CHIAN wrote:
the only thing that has changed for me once i joined the agnecy is that they screen for me instead of me having to worry about if the client/photog. is legit.

so i know i won't have to worry about anything, and i have the security factor with an agency.

So basically they make money doing things you can just as easily do yourself? Models have access to the same tools they use.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

So basically they make money doing things you can just as easily do yourself? Models have access to the same tools they use.

lol... pretty much

just a time consumer i guess.

plus it's more on a international basis now instead of national.

CHIAN wrote:

lol... pretty much

just a time consumer i guess.

plus it's more on a international basis now instead of national.

Time, all a part of the job,lol. If I did not want to take the time it took to do all of my work I would hire an editor and web designer,lol But to me the time input is all part of it.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
Things like this have made me and many other photographers shy away from models who are with an agency or have a personal agent.

Have you thought about just vectoring through an agency for your models? (rhetorical)

John

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
So basically they make money doing things you can just as easily do yourself? Models have access to the same tools they use.

This makes me wonder if some have even seen the Inside panel of an agency door...

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
So basically they make money doing things you can just as easily do yourself? Models have access to the same tools they use.

If that's all the agency is doing, it's time to look for a new agency...

theda wrote:
If that's all the agency is doing...

They probably aren't an agency at all.

area291 wrote:

This makes me wonder if some have even seen the Inside panel of an agency door...

See the question mark? It was not a statement
I do not deal with agencies so really I have no idea what all they do. All I know is from the models I have contacted who are with agencies they have all been very limited in what they can do and who they can do it with and want to do more than the agency would allow. And it seems that they pretty much collect a percentage for doing very basic work that the model can do his/herself.
This is why I have stopped contacting models who are signed with agencies or have agents.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
I do not deal with agencies so really I have no idea what all they do. All I know is from the models I have contacted who are with agencies they have all been very limited in what they can do and who they can do it with and want to do more than the agency would allow. And it seems that they pretty much collect a percentage for doing very basic work that the model can do his/herself.
This is why I have stopped contacting models who are signed with agencies or have agents.

Agencies (real ones, not internet wannabes) do a lot of things. Number one on the list is that they have the contacts to get real, paying jobs. After all, models have to eat too. Maybe not as much, but they do eat (if they're working). Modeling for fun might be all warm and fuzzy, or maybe even be good practice (if the photog has a clue what he's doing) but it won't pay the bills.

Here are some other things an agency does for their models;
Basic info for models

Hoot

Hoot wrote:

Agencies (real ones, not internet wannabes) do a lot of things. Number one on the list is that they have the contacts to get real, paying jobs. After all, models have to eat too. Maybe not as much, but they do eat (if they're working). Modeling for fun might be all warm and fuzzy, or maybe even be good practice (if the photog has a clue what he's doing) but it won't pay the bills.

Here are some other things an agency does for their models;
Basic info for models

Hoot

We are getting way off topic with this,lol. But that is an interesting link.

Hoot wrote:
Sorry, I guess it is a little off topic.

It might be interesting to see if any working models have left their booking agency so they could shoot for free.

             

Not so they could shoot for free,lol. But because the modeling agency would not allow them to do some styles of modeling they wanted to do.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
I do not deal with agencies so really I have no idea what all they do. All I know is from the models I have contacted who are with agencies they have all been very limited in what they can do and who they can do it with and want to do more than the agency would allow.

The logic in your post astounds me.  It's like asking people what they think of hospitals and decided you don't like them because all of the people were in pain when they went there.

Models who find success at agencies benefit from the agencies resources and negotiation on their behalf.  As a commercial/fashion photographer, when I have a project with a budget a model I call agencies that have solid reputations and that I have built a working relationship.  It is much more practical for a producer to make three or four calls to see 30 or 40 model portfolio than it is to make 30 or 40 individual phone calls.  Additionally, as much as individual models might differ or complain, there is a greater degree of reliability with models from agencies.  It has been born out  in my observation over all of the bookings I have made as well as those of my friends and peers.

On a model's behalf, an agency will have tremendosly more access to information about upcoming projects than even the most active individual model.  An effective agency will have a concrete idea of the market-wide fees for various types of modeling projects and make sure that their models receive the best fees.  They are also there to insure that all details for a project are secure, including travel.  After a shoot they are better able to resolve any disputes and collect the fee.  Some fashion agencies even advance a percentage of the model's fees on a weekly basis.

All of this is in addition to marketing and developing a model's career.  Some agents or agencies do this far better than others.  For a photographer to make a blanket statement that they don't deal with agencies says more about the photographer than it does about agencies.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
I have gotten several reponses from models similar to" I would love to do (add any particular modeling work here) but my agency will not allow me to do so". Things like this have made me and many other photographers shy away from models who are with an agency or have a personal agent.

