Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
I'm thinking about creating some harsh lighting setups with my strobes. I have detachable reflectors -- indeed, you have to take off the reflector to use the soft boxes.
I'm thinking about taking one of the small reflectors, scuffing you the reflective surfaces, and spray painting them matte black. I'm hoping to create really sharp edged shadows.
Anyone done this before? Is it worth the bother (and the destruction of a reflector)?
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Not exactly, but I have seen DIY Hardbox modifiers (google Profoto Hardbox to see what I'm talking about). I think our own Mortonovich made one out of a coffee can and painted it black. I would try something along that route, but I would probably try to find a tube that was a bit longer. Maybe fabricate something out of larger PVC pipe. https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st14565977 For sharper results, I'd go with a fresnel lens.
Photographer
J E W E T T
Posts: 2545
al-Marsā, Tunis, Tunisia
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
surfaces, and spray painting them matte black. I'm hoping to create really sharp edged shadows. Wait. Are you talking about the circular shadow of the light spill? Or shadow of the model onto a wall?
The model is just getting direct rays from the flash, same as if it were bare.
The short, wide snoot you are making just puts a circle of light around the whole thing.
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Not exactly, but I have seen DIY Hardbox modifiers (google Profoto Hardbox to see what I'm talking about).
I think our own Mortonovich made one out of a coffee can and painted it black. I would try something along that route, but I would probably try to find a tube that was a bit longer. Maybe fabricate something out of larger PVC pipe.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st14565977
For sharper results, I'd go with a fresnel lens. Yep, that was me. Small trash can, actually. And it worked AWESOME. I made it for Mark Sacro. The thing fugging rocks and I think he still uses it a bunch.
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
For really sharp DIY shadows of the model, I'd try leaving the reflector silver but closing its mouth with a black cover, and making a small-ish diffusion-covered hole in that mouth.
You'll probably lose a lot of light so it would help to start with a bright one.
---
or diffusion over a small-mouthed snoot.
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
Mortonovich wrote:
Yep, that was me. Small trash can, actually. And it worked AWESOME. I made it for Mark Sacro. The thing fugging rocks and I think he still uses it a bunch. How are the shadow edges sharper than using a bare bulb?
Filmmaker
Mr_Sable
Posts: 83
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Why wouldn't you just line it with black foil and save your gear?
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 3757
Belmont, California, US
Mr_Sable wrote:
Why wouldn't you just line it with black foil and save your gear? Yep, CineFoil I think it is called.
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
It also happens that a Mole Richardson 1K baby solarspot type 407 Fresnel lens fits nicely into the mouth of a PCB 7" reflector.
No spotting or flooding, but if you like what you get...
Filmmaker
Mr_Sable
Posts: 83
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
It's pricey, but you can get it at any production house and it has a great many uses - You can bend scoops and barn door extensions and such with it.
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
Mr_Sable wrote:
It's pricey But it's quite reusable.
Photographer
Mikey McMichaels
Posts: 3356
New York, New York, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
I'm thinking about creating some harsh lighting setups with my strobes. I have detachable reflectors -- indeed, you have to take off the reflector to use the soft boxes.
I'm thinking about taking one of the small reflectors, scuffing you the reflective surfaces, and spray painting them matte black. I'm hoping to create really sharp edged shadows.
Anyone done this before? Is it worth the bother (and the destruction of a reflector)? I'm guessing most people will consider this a pointless idea and those who have tired it will simply have different taste than you - meaning you should definitely try it because you're really not going to know if it's worth it any other way.
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Mr_Sable wrote:
It's pricey NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
But it's quite reusable. Yep. If you think of it as black tin foil you'll lose your mind over the cost.
If you think of it as a reusable, multifunction light shaping tool that can be converted into a flag, a gobo, a set of barn doors, a cooky and a snoot, it becomes a bargain...
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Mortonovich wrote:
Yep, that was me. Small trash can, actually. And it worked AWESOME. I made it for Mark Sacro. The thing fugging rocks and I think he still uses it a bunch. NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
How are the shadow edges sharper than using a bare bulb? Looking at the photos, I'm not sure if they are.
If I were building it, I'd want a silver parabolic reflector behind the light.
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Mr_Sable wrote:
Why wouldn't you just line it with black foil and save your gear? Toto Photo wrote:
Yep, CineFoil I think it is called. Another brand is called BlackWrap. Same stuff.
Photographer
Llobet Photography
Posts: 4915
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
I've done this. No need to destroy a reflector at all. I have PCBuff Einsteins and I have a tin can of "Pepperidge Farm, Pirouette, rolled wafers". It locks in nicely with into the Einstein. It's about 10cm in diameter (4 inches) by 18cm long (7 inches). You can use any can that fits your lights. Just cut out the bottom with a can opener.  I lined the inside with black cinefoil to kill reflections. I don't have any examples yet but it creates a circular light against the wall that is very sharp because the strobe is small.
