CO Model Amber wrote:
What's the deal with that? I thought TFP meant TIME FOR PRINTS as in you give the photographer your time and you get the prints/cd for free.

Or what's with photographers who charge so much for so little? I've seen a lot of photographers charge $500+ for like 3-4 looks and then maybe 3-4 EDITED pictures and the same for prints 8x10 and sometimes all the raw images. I would expect a lot more for that kind of money!

If this has been asked, sorry!

I'm just really curious!

Hi Amber, I can't really answer your question on the TFP deal. Obviously you have met someone or come across someone saying they do TFP and charge, which is not really what TFP is all about.

But what I am interested in is your issue with a 500 dollar charge for 3-4 looks, and then 3-4 edited pictures.

When put that way, it might sound pricey, but 3-4 looks might take 2-3 hours or so.  Then the editing, which (if the model needs a lot of corrective work) might take another hour or two.  So, potentially up to five hours.

So, if that comes out to $500, thats $100 an hour.

Considering the dollar value of the equipment alone required to do a proper shoot and edit the images afterwards - then toss in the skill to use them, that doesn't sound too bad to me.

CO Model Amber wrote:
What's the deal with that? I thought TFP meant TIME FOR PRINTS as in you give the photographer your time and you get the prints/cd for free.

Or what's with photographers who charge so much for so little? I've seen a lot of photographers charge $500+ for like 3-4 looks and then maybe 3-4 EDITED pictures and the same for prints 8x10 and sometimes all the raw images. I would expect a lot more for that kind of money!

If this has been asked, sorry!

I'm just really curious!

Hmmmm......not trying to sound smart, but, then it's not TFP. And the only one who can answer your uestion truthfully is the photographer who is charging for TFP.

Now, there is a test rate that a lot of photographer's offer......could that be it? It's a reduced session rate for promising models....

Avicdar wrote:

Hi Amber, I can't really answer your question on the TFP deal. Obviously you have met someone or come across someone saying they do TFP and charge, which is not really what TFP is all about.

But what I am interested in is your issue with a 500 dollar charge for 3-4 looks, and then 3-4 edited pictures.

When put that way, it might sound pricey, but 3-4 looks might take 2-3 hours or so.  Then the editing, which (if the model needs a lot of corrective work) might take another hour or two.  So, potentially up to five hours.

So, if that comes out to $500, thats $100 an hour.

Considering the dollar value of the equipment alone required to do a proper shoot and edit the images afterwards - then toss in the skill to use them, that doesn't sound too bad to me.

How much a photographer spends on the equipment he/she uses to shoot the model should not matter how much you charge a model, it's not our fault you spend so much on your equipment. That's like me saying I should charge you for my clothing used during the shoot that could be a few hundred/thousand dollars :laughing:

The time editing the pictures shouldnt matter either. I know if I was handing over a lot of money like $500 plus I'd expect more then 3-4 looks and 3-4 edited prints and a CD of the edited images. God I can get all that for free doing a TFP shoot or even MORE.

CO Model Amber wrote:
How much a photographer spends on the equipment he/she uses to shoot the model should not matter how much you charge a model...

The time editing the pictures shouldnt matter either...

Putting aside the rather obvious if there's a $500 fee then it's not TFP issue ... this is just a definitional issue that others have addressed.

Amber, let me get this straight... business expenses and time spent delivering services do not have any thing to do with the fees charged for the service or product? 

I'm speechless.  Ok, actually I could say all sorts of things, but I'm not going to.

Gheesh!

The Don Mon wrote:
its no longer tfp .its work for hire after that

Be careful with the term "work for hire" as that usually means that the copyright belongs to the person paying, which is not necessarily the case here.

tampabayphotos wrote:
I know one FL photographer who "targets" new-to-the-business unknowing models who appear on "new model" lists on OMP and other sites. (he snags them before they know what hit them) At that point they are too new to modeling and don't know any other models to network with so that they will know who (especially him) to avoid.

