What really gets me is the following scenario.

1. Model or in this case "band" are requesting my services.
2. I communicate that I'm willing to work with them.
3. Conversation via email becomes confusing.
4. Why bring up someone I have worked with? Are we not discussing shooting a project? What does a previous model **** have anything to do with this?

Please read this and tell me how the hell am I being scary? Or better yet, how am I making this 'complicated'?

I know I haven't had my coffee yet, but I'm at a loss here

Start from the bottom and work your way up....

This is the last correspondance from the 'band'

I can't do it your way there...first of all I have band members in tampa. second of all it goes by what I say. this is my project. All I need is prices per image. .. I really don't like that girl **** anymore cause she's been trouble-making with me behind my back and I don't know why but the style you did hers in is great. Indoors would be better...I don't like the sun.Why does it need to be that complicated..why didn't you just im me here on myspace in the first place? at least. You're scareing me a bit.

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: TDIR Photography
Date: May 8, 2005 5:06 PM

That's totally fine, I suggest that you and the rest of the band get together and schedule being that I am in Tampa but I do have those in your area that I would like to work with along with you while i'm down there.

As far as prices, for bands oh goddess, I'm definitely down with those types of shoots. But, you all need to discuss on the following

1. What style / setting / etc you want to portray. I have ideas based on what I've seen so far of the band and never meeting any of you, i'm going kinda cold on what you all will want or what style eventually you'll be wanting to work on.

2. Regarding number one, i'm willing to work with your ideas.

3. Depends ultimately on what you want, how many rolls duration and location.

4. What do you all have budgeted for promotional / press release photos.

The time line into next month sounds good, I just need more information but until then do talk with your band mates and then we talk price which i guarantee will be lower than what you might think.

I'll be on tonight or you can call me at 813 ***-**** to discuss, the messaging seems so impersonal.

Rik

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: *****
Date: May 7, 2005 6:15 PM

I'll have to get with my other band members and find out when they can do theirs also and I need to know prices. Thank you. It will hopefully take place next month depending n your prices.

-****
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: TDIR Photography
Date: May 7, 2005 3:14 PM

for your coolness, definitely, what timeline were you looking at?

I'm booked up next weekend, what's up ?

Rik

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: *****
Date: May 7, 2005 7:54 AM

My band needs pictures taken.Are you avaILABLE?

-*****

I wouldn't even bother. If there's drama just trying to get information imagine what working with them would be like. Jeez!

This is one of those cases where you would have to turn down the shoot.  The "price per image" thingy... yeah, ok, here, it's your day (or half) day rate for the first image, each image after that is discounted.  How about that?  You must be paid for your time regardless of what they want to use.

What a bunch of amateures.  What scares me is
"second of all it goes by what I say. this is my project."  This sounds like "for concept I'll be telling you what to do, on the set I'll be telling you what to do, when you edit I'll be telling you what to do and if I'm not happpy with it in the end [because I assure you I'll be complaining the entire time] then I'll dispute final payment and keep my money."

Decline.

Oh absolutely, I should be the one asking 'why does this have to be so complicated?'

I was looking forward to working with them but after the drama statement, I'm going to pass.

Secondly, 'price per print', what, you want me to bring a roll of 24 and snap a few pics and you pay per print?

Oh well,

I can't see myself continuting this conversatin any more.  This sounds like the kind of person that isn't going to be happy under any circumstances and life is just too short to deal with that.

The other alternative is to quote them a price that would make Donald Trump crap his pants.  To be paid in advance.  Then if they take it, you'd at least be compensated for putting up with their shit.  Make sure your contract is VERY specific on what is provided and how much time you're expected to put in on this.

lb

Rik, sort of reminds me of being a MARK durring the first summer I started out, and having my name dragged through the mudd with an agency to find out a year later that it was all a set up to ruin me, that some how i avoided by pure luck. But that band sounds off kilter dude, tell them to go get a throw away camera and be done with it.

Lordy...I hope that band manages to communicate better when trying to arrange for studio space and gigs. Sounds like they don't know what they want, or much else about any of it.

If you go through with it, I'd definately be sure to collect upfront- a deposit that can go toward prints at the very least.

Instantly reject all association with dramaqueen bullshit.

Seriously. Just walk away.

The $200 a dirt-poor band will want to pay you is NOT worth it.

As many people have already indicated or implied, there doesn't seem to be any possible way of you coming out of this a winner. This dimwit has no idea what you're talking about, gets scared when you ask reasonable questions, and insists on doing it his way? What way would that be? (that's why it's so hard to let people like this go...I'd love to try and figure out what goes on inside his mind, and the potential for amusement is incredibly high...but not likely worth raising your blood pressure 10 points with each email).

where did that come from?  You were asking questions to set yourself up for a shoot... Project + Drama = Move on!  Too many good things to do then bother with silliness. 

reminds me exactly of the shoot I did last year with a band.
This was my worst nightmare and i do never do those stuff anymore, it makes you sick! keep your hands away from that.