Photographer
Michael Broughton
Posts: 2288
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
you're going to be converting a lot of light into heat, so watch out for overheating, especially if you're using spray paint. at the very least i'd recommend choosing a spray paint meant for painting barbecues or engine parts. myself i'd skip the black paint and just make a custom reflector out of sheet aluminum that's only slightly bigger than the flash tube. Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
If I were building it, I'd want a silver parabolic reflector behind the light. that'll cause a double shadow. a spherical reflector with the flash tube dead center would work though.
Model
Shei P
Posts: 540
Brooklyn, New York, US
I made a black reflector for my Einstein. It has darker and cleaner shadows (on a wall) than a silver with at least 2stops loss of light.
But it doesn't give a single hard edge shadow like a Profoto Hardbox.
Filmmaker
Mr_Sable
Posts: 83
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Mr_Sable wrote:
It's pricey Yep. If you think of it as black tin foil you'll lose your mind over the cost.
If you think of it as a reusable, multifunction light shaping tool that can be converted into a flag, a gobo, a set of barn doors, a cooky and a snoot, it becomes a bargain... Yeah. What he says.
Photographer
PR Zone
Posts: 897
London, England, United Kingdom
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
Shei P wrote:
I made a black reflector for my Einstein. It has darker and cleaner shadows (on a wall) than a silver with at least 2stops loss of light.
But it doesn't give a single hard edge shadow like a Profoto Hardbox. You make it sound like you think a Profoto Hardbox on your Einstein would make your Einstein produce sharper shadows.
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Michael Broughton wrote:
you're going to be converting a lot of light into heat, so watch out for overheating, especially if you're using spray paint. at the very least i'd recommend choosing a spray paint meant for painting barbecues or engine parts. myself i'd skip the black paint and just make a custom reflector out of sheet aluminum that's only slightly bigger than the flash tube.
that'll cause a double shadow. a spherical reflector with the flash tube dead center would work though. Yeah, that's right. Listen to him.
Photographer
Jakov Markovic
Posts: 1128
Belgrade, Central Serbia, Serbia
Don't do it, I mean, yes it will make it harder, but it will still not be matte enough to give you one distinct shadow, unless it's some super textured spray.
What you need to do is surround your light source with black fabric on at least two sides.
For That you can construct a box, if you may call it from styrofoam and fabric, I make it so big that it's 10 feet high and 3 feet wide. (two large panels, one left one right, and one small to top it all, put just plain fabric on the floor of the studio and done).
P.S.I tried paint, it worked on a larger modifier, but not on smaller ones.
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
Mortonovich wrote:
Yep, that was me. Small trash can, actually. And it worked AWESOME. I made it for Mark Sacro. The thing fugging rocks and I think he still uses it a bunch. NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
How are the shadow edges sharper than using a bare bulb? They're not really. The advantage over bare bulb is that, of course, you have more control over where the light goes. Less scatter and bounce-fill (depending on your location).
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
You make it sound like you think a Profoto Hardbox on your Einstein would make your Einstein produce sharper shadows. And why exactly (not withstanding the mounting issues - which aren't insignificant), do you think the hardbox mounted correctly to a light doesn't/won't/wouldn't?
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
Shei P wrote:
I made a black reflector for my Einstein. It has darker and cleaner shadows (on a wall) than a silver with at least 2stops loss of light.
But it doesn't give a single hard edge shadow like a Profoto Hardbox. I knew you were cool!!!!
Photographer
Sans Cloth
Posts: 166
Salt Lake City, Utah, US
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
And why exactly (not withstanding the mounting issues - which aren't insignificant), do you think the hardbox mounted correctly to a light doesn't/won't/wouldn't? The reason you cannot use a Hardbox on most strobes but Profoto (I have never seen or heard of anyone using successfully on any other brand) is due to the design. The glass dome has to be removed (which is why the Profoto D500 cannot be used) which leaves only the actual flash tube at a 90 degree from the opening - it is the smallest footprint of the flash tube possible, and along with a specifically design edge that masks the light coming out of the front opening, causes the hard edge.
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 12221
Los Angeles, California, US
Sans Cloth wrote:
The reason you cannot use a Hardbox on most strobes but Profoto (I have never seen or heard of anyone using successfully on any other brand) is due to the design. The glass dome has to be removed (which is why the Profoto D500 cannot be used) which leaves only the actual flash tube at a 90 degree from the opening - it is the smallest footprint of the flash tube possible, and along with a specifically design edge that masks the light coming out of the front opening, causes the hard edge. Yes I realize, that's why I couched the question with "not withstanding the mounting issues which aren't insignificant". BTW I'm a Profoto user.
But my question was more assuming you could resolve the mounting issue where the tube was stuck in there at a 90 degree angle, why did the photographer feel it wouldn't produce a hard edge shadow.
Photographer
Sans Cloth
Posts: 166
Salt Lake City, Utah, US
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
Yes I realize, that's why I couched the question with "not withstanding the mounting issues which aren't insignificant". BTW I'm a Profoto user.
But my question was more assuming you could resolve the mounting issue where the tube was stuck in there at a 90 degree angle, why did the photographer feel it wouldn't produce a hard edge shadow. I think we are on the same page...I'm just more of the opinion that it is NOT possible (instead of "aren't insignificant").