True... I know several (many,many) agencies that will simply refuse to supply for certain kinds of work (e.g. art nudes) and they put a lock on their models about accepting work from direct or self-referrals originating outside the agency.

The models, individually, "might" be willing to take the particular work on but the bookers, when you call the agency, won't even consider it and won't pass the request to the, a, any, model and let them decide if they want it or not. Booker: "We don't supply models for that purpose. Don't call us we'll call you!" followed by the click on the phone as they hang up on you.

Interestingly, agencies are generally set up to make money, and set the model's fees from where they get their commissions, based on usage. For strictly "art" work they haven't got a damn clue. They just don't like the idea that if they supply a model at all for that kind of project [and most will just refuse outright] the photographer often just can't, because it is impossible, tell them in advance where or how the images might be used. OTOH if you were to call and tell the booker it was specifically a "full frontal buck naked" job for a major advertising campaign and for a first rate brand "name" they would drool and fall all over themselves to find a model to do it... and you'd need to hire a stadium for the casting call.

As a quick P.S. to the above... there ARE some agencies that book glamour models and know that side of the business, but they are very specialist agencies and far and few between. As for "personal managers" why the F**K should you deal with them rather than the model themselves?

Studio36

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
I have gotten several reponses from models similar to" I would love to do (add any particular modeling work here) but my agency will not allow me to do so". Things like this have made me and many other photographers shy away from models who are with an agency or have a personal agent.

That response you hear is really, "I'm sorry, your work isn't up to par at my agency."  Your reaction is exactly what the agencies want. 

Agencies naturally discriminate, against models, against photographers and against clients as well.  There is only one way to resolve it, make them want you more than you want them.  The way that is done is by creating agency level imaging and gaining a "I just have to shoot with him" reputation.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

Time, all a part of the job,lol. If I did not want to take the time it took to do all of my work I would hire an editor and web designer,lol But to me the time input is all part of it.

Well, honestly, there are a lot of national and international clients who do NOT deal with models one on one, preferring to deal with legitemate agencies.

If a model's goal is to only model for work that may come from photographers and local venues and clients, then they can do all the work themselves, you are correct. But if a model's goal is to be available to a larger market, she'd best get an agent.

Having an agent actually affords models and actors to have the time to do other things instead of having to spend hours researching work. And agents have access to so much more information and can weed out the scams from the real work.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
Oh how I wish for some replies which have to do with my original question,lol.

Well, I'm not a model, but I was a booker for a commercial print agency in NYC for four years. We represented over 700 models. I never had a model tell me that they were leaving the agency so they could freelance. We didn't have exclusive contracts, so they were free to get work on their own, and we didn't collect any fees for that.

Yes, if they asked, I would give them my evaluation of a photographers work, and in some cases advise them that they shouldn't work with certain photographers. There were a few times when I told a model that we would no longer represent them if they did. There were a few models that we dropped because they didn't follow, or didn't ask, our advice. Part of my job was to maintain the agencies, and the models, reputation.

Hoot

Edited to add
And at times I recommended that they work with some photographers, even for no pay. It all had to do with increasing the models value to the clients, and to the agency. 

I also told our models that they could use the agency as an excuse if there were photographers they didn't want to work with. It made their life easier, and if a photographer was serious, they'd contact the agency. We would sometimes supply models (at no charge) for photogs that were working on personal projects if their work was likely to help the model's book, or if the photographer was likely to book paying work in the future, or if it was for charity work, or public service, or for any number of other reasons.

Hoot wrote:
Agencies (real ones, not internet wannabes) do a lot of things. Number one on the list is that they have the contacts to get real, paying jobs. After all, models have to eat too. Maybe not as much, but they do eat (if they're working). Modeling for fun might be all warm and fuzzy, or maybe even be good practice (if the photog has a clue what he's doing) but it won't pay the bills.

Here are some other things an agency does for their models;
Basic info for models

Hoot

Just for the kicks I decided to read it, a very helpful piece of info for models wanting to be with an agency... I don't lol let's just say I had a bad experience. :-p

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
Have any models who read this ever left their modeling agency because they limit the types of modeling you can do? i.e. you want to do a certain style of modeling for a photographer but your agency wont let you.

No. 

They got me paying work, albeit nothing I would consider "creative."

I figured when my booker got me (paid) work, he was doing his job. When my booker threw out a shot that was inappropriate to the rest of the portfolio, it's because he knew the market and his clients better. When my booker told me doing something in particular was not in my best interest because _______________, I listened.

Only during my second incarnation modeling these past few years did my own taste take sway and I did more "interesting" work but it certainly could not be considered a cash-positive endeavor.

