Virginia Savelle wrote:
Why are you so sure I can't use more than five?
Why should quality images go to waste?
As the photographer, do you delete everything except those five images? 

My images go to many sources, and some images fit better into different groupings.  Why is this simple design concept so hard to understand?

Hmm.  Lets look at it this way.  In a trade where there are many participants (model, make up artist, hair stylist,  wardrobe stylist/designer) involve.

  So, one photo shoot with two looks.  The photographer will have to modify, retouch images for all the participants and note that they all don't need the same type of image.  So, for each look, two images for the model, two images for the makeup artist , two images for the hair stylist and two images for the wardrobe stylist, that is eight images for retouching.  Do you have any idea how long it takes to retouch each image if 1.  model have bad skin, 2. bad makeup job, 3.  bad hair,  4. bad weather, etc. ?

Karl Yamashita wrote:

I agree with DJH, if you let the model edit the photos, then its not your work anymore.

and there begins copyrights and all that jazz....like I said before, the digital age has created a monster because folks think because they have something, they're entitled to, or can, do what they want to

Ruben Sanchez wrote:
Think of it this way.  The average model, when she works for a local agency gets paid about $135 per hour.  So if you're posing for 2 hours, you're doing $270 worth of work, and they want to give you only 4 photos? 

You need to quit working with these cheap photographers, and instead, make sure you get paid some money.  Once you get paid for 2 or 3 shoots, you can hire your own photographer, and get them to give you a copy of all the photos.   Just work it out in advance of the shoot.

I think you totally nailed it. See its the artist and pisces in me that just loves the creative process, alas i think things have come to an end in means of me and TF personally
thanks for the insight.

Virginia Savelle wrote:

You failed to answer my question.

Just like I said ... control and ego.

control yes...that's what copyright is all about
ego? perhaps. I'll take ownership of what I created, but not something someone altered of mine I don't like...why should the artist?

ChanStudio wrote:

Hmm.  Lets look at it this way.  In a trade where there are many participants (model, make up artist, hair stylist,  wardrobe stylist/designer) involve.

  So, one photo shoot with two looks.  The photographer will have to modify, retouch images for all the participants and note that they all don't need the same type of image.  So, for each look, two images for the model, two images for the makeup artist , two images for the hair stylist and two images for the wardrobe stylist, that is eight images for retouching.  Do you have any idea how long it takes to retouch each image if 1.  model have bad skin, 2. bad makeup job, 3.  bad hair,  4. bad weather, etc. ?

If you have that many "bad" people you might want to relook at your team....

MeganElizabeth wrote:

I think you totally nailed it. See its the artist and pisces in me that just loves the creative process, alas i think things have come to an end in means of me and TF personally
thanks for the insight.

well then when I figure the cost of my equipment and skill level that works out to $250/hr, so the model owes me utilizing mr sanchez's model..
So I think one look per change is more than fair

DJH Photo wrote:

No no no no sweet baby jesus no. 

That's exactly why I don't give out unedited images.  If you are going to be post processing you might as well just take the photo too.  Every image ultimately reflects back on the photography...so yes, I do prefer to have total control.

I can understand the concept, as I am a control myself.  Why do you think I want all the usable images?  Control.  It was a trade, so I want it to be equal.

Before you start with the start with "sweet baby jesus," are you certain that you are the very best photo editor out there?  Is it so unreasonable for a photographer to negotiate with a model after he has seen the quality of her editing skills?

There has to be some middle ground, because the opinions I read at total polar opposites.  Silly me, I thought photographers and models worked TOGETHER.

Abandoned Spaces wrote:
If you have that many "bad" people you might want to relook at your team....

That wasn't the point.  Even with good team, you still have a lot to retouch.

  Edit:

  By the way, look at profile before deciding what is bad or good.

MeganElizabeth wrote:

I think you totally nailed it. See its the artist and pisces in me that just loves the creative process, alas i think things have come to an end in means of me and TF personally
thanks for the insight.

Don't end TFxx, just up the quality/reputation of who you will do it with...

Ruben Sanchez wrote:
Think of it this way.  The average model, when she works for a local agency gets paid about $135 per hour.  So if you're posing for 2 hours, you're doing $270 worth of work, and they want to give you only 4 photos? 

You need to quit working with these cheap photographers, and instead, make sure you get paid some money.  Once you get paid for 2 or 3 shoots, you can hire your own photographer, and get them to give you a copy of all the photos.   Just work it out in advance of the shoot.

Don't be silly. The vast majority of models on MM are not agency qualified so it's pointless to throw agency numbers out there. I've shot agency models and they demand far less. Like I said, successful models understand the concept of quality over quantity. The less experienced the model in real world modeling, the more ridiculous their demands are. Even if I am paid to shoot a model, I do not give out more than 2-3 images per look. I treat test shoots the same way I treat paid shoots.

Virginia Savelle wrote:
Before you start with the start with "sweet baby jesus," are you certain that you are the very best photo editor out there?  Is it so unreasonable for a photographer to negotiate with a model after he has seen the quality of her editing skills?