Photographer
JONATHAN RICHARD
Posts: 778
New York, New York, US
Shei P wrote:
.....
But it doesn't give a single hard edge shadow like a Profoto Hardbox. I have found that the stock Profoto Hardbox actually produced a double edge shadow…NOT a clean single edge shadow.... which is obtainable with a Leko Strobe (Ellipsoidal Spot reflector)
Photographer
Dan Howell
Posts: 3562
Kerhonkson, New York, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
I'm thinking about creating some harsh lighting setups with my strobes. I have detachable reflectors -- indeed, you have to take off the reflector to use the soft boxes.
I'm thinking about taking one of the small reflectors, scuffing you the reflective surfaces, and spray painting them matte black. I'm hoping to create really sharp edged shadows.
Anyone done this before? Is it worth the bother (and the destruction of a reflector)? Yes, we did it all of the time at one studio I assisted/shot at. We did large room sets for furniture and softgoods still-life catalogs. The black 'reflectors' (in this case all Comet strobes) were used when we wanted to create a sharp sun effect in a room--sometimes thru prop windows.
There are a few differences/reasons to do it with the reflector and not Cinefoil. With a black reflector you can still use drop-in grids if the reflector is made for them and Cinefoil can sometimes get in the way of proper venting of the strobes which can shorten the life of the flash tube.
I use an optical spot for that effect in my own studio, but they do require a certain amount of space for the fixture itself and they don't transport well. A black reflector is a cheaper and practical light modifier for the same or similar effect.
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 16713
Orlando, Florida, US
Mr_Sable wrote:
It's pricey, but you can get it at any production house and it has a great many uses - You can bend scoops and barn door extensions and such with it. It certainly is NOT pricey.
Unless you think $30 for a roll of it (shipping included) is out of your budget.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002IHHME/ref … 5YDVY5AOZ4
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 22232
Stamford, Connecticut, US
Sans Cloth wrote:
The reason you cannot use a Hardbox on most strobes but Profoto (I have never seen or heard of anyone using successfully on any other brand) is due to the design. The glass dome has to be removed (which is why the Profoto D500 cannot be used) which leaves only the actual flash tube at a 90 degree from the opening - it is the smallest footprint of the flash tube possible, and along with a specifically design edge that masks the light coming out of the front opening, causes the hard edge. You can easily remove the glass dome from a Hensel strobe.
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
J O H N A L L A N wrote:
And why exactly (not withstanding the mounting issues - which aren't insignificant), do you think the hardbox mounted correctly to a light doesn't/won't/wouldn't? The only thing that's going to make it harder is if the light when used sideways presents a smaller source. That's going to vary from light to light. Does an Einstein do that? I don't know. One thing the hardbox does is control spill, but that is going to make the shadows darker, not sharper.
Fred has the sharpest suggestion in this other thread:
Fred Greissing wrote:
Hardbox and bare flash tubes IMHO don't produce clean hard light.
The problem is the shape of the tube. It is not a sufficiently clean shape.
It will produce a double shadow and often with a sort of chromatic aberration to it.
For clean hard light that really looks like the sun or sharper you really need more of a point source.
The best are:
Bare HMI bulb. (bare bulb0
High density Osram 2K spot bulb (bare bulb)
For flash you will get some improvement with a double coil flash tube ( the kind used in dedicated fresnel spot heads).
The best and most economical way to get very clean hard light is to use a Selecon Acclaim and then get a Chimera 2170 speed ring (for elinchrom) or the equivalent for your flash.
The selecon acclaim is a tungsten focusing and zooming Leko light. You just unscrew the tungsten "head" and them screw the Chimera speed ring on.
There is also an IR filter in the selecon... you need to remove that too. Very easy to do.
The results are very good with a clean and sharp projected shadow. Even the fine detail of hair projects a clean and detailed shadow.
Look at how clean the hair shadow is here:
![https://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/100916/14/4c9287288bf79_m.jpg]()
Here see how clean the shadow of the arm is and how clean the shadow from the
the models eye lashes is.
![https://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/091222/23/4b31c914ec7b6_m.jpg]()
You can get Selecon Acclaims for a good price from theatrical lighting dealers.
If you get lucky you can pick them up cheaper still on ebay.
There are many types of Lekos out there, but the selecon acclaim is the best suited for flash retrofitting.
As far as output. I get f11 when projected head to toe using a 3K head at iso 100 https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st14570790
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
Managing Light wrote:
Nice study - thanks for that. Thank you
Filmmaker
Mr_Sable
Posts: 83
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Good Egg Productions wrote:
It certainly is NOT pricey.
Unless you think $30 for a roll of it (shipping included) is out of your budget.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002IHHME/ref … 5YDVY5AOZ4 $30!?! William F. White F***S us again (and again and again)! What a bargain!
Photographer
Llobet Photography
Posts: 4915
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
This was shot in my living room home studio. I wanted to approximate sunlight. The ceilings are 8 feet and the room is 15x18 feet painted white (slightly yellowish). I put the Einstein strobe with a bare bulb up against the ceiling facing down slightly toward the model. No other modifiers were used. ![https://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/140821/19/53f6ae22b99e4_m.jpg]()
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