that I'm willing to test and receive nothing in return (except the hope that I might actually be testing for a possibility of future employment) then anyone who actually delivers anything to me as a result of the test is exceeding my expectations. Yay!
And FWIW, we have here on MM a category for Unpaid Test. No biggie! Just click the dang little circle and we're all on the same page. But don't call it TF when it's only begging for a handout.
If you wanna test me, just say so and we'll shoot. If you wanna play silly word games then good luck.
And contrary to what the OP said, I mostly see this one-way TF racket from models who need images and don't want to actually invest money with a photographer whose work will add something to their portfolios. TF isnt for every photographer but, Who knows? Maybe working with the model who wants TF could add something to YOUR portfolio.
Mutual benefit and great photos without anyone reaching into their pocket.
Photographer
Jay Leavitt
Posts: 6745
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
SoCal Portraits wrote:
Another of the "move on" contributions that brings nothing to the table. It had absolutely nothing about whether or not I'm interested in the casting, it's about what the person posting the casting is willing to do for the other parties when they are requesting a trade shoot. They're willing to shoot a particular style.
Other people wanting to find a model to shoot that style will trade with them.
Where's the problem?
|
