Model
Jay Dezelic
Posts: 5029
Seattle, Washington, US
I am interested in learning more about some of the professional modeling sub categories. What is Goth and Alternative modeling? Is there a professional market for Goth and Alternative models? if so, where is most of it happening and what kinds of projects are they cast for?
Model
Sarah_Glam_Doll
Posts: 86
Philadelphia, Mississippi, US
I am an goth/alt model mostly you see the models such as myself at clubs or on here i got quite a few on my friends ...
Model
scarletdiva
Posts: 551
Los Angeles, California, US
a goth/alt model's gotta goth or alternative look... body mods (tattoos, piercings), dyed hair, certain fashion and makeup choices... i used to be pretty goth but now im going for versatile.
the market for goth/alt models is usually goth/alt magazines, websites, promotional parties... or for those types of fashion labels, or pinup sites like suicidegirls, godsgirls, fatalbeauties, etc
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Prepare for a mid-sized wave from this one, Jay!  We had fun with the 'fetish' version of this earlier in the week. Goth/Alt modeling is normally a heavily lifestyled niche concentrated predominantly on a look, normally fashion oriented (moreso for goth than alt). Actually, it's best to separate the two for simplicity's sake (the two, themselves, overlap here and there but are otherwise mutually exclusive). As with any niche, the popularity of the look sets the tone for the demand. It's become a lot more mainstream with recent movies (among other things) acting as a means of exposure (think Underworld, The Matrix, etc.). Man...the more I think of trying to effectively describe and isolate each one, even on its own, the more the mind starts spinning... Hmm....I think I may have a huddle with the brain here in a bit and regroup for a more coherent answer...!
Model
Envy
Posts: 11189
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Jay Dezelic wrote:
I am interested in learning more about some of the professional modeling sub categories. What is Goth and Alternative modeling? Is there a professional market for Goth and Alternative models? if so, where is most of it happening and what kinds of projects are they cast for? Quick and dirty rundown :
who they are:
tattooed / pierced / goth / fetish /
sometimes none of the above they just have a look that works well for alternative modeling.
Is there a market?
Yes and no. Someone will be along shortly to elaborate.
Most of the market I've seen is in California and New York , with places in between.
There are some overseas. Too tired to name countries at the moment.
I personally have been casted for country music videos / magazines / short films etc... since I live in Nashville TN.
Model
scarletdiva
Posts: 551
Los Angeles, California, US
a picture is worth a thousand words nihilus! just take a look at Nihilus's profile, or Lithium_Picnic, or Pat Thielen, or Aprella, etc, etc... theres some goth stuff goin' on there.
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
MadamePsychosis wrote:
a picture is worth a thousand words nihilus! just take a look at Nihilus's profile, or Lithium_Picnic, or Pat Thielen, or Aprella, etc, etc... theres some goth stuff goin' on there. Unexpected company to have my name thrown about in. Thank you.
MadamePsychosis wrote:
i used to be pretty goth but now im going for versatile. Awww...
Okay...trying to get a bit more out before resorting to visuals...
A quick figurative parallel: B&W is to Goth what color is to Alt.
Usually, a driving force behind the images is that of empowerment of some sort (ironically, some of this can come via a paradoxical submissive feel...hey I never said this would be a simple explanation!).
To put it overly simplistically, you can treat them similar to a 'plus size' niche for many models. It displays personal characteristics that the models wish to make visible to the world, in terms of finding alternate looks that can equally encapsulate beauty. Thinking of it this way is also the easiest way to arrive at answers as to how it is marketed, to whom, and the audience it intends to grab.
Hmm...still thinking...!