RUN... don't walk... just run and let them find another shooter. This person does not understand professional services and from the sound of it, wants all control. BUH BYE!!! It will save you time and grief.

Henh, and that's why I don't talk to bands anymore. I either deal with their road manager or the promoter for the show. I get my flat fee and a bar tab. They get a disk and some proofs with limited rights. I get to post the images as stock. Everybody is happy. Rock stars are all hooligans. Fun when you're in a strip club, not so fun when dealing with money.

What is scary is not you, but their response to the simple guidelines you gave them to help you plan out the shoot for their needs. Sounds like a bunch of drugged out, ego-maniac not to mention unprofessional group of guys..Better to put your attention elsewhere.

Instead of turning this away....just charge an EXORBITANT amount of money to shoot them.  They will then walk away....OR actually PAY YOU the rate you were crazy to ask. 

I shoot bands ... and based on what the IM messages said, I would say;
"My rate is $2,000 for the session. No per print prices. You will be paying for my labor in that I will listen to you and provide you with the images that you direct me to produce. You will then get all the images and own the copyrights. Take it or leave it!"

IF they go for that, then it would be worth it as long as the contract were lock tight ... I would be happy to do it for the right amount of money and let the band do what they want with the images. It is not worth dealing wiht all the "per" print, or the percentages, etc, ... but that is how it is done!

DON'T do it at a low price! Let them find out that they will get what they pay for! So $2,000 might sound steep to you and the band, but it's NOT! Trust me on this! The band would walk away with images they can use on albums, for selling signed enlargements, plus for promo and press kits. You may think that is not a good idea ... but very few bands will pay the price for great photography (they get it free most of the time!) and very few of these same bands will ever amount to much more than playing a few club gigs. 

wow thank you all so much for allowing me to vent my frustration and in turn, advise and suggest how to handle this. This is why I really like this site, so many looking out for one another.

I have since ended the correspondance anyway. She actually had the nerve to ask 'i was thinking on shoot in Tampa, and Fort Lauderdale since some of the band lives in Tampa..."

And Eric called it, "is somewhere between $200-250 reasonable?"

ah, bah bye...

Oh she just did not say that! And insult to injury, Multiple shoots in two locations across the state?

Oh boy, believe you me, they are NOT going to like the price plus reimbursibles....

Thank you all again, but I'm turning this one down, regardless if they accept. As most of you had said, I think this 'band' is in for a rude awakening or have no clue if they were ever to be signed to any lable; what the process will entail and cost.

take care

Rik

Rik Bowman..

That is sad to say very typical!!! The last band we shot was:
"Prince" & The New Power Generation for a film publicity still.
When bands/bookers call asking inane questions similar to your situation
we simply tell them that "Prince" was the last musician we worked with...

We've also shot U2 & The Rolling Stones.. That usually quiets the storm!!

........eldorado@eb&a

Rik - I'm glad you won't be putting up with their drama anymore.  Maybe they can get one of their friends on myspace to take some pictures or something.  I love working with musicians, but I hate dealing with wannabe rock stars.  Thanks for posting those emails - I needed a good laugh.  Cheers.

this is why i hate bands, i did one a few weeks ago, good god, if i moved with the camera, which was not center stright on, a pissy fit broke out. so i jest sneek my ideas in when they werent looking.
a anther one came up to me, i rolled my eyes, they a gave a very basic idea, i lafe(with them not at) and added on to the idea, going as far as telling them how to dress.
i truly think art is better, when theres more then one head is working, cant wait to it, because we all have rent paying jobs on the side, it's hard to get time to do it
on the other band, they keep on e-mailing me for bigger file size, i know this is bad, but they have a 300 dpi file, why they need more? i jest ignore them, hope they make it big and tell others to stay away from me

Hi Rik I will be in Tampa this summer can we shoot first what do you charge LOLS HAHA what a crock of garbage. Hey your right  what does working with someone else have to do with the shoot with them. NEXT!!! Rick Drama free ,stress free . If it doesnt work ,dont work it.

Well Update time, I haven't returned any emails and have heard nothing back, oh well I'm not losing sleep.

I don't mind shooting bands but again, such as the band in my profile...

1. They have been around for over ten years - experienced.
2. Knew what they wanted, for what and for how much - experienced.
3. Let me do my thing without a second's hesitation - they wanted me to shoot them due to my style, gave me my freedom once more I add - experienced.

Shoot over, published photos, I'm happy, they were happy need I say more?

Vamp, just give me a shout when you're down here, what portion of the summer will you be down?

Thank you all again for the support !!

Have a great weekend

Rik

Rik, come to NY where we're drama free (I wish).