Who are you talking about anyway? An agency such as Click or Average Joe With a Camera Who Thinks He's An Agent?

pamela mars wrote:
i'm signed to 4 agency's.
i made sure they're all non-exclusive so i can still work.
i get less work from them than i do online-but pay is guarenteed through the agents.  if it's not through an agent-i don't leave til i'm paid.
the one thing with agents is how long you wait to get paid and the fees.
anyway-non-exclusive is the way to go.

I think it would be important to establish what kind of agency the questioner had in mind here.  If you were one of the Exalted Few who got into a top or second tier (aka boutique) agency, leaving an agency like Click, W, Ford, etc. because 1) they're exclusive and 2) they don't "let" you do certain work (what kind of work??) would seem to me to be rather foolhardy at best.

If you're with any number of the internet based agencies or an agency which functions more like a talent agency, non-exclusivity would make sense.

Just for the kicks I decided to read it, a very helpful piece of info for models wanting to be with an agency... I don't lol let's just say I had a bad experience. :-p

I had a really bad experience when I signed with an agency this year also.
I would watch out for the agencies that are not well known, it may not be true for all unknown agencies but this one was bought out and switched their name hmmmmm I wonder why! I am working with an agent right now that can market me for swimwear,lingerie and 1st it was gentlemen's magazine's but now it's men's magazine's. I don't really want to go in that direction even if the $ is good.(Penthouse for instance) 
Kisses,
MEL
ps Oh the agent did make a comment, "Do you think when Tommy Hilfiger need's a model he goes to OMP or MM to get one!"

Mayanlee wrote:

No. 

They got me paying work, albeit nothing I would consider "creative."

I figured when my booker got me (paid) work, he was doing his job. When my booker threw out a shot that was inappropriate to the rest of the portfolio, it's because he knew the market and his clients better. When my booker told me doing something in particular was not in my best interest because _______________, I listened.

Only during my second incarnation modeling these past few years did my own taste take sway and I did more "interesting" work but it certainly could not be considered a cash-positive endeavor.

Who are you talking about anyway? An agency such as Click or Average Joe With a Camera Who Thinks He's An Agent?

MayanLee! You so need to come back here!
Anyway, I am not speaking of anyone in particular. But many times I have had a model tell me she liked my work, would love to do a particular type of modeling for my camera, but her agency would not allow her to do that type. It seems to me that signing with an agency can be really limiting. I know that in my case and in the case of many photographers, I stay away from models who are signed by an agency because of things like that and unaffordable rates.

MELmoore wrote:
Zaika

ps Oh the agent did make a comment, "Do you think when Tommy Hilfiger need's a model he goes to OMP or MM to get one!"

I did read in some magazine a year or two ago about some well known agency who does in fact look on OMP now and then. As someone else stated in this thread, it would be foolish not to use all the tools available to find talent. Sometimes the best model for the job is a small time girl and one who is not represented.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
I know that in my case and in the case of many photographers, I stay away from models who are signed by an agency because of things like that and unaffordable rates.

Ya know what?  In all of the countless threads that worked so hard to place the fickle finger on the definition of GWC, you just did it in a single sentence by confirming it's more about seeking want than delivering need.  Congrats!

Hoot wrote:

I was a booker for a commercial print agency in NYC for four years. We represented over 700 models. I never had a model tell me that they were leaving the agency so they could freelance.

LOL... Jesus dude... you think they're actually gonna walk up and tell ya?... ROTFLMAO!  Let me drop a bomb on ya.  Your posting on a website that dozens of (arrogant, percentage grabbing, 'I'll book you when I want to') agencies (like the one you 'used to' work for) have probably lost models too.  Granted... the healthiest 'brick and mortar' agencies out there still have a strong future, but its websites like Model Mayhem that they would just as soon see banished from existance.  My recommendation?... Dont walk into ANY agency and mention 'Model Mayhem'.

area291 wrote:

Ya know what?  In all of the countless threads that worked so hard to place the fickle finger on the definition of GWC, you just did it in a single sentence by confirming it's more about seeking want than delivering need.  Congrats!

I am far from a GWC if that is what you are implying. I just do not do a lot of well paid work. I don`t seek it. If it comes along I usually use it to pay a bill now and then or buy a new piece of equipment,etc.
My emphesis is more along the artistic side of things.So, money is more limited there but I really don`t mind.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:
Anyway, I am not speaking of anyone in particular. But many times I have had a model tell me she liked my work, would love to do a particular type of modeling for my camera, but her agency would not allow her to do that type. It seems to me that signing with an agency can be really limiting. I know that in my case and in the case of many photographers, I stay away from models who are signed by an agency because of things like that and unaffordable rates.

I guess it depends what it is you want to shoot.  The average (I use the term as a generality) photographer on sites like MM, musecube and OMP are predominately glamour-driven, some strive for art (or "Ah-t"), but virtually no one would be able to produce an image that would be beneficial for a fashion model listed with one of the better agencies.