Photographer
Alex Mercatali
Posts: 453
Forlì, Emilia-Romagna, Italy
Goth comprhend 2 different kinds of style, one being really the gothic of medieval time, but they're rare to find, the other is cybergothic, usually people that loves ebm music (das ich, combichrist, just to name a few). Piercing and tattoo are a plus, not a must. I know many people in the italian scene and they don't have any. As usual, there's no distinction from a "classy" model and an alternative one, when we come down to piercing and tattoo. Ok, the latter usually have more, but nowadays some kind of piercings and tattoos are usually accepted even in high class (think of the madonna/monroe piercing or some small tribal tattoo). As for fetish, latex latex latex, or heavy rubber, and sometimes pvc. Apart from this, some latex shots are so good that they're really High class as a Vogue adv imho. Well, in the fetish you should consider about: bondage, bdsm play. So, who is the right model for bdsm? There's no such right and wrong, I mean, aw, cmon, everyone can play ;-) who is up to be spanked !?
Model
Jay Dezelic
Posts: 5029
Seattle, Washington, US
RoninGarou wrote:
Goth comprhend 2 different kinds of style, one being really the gothic of medieval time, but they're rare to find, the other is cybergothic, usually people that loves ebm music (das ich, combichrist, just to name a few).
Piercing and tattoo are a plus, not a must.
I know many people in the italian scene and they don't have any. As usual, there's no distinction from a "classy" model and an alternative one, when we come down to piercing and tattoo. Ok, the latter usually have more, but nowadays some kind of piercings and tattoos are usually accepted even in high class (think of the madonna/monroe piercing or some small tribal tattoo).
As for fetish, latex latex latex, or heavy rubber, and sometimes pvc.
Apart from this, some latex shots are so good that they're really High class as a Vogue adv imho.
Well, in the fetish you should consider about: bondage, bdsm play.
So, who is the right model for bdsm? There's no such right and wrong, I mean, aw, cmon, everyone can play ;-)
who is up to be spanked !? Is Goth then associated with fetish modeling? Or is completely different? Are the majority of Goth models into the same lifestyle? Or is Goth nowadays becoming more of a look that is not specifically associated with a specific lifestyle and choice of music?
Photographer
Alex Mercatali
Posts: 453
Forlì, Emilia-Romagna, Italy
Personally I prefer to work with people that not only look, but live that way. So, yes goth is usually attached to fetish, but it's always up to whom you're dealing with. Alternative is going mainstream (if it's not already mainstream in some way), you will see more and more people being alternative just for the sake of it. btw you've the kind of style for heavy metal stuff, like wearing a chainmail, brandishing a sword and so on  you should try and see if you like it.
Model
Jay Dezelic
Posts: 5029
Seattle, Washington, US
RoninGarou wrote:
Personally I prefer to work with people that not only look, but live that way.
So, yes goth is usually attached to fetish, but it's always up to whom you're dealing with. Alternative is going mainstream (if it's not already mainstream in some way), you will see more and more people being alternative just for the sake of it.
btw you've the kind of style for heavy metal stuff, like wearing a chainmail, brandishing a sword and so on
you should try and see if you like it. So, alternative is more of a broad mainstream idea than Goth? I have seen what I thought was considered Goth on cast members of some popular TV shows lately. - Maybe what I see is considered more alternative? Is the costuming style in the movie Matrix Alternative or Goth?
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Jay Dezelic wrote:
Is Goth then associated with fetish modeling? Or is completely different? Are the majority of Goth models into the same lifestyle? Or is Goth nowadays becoming more of a look that is not specifically associated with a specific lifestyle and choice of music? Both terms are so often interchanged, it's hard to delineate the differences. Goth is based on look alone (for the most part). Fetish involves a role...acts, as it were. As in, there are likely some fetish style themes that some goths would not consider approaching (ropework, bondage).
With the understanding that these terms are variable and widely argued about, I've used some MM models to illustrate what I believe the differences are (roughly) between:
Goth, Fetish and Alt.
Model
Jay Dezelic
Posts: 5029
Seattle, Washington, US
Nihilus wrote:
Both terms are so often interchanged, it's hard to delineate the differences. Goth is based on look alone (for the most part). Fetish involves a role...acts, as it were. As in, there are likely some fetish style themes that some goths would not consider approaching (ropework, bondage).
