Posted by Doug Swinskey: 
now my first thought is he needs to be beaten with a shovel... 

May I lend you a sledge hammer?

Posted by Robb Radford: 

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 
now my first thought is he needs to be beaten with a shovel... 

May I lend you a sledge hammer?

well a shovel could look like a bizaar gardening accident..sledge hammer..i dunno...

Posted by CO Model Amber: 
You know theres a lot of "teen websites" that might have models that LOOK maybe 15, 16, 17 but they could REALLY be over 18. I've talked a few people who take pictures of models for "teen websites" but all the models are over 18 they just look very young.

I've even had offers to do "teen websites" just because I look 16 But I'm really 20 almost 21. 

You are correct Amber, but I know of a company that until about a year ago was using under 18 models here in Florida.. Doug probably knows just who I'm talking about. They did very revealing clothes and a fair bit of implied images. Funny thing, when things started getting tougher in regards to paysites and under 18 models, all their unders were pulled. In fact, one of the girls came back after she turned 18..

   Regardless, promoting girls that look underage, IMHO, only fuels the problem with pedophiles.. And lord knows we have had enough issue with that recently here in Florida..

Posted by CO Model Amber: 
You know theres a lot of "teen websites" that might have models that LOOK maybe 15, 16, 17 but they could REALLY be over 18. I've talked a few people who take pictures of models for "teen websites" but all the models are over 18 they just look very young. I've even had offers to do "teen websites" just because I look 16 But I'm really 20 almost 21. 

did you see the part where i told you he solicited a 15 year old girl on OMP..thats one that i know of first hand..
the girls on the paysites, dont look just look young..they are young..

Posted by Keith aka Wolfie: 

Posted by CO Model Amber: 
You know theres a lot of "teen websites" that might have models that LOOK maybe 15, 16, 17 but they could REALLY be over 18. I've talked a few people who take pictures of models for "teen websites" but all the models are over 18 they just look very young.
I've even had offers to do "teen websites" just because I look 16 But I'm really 20 almost 21. 

You are correct Amber, but I know of a company that until about a year ago was using under 18 models here in Florida.. Doug probably knows just who I'm talking about. They did very revealing clothes and a fair bit of implied images. Funny thing, when things started getting tougher in regards to paysites and under 18 models, all their unders were pulled. In fact, one of the girls came back after she turned 18..   Regardless, promoting girls that look underage, IMHO, only fuels the problem with pedophiles.. And lord knows we have had enough issue with that recently here in Florida..

yes, the same 15 year old girl was solicited by the folks your talking about..when i contacted the guy, he said..yeah the goverment tried to shut us down, but they couldn't... that would be the "TTB" site..right?

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 
If the parents are aware and approve, what's the point in worrying?  And are "teen sites" really any different from high fashion?  I've assisted on shoots where models as young as 14 were tarted up to look like 30+ strumpets.  Is it really so different when Conde Nast is footing the bill?

a bit different when fashion caters to the fashion industry in mainstream magazines and publications..quite a bit different when the paysites are catering to pedophiles..its not 14,15 and 16 year old boys pulling out thier credit cards to look at youngs girl...

just becasue the parents aprove, should we allow them to pimp out thier daughters to pay the bills on the mobile home..?

hopefully you understand the difference...

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by Keith aka Wolfie: 

Posted by CO Model Amber: 
You know theres a lot of "teen websites" that might have models that LOOK maybe 15, 16, 17 but they could REALLY be over 18. I've talked a few people who take pictures of models for "teen websites" but all the models are over 18 they just look very young.
I've even had offers to do "teen websites" just because I look 16 But I'm really 20 almost 21. 

You are correct Amber, but I know of a company that until about a year ago was using under 18 models here in Florida.. Doug probably knows just who I'm talking about. They did very revealing clothes and a fair bit of implied images. Funny thing, when things started getting tougher in regards to paysites and under 18 models, all their unders were pulled. In fact, one of the girls came back after she turned 18..   Regardless, promoting girls that look underage, IMHO, only fuels the problem with pedophiles.. And lord knows we have had enough issue with that recently here in Florida..

yes, the same 15 year old girl was solicited by the folks your talking about..when i contacted the guy, he said..yeah the goverment tried to shut us down, but they couldn't... that would be the "TTB" site..right?

You are correct Doug..  TTB..   And in regards to the fashion comments, and I may be wrong, but wouldn't dear old Abercombie & Fitch fall into that area, too???  Their models may all be over 18 but I've seen some that didn't look it; male and female..