He tells girls he is doing a "free" TFP shoot for them and then after he does the "free" TFP shoot he fast-talks them into paying him $400 to make, and upload 5 photos, to a FREE OMP page that all models can do and get for free for themselves. He has done this more than once....and is probably still doing it today to any newbie he can sucker out.

Talk about a used car salesman with a camera! Phewwwwww

He's even worse than a GWC!

Hee hee ... I know who you're talkin' about!
*sighs and shakes head* Some peoples are just in it for the wrong reasons huh?

Zabrena wrote:

Hee hee ... I know who you're talkin' about!
*sighs and shakes head* Some peoples are just in it for the wrong reasons huh?

He has been sued by many models for a variety of reasons and LOST in court!  YEAAAAA!!!!!!

But a low life like that doesn't care what he does to people and will never stop as long as there are newbies he can fast-talk.

Some day he will be in good company "down there" with all the ambulance chasing lawyers. I hope his camera is fire proof.....LOL

tampabayphotos wrote:
He tells girls he is doing a "free" TFP shoot for them and then after he does the "free" TFP shoot he fast-talks them into paying him $400 to make, and upload 5 photos, to a FREE OMP page that all models can do and get for free for themselves. He has done this more than once....and is probably still doing it today to any newbie he can sucker out.

I agree the newbie doesn't know what to look for. But I'm wondering what this guys model release would specify with respect to the tangibles that the model would receive.

Curt Burgess wrote:

I agree the newbie doesn't know what to look for. But I'm wondering what this guys model release would specify with respect to the tangibles that the model would receive.

A girl who is brand spanking new to modeling probably doesn't even know what a model release form is or how it affects her. Imagine what a fast talking car saleman would do to a 18 year old girl buying her first car on her own without a clue as to what she is in for.....thats like a newbie model and ANY document.

I have worked with 30+ nieve newbies who had the mistaken idea that OMP "thoroughly screens" the character of the so called photographers who lurk on there to make sure they are "honorable" and not wanted in 10 states for child molestation!!!  Being a protective dad of my own 3 daughters I spend half the time at the shoot counseling the newbies as to what to watch out for, what not to sign before another knowledgeable person reviews it....and to never go alone to a shoot.

Some of these newbie girls are so oblivious to reality that its scarey.

tampabayphotos wrote:
I know one FL photographer who "targets" new-to-the-business unknowing models who appear on "new model" lists on OMP and other sites. (he snags them before they know what hit them) At that point they are too new to modeling and don't know any other models to network with so that they will know who (especially him) to avoid.

He tells girls he is doing a "free" TFP shoot for them and then after he does the "free" TFP shoot he fast-talks them into paying him $400 to make, and upload 5 photos, to a FREE OMP page that all models can do and get for free for themselves. He has done this more than once....and is probably still doing it today to any newbie he can sucker out.

Talk about a used car salesman with a camera! Phewwwwww

He's even worse than a GWC!

I thought that guy died a few years ago? I guess there uded to be two.

tampabayphotos wrote:
A girl who is brand spanking new to modeling probably doesn't even know what a model release form is or how it affects her. Imagine what a fast talking car saleman would do to a 18 year old girl buying her first car on her own without a clue as to what she is in for.....thats like a newbie model and ANY document.

I have worked with 30  nieve newbies who had the mistaken idea that omp "thoroughly screens" the character of the so called photographers who lurk on there to make sure they are "honorable" and not wanted in 10 states for child molestation!!!  Being a protective dad of my own 3 daughters I spend half the time at the shoot counseling the newbies as to what to watch out for, what not to sign before another knowledgeable person reviews it....and to never go alone to a shoot.

Some of these newbie girls are so oblivious to reality that its scarey.

Right. I know - hence the first sentence in my post. (the quoting option isn't letting me insert my original post to which you responded)

Let me repeat my question, though, in case anyone knows. "But I'm wondering what this guys model release would specify with respect to the tangibles that the model would receive."