With the understanding that these terms are variable and widely argued about, I've used some MM models to illustrate what I believe the differences are (roughly) between:
Goth, Fetish and Alt. Does Alternative imply ropework, bondage or nudity? If so, how would you describe Alternative style without fetish, ropework, bondage, or nudity?
Photographer
AllenA
Posts: 591
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Jay Dezelic wrote:
Is Goth then associated with fetish modeling? Or is completely different? Are the majority of Goth models into the same lifestyle? Or is Goth nowadays becoming more of a look that is not specifically associated with a specific lifestyle and choice of music? OK... there's many different types of Goth... some may wear PVC, which can be a fetish in itself... but I'm here to discuss Goth... in particular, the female Goth.... You'll tend to see simularities.. lotsa velvet, white pancake makeup, red lips, a soft spot for Kate Bush...
Romantic era Goth: Deep green velvet (also black, maroon, and red) lotsa lace, Victorian-era, or Ren-Fair (medievel renaisannce) style.
Black goth: graveyards, bats, and the occult. Think of Morticia Addams. White pancake makeup, red red lips, black lace clothing with like really big sleeves.
BDSM Goth: PVC, leather, chains... but they still got that dark friggin' makeup under thier eyes. But they gots the coolest shoes.
Vampire wanna-be Goth: white silk frilly top, but the rest of the clothes must be black or deep maroon velvet I think.... no pancake make up... they are naturally white skinned. Won't accept daytime casting calls for some reason.
Cyber or Techno Goth: Likes extreme body mods & technological looking appendages... and lots of black. They got cool shoes as well... and PVC... ummm they also may use chains... but they're NOT BDSM Goths at ALL...
Gee... this is getting difficult. Go read an Anne Rice novel, get a Sisters of Mercy album, and download the track 'Black No 1' by Type-O Negative.
-Cheers... and black creepy spiders....
Allen
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Jay Dezelic wrote:
Does Alternative imply ropework or bondage? If so, how would you describe Alternative style without fetish, ropework, or bondage? Alternative is a separe entity. It deals moreso with aspect RoninGarou had mentioned earlier: tattoos, piercings. Visually, different looks fall under the "alt" label: punk, raver, grunge, maybe even a bit of skater-ish style. Truthfully, depending on who you talk to, variants of goth can also fall under (and could even be considered a subcategory of) Alt.
IMO, Alt does not imply ropework and/or bondage as it (like goth) is primarily "look"-oriented.
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
AllenA wrote:
OK... there's many different types of Goth... Lol! Exactly the extended outline I was hesitant to have to type out. So many substyles just in goth alone. Nice list.
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
AllenA wrote:
Vampire wanna-be Goth:...Won't accept daytime casting calls for some reason. Good stuff!
Model
Jay Dezelic
Posts: 5029
Seattle, Washington, US
The reason I ask these questions is that I am trying to figure out what style of modeling I best fit into. Maybe I will invent a new category like "New Age Renaissance" or something
Model
Samantha Grace
Posts: 3228
Los Angeles, California, US
Goth and fetish sometimes Inter mix.
But I do feitsh and wear latex and I am far from goth.
Some of it boarder lines.
Some people have called me retro goth... maybe it's the pale skin and raven hair?
But it's almost a opinion... what goth is?
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Jay Dezelic wrote:
The reason I ask these questions is that I am trying to figure out what style of modeling I best fit into. Maybe I will invent a new category like "New Age Renaissance" or something I really dig the look you have. Renaissance is a good adjective. My general wardrobe is a bit of an oddity as well, to the point where I'm claiming pioneering rights on "metro goth".
Photographer
AllenA
Posts: 591
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Nihilus wrote:
Lol! Exactly the extended outline I was hesitant to have to type out. So many substyles just in goth alone. Nice list. Thanks! I just spent a couple of hours with a goth model looking at locations for a possible shoot next month. She and I went over about 20 other types of goth, so this was fresh (like the scent of blood) in my mind.