There has to be some middle ground, because the opinions I read at total polar opposites.  Silly me, I thought photographers and models worked TOGETHER.

I am absolutely certain I am not the best photo editor out there, but I am the best photo editor for my own images

ChanStudio wrote:

Hmm.  Lets look at it this way.  In a trade where there are many participants (model, make up artist, hair stylist,  wardrobe stylist/designer) involve.

  So, one photo shoot with two looks.  The photographer will have to modify, retouch images for all the participants and note that they all don't need the same type of image.  So, for each look, two images for the model, two images for the makeup artist , two images for the hair stylist and two images for the wardrobe stylist, that is eight images for retouching.  Do you have any idea how long it takes to retouch each image if 1.  model have bad skin, 2. bad makeup job, 3.  bad hair,  4. bad weather, etc. ?

As a matter of fact, I do.

Have you even attempted to look at this from the model's point of view and at least acknowledge why we feel we are getting a raw deal on something that is called a TRADE?  I can't help it that my part of the deal does not take as long as your part.  I didn't create the system either.  I only know I see extreme points of view from very good photographers.

Ruben Sanchez wrote:
Think of it this way.  The average model, when she works for a local agency gets paid about $135 per hour.  So if you're posing for 2 hours, you're doing $270 worth of work, and they want to give you only 4 photos? 

You need to quit working with these cheap photographers, and instead, make sure you get paid some money.  Once you get paid for 2 or 3 shoots, you can hire your own photographer, and get them to give you a copy of all the photos.   Just work it out in advance of the shoot.

By the way, agencies sometimes send me models for testing.  Even with Testing, they still have to pay me.  Sometimes I do it for trade if it fits the theme that I want to work on.

  Do you think majority of models on here are agencies represented?

PYPI FASHION wrote:

Don't be silly. The vast majority of models on MM are not agency qualified so it's pointless to throw agency numbers out there. I've shot agency models and they demand far less. Like I said, successful models understand the concept of quality over quantity. The less experienced the model in real world modeling, the more ridiculous their demands are. Even if I am paid to shoot a model, I do not give out more than 2-3 images per look. I treat test shoots the same way I treat paid shoots.

let me explain TFCD in terms that is more palatable....
let's say you're a recording artist like Prince and you recorded 300 songs. You let your "friend" have 290 of them because he worked with you on the recordings..played guitar even. Now "friend" puts them on the internet and you become a household name. Your "friend" thinks he did you a favor and now you want to become a big name by selling the last 10 or so songs you have left.
What's wrong with that picture? Simple..."friend" established that your work, although enjoyable, was worthless because he gave it away, and it wasn't his call to make.
Second, I've listened to the majority of your work for free...why the hell would I pay for 10?

ChanStudio wrote:

By the way, agencies sometimes send me models for testing.  Even with Testing, they still have to pay me.  Sometimes I do it for trade if it fits the theme that I want to work on.

  Do you think majority of models on here are agencies represented?

Not only that. I've never had a booker ask me for a cd of all the images. I think bookers at an agency know a little more about real world modeling that internet models.

Hamza wrote:
LMAO!

I just went through this with a model I JUST shot...

I normally send out 'Digital Proofs', 400dpi x 400dpi high quality JPEGs with the words "Proof Do Not Copy" across the image.  I send Digital Proofs of every image shot even if I shoot the clouds.  I have nothing to hide from the model.  Each image is numbered.  The model is free to choose her favorites for me to look over and give her the BEST images that are acceptable to me and to her.

Well, this particular model posted one of those pics on MM and MySpace and I got a list of over 100 images that she wanted.  This is ludicrous. 

When I talked to her about taking down the Digital Proofs she refused and stated that the pictures were as much hers as they were mine.  WRONG!

The photographer OWNS the copyrights and by doing so, no one is allowed by US Copyright Law to alter or use images which you do not own the Copyrights to.

Because so many models don't understand this, photographers just limit the amount of images they put in the hands of the models.

Just because you are in a picture does not mean you can do whatever you want to or with the image unless you have 'Written Permission' from the copyright holder(Photographer). 

I will continue to send out 'Digital Proofs' of all images shot only the "Proof Do Not Copy" will not only be larger, but it will also include "Do Not Post Online" and be of a lesser quality.

LOL..there's nothing like that sense of entitlement..just a bunch of Cartman's going "I'll do what I want!!"

Virginia Savelle wrote:

As a matter of fact, I do.

Have you even attempted to look at this from the model's point of view and at least acknowledge why we feel we are getting a raw deal on something that is called a TRADE?  I can't help it that my part of the deal does not take as long as your part.  I didn't create the system either.  I only know I see extreme points of view from very good photographers.

Yes I have and I think it is up to you to decide if you want quality or quantity.  Look at this way.  I do have clients that want pics of them.  They pay me for taking their pics and they still have to buy prints from me.  Not only that, I have in the past posted their images for advertisement and they are OK with it.

  The question is, do you want quality or quantity?  If you want total control and you want quantity.  Just go out and buy a digital camera and do a self portrait.  Or work with photographers that willing to give you all the images.