Thomas Watkin wrote:
Maybe ModelMayhem could provide a service to new models explaining a few of the tricks unscrupulous photogs might try.

It isn't unscrupulous to charge for a portfolio test.  TFP stands for Trade for prints, nowadays that would probably be TFCD.  Testing is different, paid testing is when a model pays a photographer for shots for her or his portfolio.  Some photographers do this for a living, they don't need shots for their books they just do this for a living and some are very good at consistantly giving the agents what they want. Agents in fact send their models to this kind of photographer often.   I work with a photographer in LA that charges $800.00, including makeup artist but he is very good, too good to be doing model testing in my opinion but he needs the money and LA is very competitive, it's hard to make a living in photography there.

I think it's time for people to expand into the real world, what you see reflected on these pages doesn't reflect what goes on in the real world of professional modeling and photography.  If you ever email a very good working photographer and ask about a TFP there is a good chance he or she is going to delete your email not even knowing what they hell you are talking about.  If you ask about testing he or she will probably come back with a price....if he or she is really successful you just insulted him or her by even asking about a test and probably won't even get a reply.

Sorry people, thats the way it is...I am not intending to insult the nice people here that do test and do TFP but it's important for models to know that this isnt standard industry jargon.

CO Model Amber wrote:
What's the deal with that? I thought TFP meant TIME FOR PRINTS as in you give the photographer your time and you get the prints/cd for free.

That's what it used to mean. Until hurricane Katrina.

CO Model Amber wrote:
Or what's with photographers who charge so much for so little? I've seen a lot of photographers charge $500+ for like 3-4 looks and then maybe 3-4 EDITED pictures and the same for prints 8x10 and sometimes all the raw images. I would expect a lot more for that kind of money!

Now, that's a good question. See these? That's the quality of the free stuff I provide as TFP/CD. Shot on general purpose Kodak. The slides I shoot on the more expensive film like Provia, Velvia and Astea, those I charge for. That shit ain't cheap and neither is the processing. The quality? Much, much higher than what you see below. And, I might add, stands really strong in a hand carry portfolio. The shots below? I wouldn't put those in a hand carry port. (well, maybe)

Zabrena wrote:

Hee hee ... I know who you're talkin' about!
*sighs and shakes head* Some peoples are just in it for the wrong reasons huh?

I have a clue as well who you are talking about and yea, the bait and switch is nasty.  If it's a paid test you call it a paid test if it's TFP call it a TFP.

CO Model Amber wrote:
What's the deal with that? I thought TFP meant TIME FOR PRINTS as in you give the photographer your time and you get the prints/cd for free.

Or what's with photographers who charge so much for so little? I've seen a lot of photographers charge $500+ for like 3-4 looks and then maybe 3-4 EDITED pictures and the same for prints 8x10 and sometimes all the raw images. I would expect a lot more for that kind of money!

If this has been asked, sorry!

I'm just really curious!

Ive brought this up a few times just on the tfp side of things.  I have thought it was really unfair for the model and photographer to do a tfp shoot and then the model only gets 3-4 edited images of the photographers choice afterwards.  But to pay so much and still get offered so little?    Last I checked, tfp or tfcd was for an even exchange of things.  Models time for prints, or a cd of all the images.  I have recently been told by a few photographers that I was taught wrong.
It goes back to the standards I live by though which is.
If you feel like youre getting over on, you probably are.  I just choose not to work with those certain people.
God forbid take 500 bucks out of my pocket and the photographer only give me what 'he or she' thinks I 'deserve'   Its really unfair in my opinion. -shrugs- but thats why I refuse to do it.  Of course, Im from Virginia too.  Not TOOO many outrageously great photogs here. =\

CO Model Amber wrote:
How much a photographer spends on the equipment he/she uses to shoot the model should not matter how much you charge a model, it's not our fault you spend so much on your equipment. That's like me saying I should charge you for my clothing used during the shoot that could be a few hundred/thousand dollars :laughing:

The time editing the pictures shouldnt matter either. I know if I was handing over a lot of money like $500 plus I'd expect more then 3-4 looks and 3-4 edited prints and a CD of the edited images. God I can get all that for free doing a TFP shoot or even MORE.