I didn't even talk about the Metal Goths who have to stomp on any Goth who writes bad dark poetry that they read out in a soft, shy, quiverring voice. Funny thing is, both types of Goth like Joy Division...
But only one can like The Smiths...
(BTW: love your work!)
-Allen (creepy spider free since 1993)
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
Samantha Grace wrote:
But I do feitsh and wear latex and I am far from goth. Fetish, definitely. Very Betty Page.
Makeup is usually one of the key characteristcs that differentiates fetish and goth.
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
AllenA wrote:
I didn't even talk about the Metal Goths who have to stomp on any Goth who writes bad dark poetry that they read out in a soft, shy, quiverring voice. Funny thing is, both types of Goth like Joy Division... Still rolling from that one...!
(BTW: love your work!) Many sincere thanks. It's always a nice ego boost receving compliments from people who have much more experience than I (I've seen your site).
Photographer
AllenA
Posts: 591
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Nihilus wrote:
Still rolling from that one...!
Many sincere thanks. It's always a nice ego boost receving compliments from people who have much more experience than I (I've seen your site). Thanks...but your experience with models is much greater then mine. Come on over and we'll listen to Bauhaus and drink absinthe (by the GODESS, I hate that stuff)
EDIT: BTW... can I grab one of those cloves off of you?
Model
Danica Lee
Posts: 881
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
The opportunities available to goth and/or alternative models doesn't differ too much than commercial models. It's just the style that differs. Goth models still get to do runway, advertising and print, video clips etc etc. If you're going to try for that market, you need to be willing to commit. Many alternative and goth models have wild hair colours, body modifications and mountains of accessories they can bring with them. The beauty of 'alternative' modelling is that you can pretty much style your own look and go from there. If you're looking to be more of a fantasy style (D&D, medieval, knights etc) model then your look at present is fine - you just need to get pictures into your folio to confirm you cann pull the look off convincingly. There is nothing worse than a picture in a commercial models portfolio with dark eyemakeup and black lipstick with the note "this is me as a goth" beneath it. It just doesn't fly. I also love the versatility open to goth and alternative models. People are more likely to suggest something crazy to a model that looks a little crazy 
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
AllenA wrote:
Come on over and we'll listen to Bauhaus and drink absinthe (by the GODESS, I hate that stuff) *gag* Tried it for the first time about a month and a half ago. Felt nauseous the rest of the night. No matter how much sugar I added...it didn't help!
Nytevision wrote:
There is nothing worse than a picture in a commercial models portfolio with dark eyemakeup and black lipstick with the note "this is me as a goth" beneath it. It just doesn't fly. Praise you, my child!!
Model
Delilah - Sixthessence
Posts: 24
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands
My two cents, just because I can't stay away from the forums lately *shrugs* First of all, thanks Nihilus for pointing to my images #^,^# "Alternative" implies goth, fetish, cyber, [add something else here] styles, or a combo, or all of them. A model who does 'goth' automatically does something 'alternative', just because these styles are different from the 'mainstream' [even if I agree with Ronin about the mainstream-process of the niche]. Same goes for fetish. As for fetish, there are WAY too many fetishes and it's imho a very general term. Speaking of me, I model fetishwear [rubber, latex, masks..] but I'm really not interested in foot fetish. They both are part of the 'general' fetish universe, but they're very diffent. It's somehow a complicated topic to talk about Fetish does not necessarily imply bondage [ropework and such stuff], and bondage does not imply fetish as well [unless you consider ropes a fetish, which is even true, but let's forget this kind of 'fetish' concept a bit now]. Replying your question, ropework and bondage imply alternative, yes. How to describe alternative? It's easier to describe what it is not. Whatever, i'll try with a sucky example, but better than nothing at all: Picture a girl being photographed on a sofa, holding a teddy bear. Long brown hair, light blue eyes, pout lips and all. 'Mainstream'. Dye her hair pink or green, add her some tatoos or piercings. It will look different to you. That may be considered 'alternative'. Then you can add a thousand ideas, such her holding a bdsm teddy bear [they exist, I swear!] or some blood dripping and it will get even more alternative, as it goes away from the mainstream 'fashion' schema and it gets into the 'alternative' one. My idea is that alternative models are unique. And it's really difficult to explain what, in general, 'alternative' is. I guess you should check some portfolios/websites to get the idea Some hints: KumiMonster Josie Nutter Morgana Darenzia ChinaGirl Elva Elin Strigå Alyz FeistyDiva Robert Chouraqui LithiumPicnic .. and many many others Hope it was useful o.o" regards, Delilah [edited: fixed the links]
Model
Danica Lee
Posts: 881
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Nihilus wrote:
*gag* Tried it for the first time about a month and a half ago. Felt nauseous the rest of the night. No matter how much sugar I added...it didn't help! But were you adding water as well?