  I'm no prude, but some days I think things have gone from being too conservative to too risque.. We need to find some middle ground these days.. Well, at least in regards to how the underaged are portrayed..

Posted by CO Model Amber: 
You know theres a lot of "teen websites" that might have models that LOOK maybe 15, 16, 17 but they could REALLY be over 18. I've talked a few people who take pictures of models for "teen websites" but all the models are over 18 they just look very young.

I've even had offers to do "teen websites" just because I look 16 But I'm really 20 almost 21. 

I am familiar with the websites that Doug mentioned. In fact, one of these guys joined my yahoo group and posted photos in there. I looked at the website, and the girls were under 18. One of the most disturbing was a photo of a young girl, her age displayed proudly, in a bathtub with sheer underwear revealing her pubic hair. Not illegal, but pretty close.

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 
If the parents are aware and approve, what's the point in worrying?  And are "teen sites" really any different from high fashion?  I've assisted on shoots where models as young as 14 were tarted up to look like 30+ strumpets.  Is it really so different when Conde Nast is footing the bill?

With these websites, the girls' age is the main attraction, plus provocative photos that are not just about the way the model is dressed or how she does her make-up (and most of these don't wear much make-up in order to look more amateur) it is about how the photo is taken, with emphasis on the sexuality of the young girl. The parents of these girls are exploiting them. Doubtless they claim to save the money for their children's education, and end up spending it all.

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by Robb Radford: 

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 
now my first thought is he needs to be beaten with a shovel... 

May I lend you a sledge hammer?

well a shovel could look like a bizaar gardening accident..sledge hammer..i dunno...

I have many clever getbacks if needed.  There is a book out of 50 things to do to people you hate.  But my friends will not let me read it.

I am an open person but there is bigger blight on the earth, on this industry, and on women than people who abuse the young.

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 
If the parents are aware and approve, what's the point in worrying?  And are "teen sites" really any different from high fashion?  I've assisted on shoots where models as young as 14 were tarted up to look like 30+ strumpets.  Is it really so different when Conde Nast is footing the bill?

Yes,  I do see a big difference. 

Though as I said in another post,  making girls look young is subjectively wrong.  Who is to decide what is sexy?

But there is a line between a young women looking adult and a child being abused.

I do have problems with the original Brook Shields images.  I have seen the originals and they made me ill.  That was not fashion nor art.

Contraditory maybe but I do see a line in the sand.  If you analyze the answer then I do not think it is hypocritical.

but I do not know the specific accurance that you speak of Melvin.  I agree that bookers who push such things are wrong.  I have been PUSHED to do some images I thought was not needed. 

The heroin sheik thing with all the underage models was a great example of this occurance.  No one complained until people started to die.

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 
If the parents are aware and approve, what's the point in worrying?  And are "teen sites" really any different from high fashion?  I've assisted on shoots where models as young as 14 were tarted up to look like 30+ strumpets.  Is it really so different when Conde Nast is footing the bill?

a bit different when fashion caters to the fashion industry in mainstream magazines and publications..quite a bit different when the paysites are catering to pedophiles..its not 14,15 and 16 year old boys pulling out thier credit cards to look at youngs girl...

just becasue the parents aprove, should we allow them to pimp out thier daughters to pay the bills on the mobile home..?

hopefully you understand the difference...

Yeah, and pedophiles would never be interested in VOGUE... lol

Posted by Anthony Citrano: 
]

Yeah, and pedophiles would never be interested in VOGUE... lol

Vogue bambini maybe.

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 
If the parents are aware and approve, what's the point in worrying?  And are "teen sites" really any different from high fashion?  I've assisted on shoots where models as young as 14 were tarted up to look like 30+ strumpets.  Is it really so different when Conde Nast is footing the bill?

a bit different when fashion caters to the fashion industry in mainstream magazines and publications..quite a bit different when the paysites are catering to pedophiles..its not 14,15 and 16 year old boys pulling out thier credit cards to look at youngs girl...

just becasue the parents aprove, should we allow them to pimp out thier daughters to pay the bills on the mobile home..?

hopefully you understand the difference...

I am not a fan of the teen websites either however I don't see any difference from a 15 year old model walking down the runway in lingerie, posing for vogue with implied nudity etc... I understand that these dirty subscribers are going to be looking online more often than in a fashion magazine but that doesn't mean it is different or one is better than the other does it?