Amber..

Business is business.  Sit down and calculate the cost of equipment investment, and toss in a profit to stay in business.  The numbers will pretty much bear out what I am telling you.

Similarly, if a model is in it for business, they should and do charge a rate that allows them to continue to buy clothes, get manicures, keep their tan going, etc etc.  It only makes sense.  Whatever business you are in, you need to figure in the cost of new purchases and maintaining what you have.  Otherwise, what you are doing is a HOBBY.

As for 'its not our fault you spend so much on your equipment' - its not a matter of fault, its simply business economics.   I doubt very much you would desire to shoot with, or have much confidence, in someone with a cheap point and shoot camera who runs to 'Photo Shack' right after the session to get the film developed.   All this equipment costs money, and again, we're not talking about a hobby.

theda wrote:

I thought that guy died a few years ago? I guess there uded to be two.

Sorry to say he's alive and well and probably sharpening his fangs waiting for the new wave of newbies.

The real shame of this is that he is not just a GWC.....he actually does take good photos.....its just that scrupples, honesty and honorability were removed from his dictionary long ago and the courts all felt the same way which is why he lost all the cases the models (who obviously did have the proper proof/documents) brought against him.

Joe K. Perez wrote:

CO Model Amber wrote:
What's the deal with that? I thought TFP meant TIME FOR PRINTS as in you give the photographer your time and you get the prints/cd for free.

That's what it used to mean. Until hurricane Katrina.


Now, that's a good question. See these? That's the quality of the free stuff I provide as TFP/CD. Shot on general purpose Kodak. The slides I shoot on the more expensive film like Provia, Velvia and Astea, those I charge for. That shit ain't cheap and neither is the processing. The quality? Much, much higher than what you see below. And, I might add, stands really strong in a hand carry portfolio. The shots below? I wouldn't put those in a hand carry port. (well, maybe)

WOw! That's some good stuff there....

Zabrena wrote:
Ohhhh yes ... that guy is VERY much alive!

K...what guy. Someone e-mail me his name and how much he's charging. I'm curious as hell now, because I charge peanuts. I wanna know how dumb I am in this respect.

DawnElizabeth Moderator wrote:
...(snipped)...
WOw! That's some good stuff there....

*blushes and crosses knees*

...why thank you

Edited: Those examples has flaws, i.e. hair causing shadows in her eyes, etc. The stuff on my slides are flawless, even lighting all around and on the model, no hair or shadows messing with the face, body and clothing. Heck, no shadows anywhere and that's not because of photoshop either. The background is muted the way it should be. The lighting is an even balance of natural and fill light. That's the kind of stuff I create for hand carry ports.

Zabrena wrote:
Check your messages Joe ....

Thanks Zabrena

Gunfitr wrote:
Escorts, chaperones, photoshop, film versus digital, copyrights, tfp and a whole standard list of topics consume most chat boards for amateur models.

It's what amateurs talk about when they aren't modeling apparently.

Mark

ahhahahhahahaa, good one Mark...

Mary wrote:

I have a clue as well who you are talking about and yea, the bait and switch is nasty.  If it's a paid test you call it a paid test if it's TFP call it a TFP.

If I really was king then I would outlaw using the letters TFP or TFCD from now on.

theda wrote:
$500 for 3-4 looks sounds pretty fair (and standard) to me, assuming styling and MUA is included. I'd also only expect one edited 9x12 per look. It's about quality over quantity. Maybe you can get more from a TFP shoot, but the guys asking $500 for that are often worth it. At least, the guys around here doing testing for agencies are worth it.

I agree... especially the "QUALITY OVER QUANTITY" part... besides, you wouldn't want to put 2 or 3 of the same look on your book, it'll be redundant and boring! I normally pick the best photo per look and have the photographer edit that...