*eyes off your method*
Also, igniting the sugar so it melts helps a lot too.
(OK, enough off topic prattle for me!)
Photographer
AllenA
Posts: 591
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Jay Dezelic wrote:
The reason I ask these questions is that I am trying to figure out what style of modeling I best fit into. Maybe I will invent a new category like "New Age Renaissance" or something Go for it.
Your 'Head Shot' 'Mesh Shirt' '#38' and '#185' do kinda give the impression of your (apt) description of 'New Age Renaissance' I wouldn't necessarily put it in the Goth catagory personally, but (although I still love the music) I haven't been in that scene for a long long time....
Although... if you put 'Mesh Shirt' and 'Head Shot' within a BDSM environment, you then look like a dominant.... not Goth enough for subcatagory #238: Goth Dom
But the pose and the clothes in 'JDEZ Mens Yoga Skirt' and ' #11548 Lace Covered Nude' and '#3633 Head Shot with Spa Coat' look lightly homoerotic (insert Seinfeld disclaimer: 'Not that there's anything WRONG with that').. and that's a different look altogether... but still not Goth...
The clothing throws me... really.
I think that you make many of the clothes look good: The sarong shot on the beach is cool... but I think it's because of your hat. You have a comfortable attutude throughout each shot though, and that's good. You seem to have pulled off a few different looks here, and that can't be a bad thing.
Sorry for otherwise hijacking your thread with my Goth reminissing....
Cheers,
Allen
Photographer
Craig Thomson
Posts: 13462
Tacoma, Washington, US
I should have called you to join me at the Fenix last night, you could have seen some fetish modeling up close.
remind me next full moon to call you....
Model
Miss Christina
Posts: 92
Stockholm, Stockholm, Sweden
I am also still wondering where I fit into the scheme of things.. I'm not a goth, I'm metal.. alternative I guess since I'm not mainstream..
What do you guys think?
Photographer
AllenA
Posts: 591
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Miss Christina wrote:
I am also still wondering where I fit into the scheme of things.. I'm not a goth, I'm metal.. alternative I guess since I'm not mainstream..
What do you guys think? I'd love to have a whole thread on you alone. You deserve it. Especially 'cause of your 'legs' shot. Start one and I'll contribute (err.. if you want my rantings!)
Cheers,
Allen
Photographer
GOTHIC HANGMAN STUDIOS
Posts: 208
New York, New York, US
Jay Dezelic wrote:
The reason I ask these questions is that I am trying to figure out what style of modeling I best fit into. Maybe I will invent a new category like "New Age Renaissance" or something Well it's apparent to me that you dont fall into the "GOTH" category dispite it's diversity. My thoughts on your look is between "NEW AGE" & "ROMANTIC" but I hardly find the former alone to be flattering as a classification.Perhaps the combination of the two might yield something of more benefit? Now does "NEW AGE ROMANTIC" resonate for you is the question!