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 
theres nothing more awful to me then the exploitation of our young women then these "pre-porn",  "teen girl paysites"..

i have nothing for contempt for the people that solicit these young women and their families that offer the girls up for a cash payday..

why i am bringing this up is, i noticed a famliar name pop up in the new members area..i dug back though some emails and found the same guy sending emails to a 15 year old girl, who's profile i administered on OMP ( igot copied on her emails)...you get 15% of the take..a paycheck each month..look at all the girls doing it..check my references...ect...

all the while, on his websites and profiles, he mentions his wedding and model photography.... but he never makes mention of his website involvement...now my first thought is he needs to be beaten with a shovel... 

what are you thoughts on this?

I'll bring the chainsaw if you bring the beer.

Posted by Ty Simone: 
I am about to get stoned to death for this.....

Which would you rather have? A pedohpile spending all his money looking at girls on the web and getting his rocks off, Or the same guy sitting in his van outside of your daughter's school?

There was a study done by a group of (MIT?) students in reference to nudity, pornography, and rape.

Here is what they found.
In Countries, such as Germany, Where nudity is a non-issue, i.e. is on regular television, is prevalent on beaches etc...  the number of rapes per capita was about 33% of countries, like the United States, where Nudity and Sex is a taboo subject.
(Actual States for 1999 - Germany .09 rapes per 1000 - U.S. .30 Rapes per 1000)

Also note, that since there are kids and teens on those same beachs, the number of Child Molestation cases was also much lower. (please exclude third world countries from this list the data there is not compiled, and according to a lot of organizations, sex crimes are unbelievably high)

You want to stop Child Molesters from Molesting Children? Unless the Supreme Court allows Castration, the best way is to feed their desire with Virtual porn.

We as a country though would much rather not deal with them at all, they are sick, they are wired wrong, they should be slaughtered etc.....

Go ahead and bomb me with stones.

I think we as a country are a bunch of hypocrits when it comes to nudity and age and sex and everything eles in that arena.

I tend to agree with the above; seen/heard to much from too
many people "decrying publicly" while privately viewing ...

BUT: in any case, I do -not- like what seems to be both the
web-exploitation of young-teens by parents as well as just the who-cares attitude of other parents when the teens put
up these sites!

Posted by Kuree: 
Call Child Protective Services or report to the appropriate authorities. This is so aweful. 

Unfortunately It is not illegal.
That is the problem with the laws here.

For example, I can take a Poser model (Poser is a software program) of a girl that appears to be 14 years old, have her engage in oral sex with an adult male poser model, post it, and it is 100% legal (Yes! it is 100% legal! The Supreme Court has ruled in Ashcroft vs. Free Speech Coalition That Virtual Child Porn is not illegal because it does not in any way exploit a child. However, in the same ruling, If I was to take the head of a real 14 year old and paste it on 18 year old performing oral sex, that IS illegal.)
To really complicate the issue, If a minor was to view the first image, It is not clear if it is illegal or not. By the letter of the law, It is, however, since the S.C. did not rule on that aspect of it, it is still up for debate. To date, no one has even considered trying to challenge it, but expect it to come in the near future, at which point, a lot of Adult Video Game makers, and Adult Anime makers better watch out.

Posted by Ty Simone: 
I am about to get stoned to death for this.....

Which would you rather have? A pedohpile spending all his money looking at girls on the web and getting his rocks off, Or the same guy sitting in his van outside of your daughter's school?

There was a study done by a group of (MIT?) students in reference to nudity, pornography, and rape.

Here is what they found.
In Countries, such as Germany, Where nudity is a non-issue, i.e. is on regular television, is prevalent on beaches etc...  the number of rapes per capita was about 33% of countries, like the United States, where Nudity and Sex is a taboo subject.
(Actual States for 1999 - Germany .09 rapes per 1000 - U.S. .30 Rapes per 1000)

Also note, that since there are kids and teens on those same beachs, the number of Child Molestation cases was also much lower. (please exclude third world countries from this list the data there is not compiled, and according to a lot of organizations, sex crimes are unbelievably high)

You want to stop Child Molesters from Molesting Children? Unless the Supreme Court allows Castration, the best way is to feed their desire with Virtual porn.

We as a country though would much rather not deal with them at all, they are sick, they are wired wrong, they should be slaughtered etc.....

Go ahead and bomb me with stones.

I think we as a country are a bunch of hypocrits when it comes to nudity and age and sex and everything eles in that arena.

Personally I would rather have neither. I mean a girl as young as 14 has no business posing provocativally and men who are old enough to be that child's father and watching these young girls in that fashion should be drug out and shot.

The parents that encourage it are no better and are robbing their daughters of a normal teenhood. When I was that age, if I ever behaved that way, my mother would beat me within an inch of my life. I think it's creepy personally.

