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What am I doing wrong?
Good morning ladies & gents, I was hoping you could help me with something. I only recently really noticed this trend, because of a question that was asked on the main forum. I am a very new photographer, and am aware of how much better pictures are if there is a makeup artist, even one as new to his or her craft as I am to mine. Accordingly, when I set up a shoot I contact prospective makeup artists and hair stylists with the details of what I'm doing and the kind of concept I'd like from them, and ask what they would require in order to be interested. (Most in my area don't have posted rates, so I assume we're going to negotiate, which is fine.) I generally ask people who are intermediate level, because the full-time professionals are making a salary commensurate with their experience, and since I'm new and not shooting for clients, all costs are out of my pocket. All of which is fine. I seem to be doing something wrong, though, because for the life of me I can't get people to respond. I have one makeup artist that I work with regularly, because she's interested and able, and I finally got another to respond with her rates and the willingness to work with me. But that's it, and I've contacted dozens over the months, even brand new beginners who I would think would jump at the chance to work, even with a beginning photographer. (I'm one of the few who is actually willing to cover kit fees even on a collaboration where we're all working in trade.) I genuinely don't know what's wrong with my approach, and was wondering if y'all could give me some impartial feedback. Is it that I'm a beginner? If so, why would someone object to working with me for pay, where they're not interested in receiving images? Do I just smell bad? Feb 27 06 11:42 am Link Sita Mae Edwards wrote: thats very odd. Most people will respond I would imagine, I always do, even if I know they are not going to pay my rate. Do you have a sample of one email you sent to post, maybe there is something you are saying thats turning them off? Feb 27 06 11:57 am Link It doesn't help that you're starting off in one of the worst, most difficult places to start off. I'm a local boy myself. Feb 27 06 12:38 pm Link Mary wrote: I recently cleared out a bunch of trash and sent, but I'll jot down a fairly standard Sita proposal today and post it here so you can see and critique. Thank you for taking the time, Mary. Feb 27 06 12:45 pm Link Marko Cecic-Karuzic wrote: It really is challenging. The up side is that there are lots of full figured models here, so I'm okay on that front. Now if I could just find a variety of people to doll them up! Feb 27 06 12:51 pm Link Mary, Here's one I wrote today. To be fair, I do expect a response to this one, because it is addressed to a stylist who has already returned the interest in working with me, and we are talking about a couple of conceptual shoots. However, this is generally the tone and style of the notes I send. (Names and MM#'s edited out to make this more generic.) "Hi [edited], "I am talking to a model (#[edited]) who is brand new, and has wonderful features and statistics for commercial plus modeling. I've sent her a message proposing that we set up a shoot to get her started with a commercial/casual beginning portfolio to take to agencies and such, and she's interested. I think she has a lot of potential, and I'd like to try to do this right, and get a stylist (you!) involved. "Since this is not all super fun and artistic and edgy like some of the other things we're talking about doing, I don't expect that you'd do this for free. (She and I are working together on a TFCD basis.) What I would like to know is under what circumstances you might be interested in working with us. I'm aiming for a weekend day in the Financial District in San Francisco - there's a great courtyard that I'm hoping we won't get kicked out of, if we can get a day with decent weather. "I'd like to come out of the shoot with four or five solid images for her: one or two headshots (both with soft, natural makeup and hair), a swimsuit image, and a couple of casual clothing shots (one full length and one 3/4). "What do you think? Sita" Is there anything that leaps out about my tone, or grammar, or general approach? Thank you for your help, I appreciate it. Feb 27 06 06:21 pm Link Sita Mae Edwards wrote: Never paid anybody for portfolio work. I was a student and I hooked up with some people by which I met more people and so on and so forth. Feb 27 06 06:30 pm Link Sita Mae Edwards wrote: ok, let me be blunt and read this like a typical ADHD stylist. No offense, you are probably one of the nicest photographers on MM. Feb 27 06 07:46 pm Link Well, I don't know that this is helpful; but if I were a sylist/MUA whatever, I see no obstacles to working with you at all. Your satirized letter aside, your pictures don't say amateur at all. Virtually without exception they bespeak a clear unified vision of what you are about. They are very consistent in quality. Your communication skills are considerable. You choose your words carefully, proofread what you've written and you show what appears to be very genuine respect for the time, experience and goals of the person you are contacting. I do agree that you perhaps express some measure of doubt in your email that might leave an interested party of any status or specialty feeling a little cold about the project; but nothing that would prevent someone from, oh, I don't know, returning your email as a courtesy at least? It may be that you are being perceived as having an axe to grind in the plus size models department (I don't get that; but some people are excessively literal). Try to avoid creating that impression. It occurs to me we may be talking more about a question of common courtesy here. You sure seem to extend it and nothing I have seen suggests you deserve anything less in return. I finish all my first contact emails with a wish for success and a polite request for a reply either for or against so that if the latter, I will make a note not to bother them again. Most