Model
Sirensong
Posts: 2173
Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom
AllenA wrote:
OK... there's many different types of Goth... some may wear PVC, which can be a fetish in itself... but I'm here to discuss Goth... in particular, the female Goth.... You'll tend to see simularities.. lotsa velvet, white pancake makeup, red lips, a soft spot for Kate Bush...
Romantic era Goth: Deep green velvet (also black, maroon, and red) lotsa lace, Victorian-era, or Ren-Fair (medievel renaisannce) style.
Black goth: graveyards, bats, and the occult. Think of Morticia Addams. White pancake makeup, red red lips, black lace clothing with like really big sleeves.
BDSM Goth: PVC, leather, chains... but they still got that dark friggin' makeup under thier eyes. But they gots the coolest shoes.
Vampire wanna-be Goth: white silk frilly top, but the rest of the clothes must be black or deep maroon velvet I think.... no pancake make up... they are naturally white skinned. Won't accept daytime casting calls for some reason.
Cyber or Techno Goth: Likes extreme body mods & technological looking appendages... and lots of black. They got cool shoes as well... and PVC... ummm they also may use chains... but they're NOT BDSM Goths at ALL...
Gee... this is getting difficult. Go read an Anne Rice novel, get a Sisters of Mercy album, and download the track 'Black No 1' by Type-O Negative.
-Cheers... and black creepy spiders....
Allen ARRRGH NO!
Death by stereotyping..
Photographer
AllenA
Posts: 591
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Sirensong wrote:
Death by stereotyping..
Yes, but as a good Goth, you surely would have read Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, 'Death, the Final Stage of Life'
EDIT:
and what kind of Goth doesn't aspire to death anyway....
Photographer
Zeo
Posts: 311
Canton, Ohio, US
AllenA wrote:
EDIT:
and what kind of Goth doesn't aspire to death anyway.... One that likes the style and attitude, but deons't care for the suicidal philosophy perhaps?
as for alternative models, I kinda like them they tend to be the ones they will dye thier hair neon colors and do ANYHTING else Rediculous you ask them to. "normal" Models tend to be a LOT less open and restricted, although not always the case.
Model
Sirensong
Posts: 2173
Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom
AllenA wrote:
Yes, but as a good Goth, you surely would have read Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, 'Death, the Final Stage of Life'
EDIT:
and what kind of Goth doesn't aspire to death anyway.... I dont think I have ever been a good goth...My eyeliner hand is too wonky.
(I thought that EMO had taken over the suicide/death thing now anyway?)
It sounds like a surreal episode of Charlie Brown mind!
Model
Alli Michelle
Posts: 1611
Miami, Florida, US
I think I qualify as an alt model.I used to have piercings and crazy hair but I dyed it black and took them out to give myself a more versatile look.But for the question of what an alt model is I'd say they are anything different from a commercial model.I think Goth models tend to be the leading group of the alt models.It's what I see most of.I'd like to think of myself as (and I hate to try to label it) punk/raver kind of model.I like costuming the most though.
Photographer
GOTHIC HANGMAN STUDIOS
Posts: 208
New York, New York, US
AllenA wrote:
EDIT:
and what kind of Goth doesn't aspire to death anyway.... Not all Goths aspire towards death in some hellbent nihilistic fashion,some of us embrace the greater mysteries of life and death. My thoughts are we choose to acknowlege the brutality and ugliness that so often accompany human nature.
Goths often do have a wicked playfull sense of humor and are often not as limited in self expression we can enjoy rays sunlight on a spiders web or a skull!
Photographer
Alex Mercatali
Posts: 453
Forlì, Emilia-Romagna, Italy
Zeo wrote:
and do ANYHTING else Rediculous you ask them to. "normal" Models tend to be a LOT less open and restricted, although not always the case. that's why I LOVE them
one day I worked with a "normal" girl, she couldn't get into the mood, I needed her angry... I started spitting nasty comment about her, and nothing, she was still laughing... man... I threw at her some really big&heavy pillows, and NOTHING !
she was rotfl all the time
|
We had fun with the 'fetish' version of this earlier in the week. 