Besides this site (http://www-perverted-justice.com) bust jerks like this and they do a bang-up job of it. I think we as adults need to set guidlines to protect the kids in the industry from stuff like this.

Posted by Alexandra Paris: 

Posted by Ty Simone: 
I am about to get stoned to death for this.....

Which would you rather have? A pedohpile spending all his money looking at girls on the web and getting his rocks off, Or the same guy sitting in his van outside of your daughter's school?

There was a study done by a group of (MIT?) students in reference to nudity, pornography, and rape.

Here is what they found.
In Countries, such as Germany, Where nudity is a non-issue, i.e. is on regular television, is prevalent on beaches etc...  the number of rapes per capita was about 33% of countries, like the United States, where Nudity and Sex is a taboo subject.
(Actual States for 1999 - Germany .09 rapes per 1000 - U.S. .30 Rapes per 1000)

Also note, that since there are kids and teens on those same beachs, the number of Child Molestation cases was also much lower. (please exclude third world countries from this list the data there is not compiled, and according to a lot of organizations, sex crimes are unbelievably high)

You want to stop Child Molesters from Molesting Children? Unless the Supreme Court allows Castration, the best way is to feed their desire with Virtual porn.

We as a country though would much rather not deal with them at all, they are sick, they are wired wrong, they should be slaughtered etc.....

Go ahead and bomb me with stones.

I think we as a country are a bunch of hypocrits when it comes to nudity and age and sex and everything eles in that arena.

Personally I would rather have neither. I mean a girl as young as 14 has no business posing provocativally and men who are old enough to be that child's father and watching these young girls in that fashion should be drug out and shot.

The parents that encourage it are no better and are robbing their daughters of a normal teenhood. When I was that age, if I ever behaved that way, my mother would beat me within an inch of my life. I think it's creepy personally.

Besides this site (http://www-perverted-justice.com) bust jerks like this and they do a bang-up job of it. I think we as adults need to set guidlines to protect the kids in the industry from stuff like this.

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 
If the parents are aware and approve, what's the point in worrying?  And are "teen sites" really any different from high fashion?  I've assisted on shoots where models as young as 14 were tarted up to look like 30+ strumpets.  Is it really so different when Conde Nast is footing the bill?

a bit different when fashion caters to the fashion industry in mainstream magazines and publications..quite a bit different when the paysites are catering to pedophiles..its not 14,15 and 16 year old boys pulling out thier credit cards to look at youngs girl...

just becasue the parents aprove, should we allow them to pimp out thier daughters to pay the bills on the mobile home..?


hopefully you understand the difference...

To me there's no difference, except perhaps where the decimal point is.  Parents pimp out their children for all sorts of reasons.  From stage mothers to little league fathers and everything in between.  In this case, as with high-fashion, everything is above board, signed, sealed and legal.  As for any "moral" implications, well, that's just immaterial to me.  As a self-professed pornographer and pro-sex advocate, I can't really go around judging the morals of other people, can I?  In all honesty, I think that excessive "morality" and this mania for protecting the "innocence" of "children" are among this country's biggest problems right now, used by conservatives everywhere to deflect attention from issues of real importance. 

Posted by Alexandra Paris: 


The parents that encourage it are no better and are robbing their daughters of a normal teenhood.

"Normal teenhood?"  Boy, you obviously haven't spoken to any teenage girls in a while.  I should hook you up with the 16-year-old who wanted to send me streaming video of her and her bf having sex...or the 14-year-old who wanted me to shoot her Suicide Girls set...Or the 17-year-old who tried to buy prints of my fetish art with her mother's paypal account. 

"Normal teenhood"?  Yeah, right.

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 

"Normal teenhood?"  Boy, you obviously haven't spoken to any teenage girls in a while.  I should hook you up with the 16-year-old who wanted to send me streaming video of her and her bf having sex...or the 14-year-old who wanted me to shoot her Suicide Girls set...Or the 17-year-old who tried to buy prints of my fetish art with her mother's paypal account. 

"Normal teenhood"?  Yeah, right.

Ever come to think that maybe these girls were not raised correctly? I have actually talked to a few teen girls recently and they aren't like that. Of course I also know their parents would not allow such a thing from their daughters. And they are around 15-16 years of age who want to get into the industry.

The difference between them and these girls that do the teen paysites is all about the parents who raise them in the first place which reminds me of a quote from one of the Harry Potter books where Aunt Petunia is talking about Harry's mother.

"If there's something wrong with the pup, there's something wrong with the bitch."

And it rings quite true for the parents that allow their daughters to be doing this in the first place. So don't blame the girls, blame the parents.

Posted by Ty Simone: 
I am about to get stoned to death for this.....