As to rates... well, that's the agency's job ... they get to pick the better girls cuz they manage to create and maintain the demand for those types and keep a consistency of quality product (in this case, the model).  It certainly ain't a case of on-line "anyone can be a model" syndrome, so since they manage the rarified, they get to determine the higher rates. The best I could do for myself through online was $125/hr.  The STANDARD rate when I was with an agency in 1984 (!) was $185/hr, lingerie was something like $225. Can't blame you for not wanting to pay that, but as in anything else... ya get what you pay for.

That's just business. It's nothing personal.

(Did that sound sufficiently organized crime-like...?)

Mayanlee wrote:

I guess it depends what it is you want to shoot.  The average (I use the term as a generality) photographer on sites like MM, musecube and OMP are predominately glamour-driven, some strive for art (or "Ah-t"), but virtually no one would be able to produce an image that would be beneficial for a fashion model listed with one of the better agencies.

As to rates... well, that's the agency's job ... they get to pick the better girls cuz they manage to create and maintain the demand for those types and keep a consistency of quality product (in this case, the model).  It certainly ain't a case of on-line "anyone can be a model" syndrome, so since they manage the rarified, they get to determine the higher rates. The best I could do for myself through online was $125/hr.  The STANDARD rate when I was with an agency in 1984 (!) was $185/hr, lingerie was something like $225. Can't blame you for not wanting to pay that, but as in anything else... ya get what you pay for.

That's just business. It's nothing personal.

(Did that sound sufficiently organized crime-like...?)

I dont want you to think that I am saying these models are not worth it. Its just that for a lot of what I do, that is a bit steep. However, if I am doing work for hire and hiring a model is required the models fee is built into my fees, unless the client has someone in mind and hires them on their own.

Select Models wrote:

LOL... Jesus dude... you think they're actually gonna walk up and tell ya?... ROTFLMAO!  Let me drop a bomb on ya.  Your posting on a website that dozens of (arrogant, percentage grabbing, 'I'll book you when I want to') agencies (like the one you 'used to' work for) have probably lost models too.  Granted... the healthiest 'brick and mortar' agencies out there still have a strong future, but its websites like Model Mayhem that they would just as soon see banished from existance.  My recommendation?... Dont walk into ANY agency and mention 'Model Mayhem'.

Well, Gary, maybe not, but you might be surprised at how much models tell their bookers. Especially when they're leaving an agency. ;-)

As for your obvious distaste for agencies, I understand your issues. I doubt any legitimate agency would support your group shoots. As far as I'm concerned, they're fine for amateurs that want to get together and make pretty pictures (I do that sometimes myself). But, if you really think that a photographer (or an ad agency) with a  $500,000 production to handle is going to go to some unknown model (or photographer) on some website, I don't have much to say to you. The issue has been discussed to death, and it's obvious that people like you have no knowlege how the business really works. If you think 20% for all the things an agency provides a model is too much, that just goes to further prove that you don't know what you're talking about. Now remember, I'm not talking about internet "agencies", or internet "managers", or modeling schools, or portfolio mills, but reputable real-world booking agencies.

Since I have been away from the industry for 6 months, I called a few bookers and a couple of photographers today. The agents are not at all worried about losing business to internet websites. The photographers (all working pros in NYC) would not consider trying to book (for a paying job) an unknown quantity from any website.  And by working pro, I don't mean any of the hundreds of portfolio shooters in NY, but the guys that shoot for Proctor & Gamble, AT&T, Capital Records, Manolo Blahnik, Bank of America, Canon Cameras, Merck, J. C. Penney, Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, and clients like that.

Sometimes a photographer or a scout will come to the sites to see if there are any interesting wannabes, and will ocassionally contact them to see if they have what it takes. I've done that myself. A few of the girls in the agency I worked for came from the 'net. None of them had a problem with paying the percentage, and all of them got more paying work from us than from all the internet sites they were on (put together). Then again, they all lived (or moved to) within an hour of Manhattan. Location is everything.

By the way, what's your experience in the advertising world? New York, Chicago, L.A., Atlanta, Miami? Booking national advertisements, TV commercials, bill-boards? I'd like to know where your expertise lies.

Zaika wrote:

Just for the kicks I decided to read it, a very helpful piece of info for models wanting to be with an agency... I don't lol let's just say I had a bad experience. :-p

Hi Zaika,

There is very little good information relating to the real work of professional modeling, so I like to point out that site when I can. Thank you for the kudos.

I'm sorry you had a bummer. Unfortunately, it happens.

Take care,

Hoot

Dan Howell wrote:

The logic in your post astounds me.  It's like asking people what they think of hospitals and decided you don't like them because all of the people were in pain when they went there.

LOL, Dan, I never knew how funny you are!

And, how on the mark in the rest of your post. Then, you work in the business every day.

Hoot