DJH Photo wrote:
I am absolutely certain I am not the best photo editor out there, but I am the best photo editor for my own images

It's that kind of ego and refusal to explore that prevents even greater art from being created.  A fresh eye very often sees things that you don't.

PYPI FASHION wrote:

Don't be silly. The vast majority of models on MM are not agency qualified so it's pointless to throw agency numbers out there. I've shot agency models and they demand far less. Like I said, successful models understand the concept of quality over quantity. The less experienced the model in real world modeling, the more ridiculous their demands are. Even if I am paid to shoot a model, I do not give out more than 2-3 images per look. I treat test shoots the same way I treat paid shoots.

What he said ^^^ makes sense

MeganElizabeth wrote:
I think you totally nailed it. See its the artist and pisces in me that just loves the creative process, alas i think things have come to an end in means of me and TF personally
thanks for the insight.

mabey 6 photos touched up.
I dont know who you are workin with my my models get a pdf file with all of the images(low res) and 4-6 images touched up(Thats touched up with at least 1.5 hours per image) thats a lot of work. $35.00 per image to retouch is $210(just for retouching them up), plus what is charged per hour normally $100/hr even 1 hour of shooting thats $310

Virginia Savelle wrote:

It's that kind of ego and refusal to explore that prevents even greater art from being created.  A fresh eye very often sees things that you don't.

no, that's what keeps artists from starving to death

ChanStudio wrote:
Or work with photographers that willing to give you all the images.

They won't do that. They've seen the results from those photographers. They would rather try to talk someone who gives out selected images into giving out most of the images.

PYPI FASHION wrote:

Not only that. I've never had a booker ask me for a cd of all the images. I think bookers at an agency know a little more about real world modeling that internet models.

I agree. 

Virginia Savelle wrote:

It's that kind of ego and refusal to explore that prevents even greater art from being created.  A fresh eye very often sees things that you don't.

At a loss for words.....

MeganElizabeth wrote:
Also just a note, I thought this forum was under "model matters" and no offense, because I always love to have the opinion from the other side and appreciate it, but it always seem to get hijacked by those photographers who disagree and just seem to think their opinion is the only thing that matters...not that... thats any of you;) I'm just saying, i'd love to hear a lil bit more from the Models and how if they are getting this vibe. [/quote

if you want to know why it's going on, asking or getting the input of the folks taking the photos is probably the fastest way to get the knowledge you were looking for

Abandoned Spaces wrote:

At a loss for words.....

I wonder if after Da Vinci painted Mona Lisa if she asked if she could touch up the canvass with her brushing skills.

ChanStudio wrote:

Yes I have and I think it is up to you to decide if you want quality or quantity.  Look at this way.  I do have clients that want pics of them.  They pay me for taking their pics and they still have to buy prints from me.  Not only that, I have in the past posted their images for advertisement and they are OK with it.

  The question is, do you want quality or quantity?  If you want total control and you want quantity.  Just go out and buy a digital camera and do a self portrait.  Or work with photographers that willing to give you all the images.

Such excellent advice, Captain Obvious.  I have yet to read anything that makes me believe that a good majority of photographers are anything but stingy as hell with their TFDC images, yet they keep all the photos and do whatever they want later.  That is the plain and simple truth.

DJH Photo wrote:

I wonder if after Da Vinci painted Mona Lisa if she asked if she could touch up the canvass with her brushing skills.

If she was smart and saw a flaw she would!

... E G O ...

pullins photography wrote:

oh and to add, if there's any "photographer" out there giving away an entire CD of Unedited or Hi-Res images, he/she is helping to screw up this industry

THANK YOU !

MeganElizabeth wrote:
I dont get it.
What happened to the creativity?
What happen to the fairness?
What happened to being valued as a model?

Sorry to hear this, this is not how I run a TFCD shoot. My beleif it to give the model MORE then she expects and make them good quality (the best I can do). I prefer a happy model who reccomends me to her friends and wants to shoot with me again over getting off easy with just a couple images.  diverserity and numbers are always nice to give a model.
Good luck to you.

Virginia Savelle wrote:
No more responses ... goodnight and enjoy your debates.

Indeed..I am off too:
to quote Edward R Murrow, "goodnight and good luck!"

Virginia Savelle wrote:

If she was smart and saw a flaw she would!

... E G O ...

Mona lisa is so ugly, she needs to be repainted LOL

Virginia Savelle wrote:
Before you start with the start with "sweet baby jesus," are you certain that you are the very best photo editor out there?  Is it so unreasonable for a photographer to negotiate with a model after he has seen the quality of her editing skills?

There has to be some middle ground, because the opinions I read at total polar opposites.  Silly me, I thought photographers and models worked TOGETHER.

DJH Photo wrote:
I am absolutely certain I am not the best photo editor out there, but I am the best photo editor for my own images

Absolutely.  I can never understand this reasoning from models.  Part of my "look" and "style" is my selection process & editing.
Given that, in theory, a model decides to work with me based on those things WHY would she want to turn around & make something else out of my images?