Which would you rather have? A pedohpile spending all his money looking at girls on the web and getting his rocks off, Or the same guy sitting in his van outside of your daughter's school?

A pedophile is attracted to children..period. Lets say this guy is at home, wacking off looking at an 11yr old blond haired, blue-eyed girl. Once he gets done fulfilling his fantasy from the web, he is going to go out in search of "her". So he will just so easily cut off his computer, an drive around the corner to an elementary school. He WILL FIND a girl that fits the description and that will become his next victim.

So basically what I'm trying to say is yes, this guy will only be visualizing online, but he will need to satisfy his urges so she will then be stalked. There is no right answer for your analogy Ty.

Posted by Shayuma: 
A pedophile is attracted to children..period. Lets say this guy is at home, wacking off looking at an 11yr old blond haired, blue-eyed girl. Once he gets done fulfilling his fantasy from the web, he is going to go out in search of "her". So he will just so easily cut off his computer, an drive around the corner to an elementary school. He WILL FIND a girl that fits the description and that will become his next victim.

So basically what I'm trying to say is yes, this guy will only be visualizing online, but he will need to satisfy his urges so she will then be stalked. There is no right answer for your analogy Ty.

You assume the theoretical pedofile has no self control at all. That's a fallacy. People simply aren't that simple.

Posted by Alexandra Paris: 

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 

"Normal teenhood?"  Boy, you obviously haven't spoken to any teenage girls in a while.  I should hook you up with the 16-year-old who wanted to send me streaming video of her and her bf having sex...or the 14-year-old who wanted me to shoot her Suicide Girls set...Or the 17-year-old who tried to buy prints of my fetish art with her mother's paypal account. 

"Normal teenhood"?  Yeah, right.

Ever come to think that maybe these girls were not raised correctly? I have actually talked to a few teen girls recently and they aren't like that. Of course I also know their parents would not allow such a thing from their daughters. And they are around 15-16 years of age who want to get into the industry.

The difference between them and these girls that do the teen paysites is all about the parents who raise them in the first place which reminds me of a quote from one of the Harry Potter books where Aunt Petunia is talking about Harry's mother.

"If there's something wrong with the pup, there's something wrong with the bitch."

And it rings quite true for the parents that allow their daughters to be doing this in the first place. So don't blame the girls, blame the parents.

I don't "blame" anybody.  As far as I'm concerned, if the parents are ok with it and the kids are ok with it, then I'm ok with it.  I don't have kids, don't ever plan on having kids, so it's really not for me to worry about OR judge.  I prefer to mind my own business, which I'm sure those parents would tell both of us to do if we were to meddle in their affairs.

Posted by Shayuma: 

He WILL FIND a girl that fits the description and that will become his next victim.

Not if parents, guardians and teachers are doing their jobs.  The problem is that more and more parents think it's MY job to look after THEIR kids.  Predators count on the fact that parents are lazy and teachers are overwhelmed.  There are solutions to both these problems, but a handfull of models and photographers aren't the people to implement them.

Posted by theda: 

Posted by Shayuma: 
A pedophile is attracted to children..period. Lets say this guy is at home, wacking off looking at an 11yr old blond haired, blue-eyed girl. Once he gets done fulfilling his fantasy from the web, he is going to go out in search of "her". So he will just so easily cut off his computer, an drive around the corner to an elementary school. He WILL FIND a girl that fits the description and that will become his next victim.

So basically what I'm trying to say is yes, this guy will only be visualizing online, but he will need to satisfy his urges so she will then be stalked. There is no right answer for your analogy Ty.

You assume the theoretical pedofile has no self control at all. That's a fallacy. People simply aren't that simple.

Wait, I'm going off what analogy Ty Simone wrote. Rahter letting them wack off to a child online, or going to your daughters school. Do NOT twist my words to make it seem like something they are not. I didn't say anything about a pedophile not having self control.

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 

Posted by Shayuma: 

He WILL FIND a girl that fits the description and that will become his next victim.

Not if parents, guardians and teachers are doing their jobs.  The problem is that more and more parents think it's MY job to look after THEIR kids.  Predators count on the fact that parents are lazy and teachers are overwhelmed.  There are solutions to both these problems, but a handfull of models and photographers aren't the people to implement them.

I totally agree with that Melvin. So many parents are out trying to "do their own thing" that they often neglect their children. I dont think that it is intentional..well at least hope not.

There are so many kids who aren't even supervised while they play outside. It's sad. Just because you are in the house an your kids are in the yard does not make them safe. We see this happen on the news everyday, and still no change.