people will jump at the opportunity to reduce the clutter that the internet introduces into our lives and then at least you'll know where you stand with that individual. Again, I think your work is exceptional. Good luck to you in this and everything else to which you apply yourself. Clark Feb 27 06 08:08 pm Link I've never had much luck geting MUA/Stylist from MM or OMP. Like you I have not figured out why. I do all kinds of edgy and artsitic images and the MUAs that I've worked with are given a lot of creative lattiude but it's still not enough. Here are my observations and a number of MUA/Stylist may not agree with what I'm going to say, but it's my opinion and experience: - MM and OMP tend to attract established MUAs, so if you want to shoot with them you are likely gonna have to pay and often thier rates are more than market. If you are looking for to find MUAs the better places to find MUAs are: - Make Up Counters at Department Stores - especailly the MAC counters - Beauty Schools - Theatre companies - local bridal magazines The first two in particular often have talented up and comers that are eager to get images in thier books but be warned that they may not have the best make-up for photography so screen this out. - Good MUA are in the majority of markets are in short supply which is why they can charge so much. NY and LA they are more than thier fair share but its obvious why this is the case. Also , there are a lot of Make Up Appliers and not as many Artists. Be prepared to schedule around thier schedules. If I know that a ceratin skilled MUA is available for certain days in the next month and I find it easier to schedule models to work on those days than to have a model then search for the MUA with the skill sets I need. - MUA tend to clique and pack with certain photographers, especially if they are goodand those photographer tend to keep them fairly busy. Also MUA toleranaces for oustanding images are more accute than models because they are looking usually for head shots and photography that emphasizes fine detail and photographers that tend to shoot color as opposed to b/w and images that deemphasize the face (hoe can anyone see thier work?). If they find a few good photographers that meet this criteria and keeps them busy then they would rather stick with them than branch out. - Like serious photographers, serious MUAs spend a lot of money on training and supplies so its little surprise that most here will want to charge. Ask for rates and be prepared to pay if you are shooting a specific vision but dangle TFP if you can allow them total creative freedom in the shoot. - Try to schedule more than one model and get the day rate. MUAs like bulk shoots where they can get a lot done in minimal time. You may be able to convince a good MUA to do a shoot with 3-5 model as opposed to one for TFP because not only it is it more cost effective for the MUA but its time effeicent. Several looks for one days worth of shooting and more then enough looks to fill out the portoflio. - Consider trading shoots for services where you will shoot what ever the MUA needs one day in exchange for them providing MUA service for one of your shoots on another. Feb 27 06 09:58 pm Link well i would work with you  the "e-mail" that you had and mary "rewrote" was kinda how i read it. becaue I have worked with people who dont get the proper permits and what not, you need permits to shoot in public spaces. so i would at least arrange that. and thanks for atleast paying a kit fee. but good luck. , Mandy of Deadly Design Make-up Artistry Feb 27 06 10:06 pm Link Oh, my God, Mary, I can't decide whether to laugh or crawl back under my cozy little rock! It never even occurred to me to see things that way. Now that you point it out, it makes sense, but oy. What would be a better way to word my letter? Feb 27 06 10:42 pm Link The Face of Things wrote: Clark, thank you for the very thoughtful response. I really appreciate you taking the time to look at this with me. Now that I re-read, I see what you mean about leaving someone cold. I'm just not sure how to approach it - I know perfectly well that no creative stylist is going to be excited about doing a beginning commercial book, so I want to both acknowledge that it's not a "Woohoo!" kind of proposal, and try to wrangle her into wanting to do it anyway. (Ha! Not so skillful at the latter, I'm learning.) Feb 27 06 10:46 pm Link RDMDC, those were incredibly helpful suggestions. Thank you SO much for making them! I am going to try several of those - we have one MAC store in town in particular that employs makeup artists who are clearly comfortable with really interesting and conceptual makeup. I think I'll go talk to some of them. You rock. Feb 27 06 10:58 pm Link Deadly Design Make-up wrote: Yikes. Learned my new thing today! I'll look into the permit tomorrow. Thank you. Feb 27 06 11:00 pm Link I was exaggerating a bit just so you would get the idea my suggestion would be to leave out the details the stylist doesnt need and just ask her what her 1/2 day rate is for a shoot. Leave out the part about no permit, the part about the model being plus, the part about the models needs and whose paying. none of this matters as you are the paying client and anything you add to that will just talk her OUT of the job. Be prepared to pay 1/2 the rate if you cancel day of due to rain. Paying a pro is great because then you can concentrate on what you need and what the model needs, the stylists job is to make sure you get it.Feb 27 06 11:49 pm Link Mary wrote: That makes perfect sense, you're absolutely right. It's a habit to give as many details as I have, because I usually work on a time-for-images basis, and those details are necessary for someone to make a decision. But if I'm paying, then that's all clutter. Thank you, Mary, that helps a lot! Feb 27 06 11:56 pm Link |
wear something low-cut in case we have to talk the cop into letting us shoot a few more frames. Dont polish your running shoes until day of because the shoot is off if the weather sucks so hold the day, dont make any plans..... but chances are we won't shoot anyway. 
